Moron Motorists #3

[Lukeyboy]

Interesting to see that Queensland road rules about giving way to pedestrians crossing the road do not apply to Victorians.



But atleast Queensland drivers give you plenty of room when they pass you when you give way to someone crossing the road.



Maybe not. But atleast I can use the bike lane.


Oh FFS.

[skull]

I have noticed here in ACT that cars will turn left when peds are crossing but not fully from the other side. as in cut in front of them before they get to the side the cars are crossing on.

[KonaCommuter]

I have noticed here in ACT that cars will turn left when peds are crossing but not fully from the other side. as in cut in front of them before they get to the side the cars are crossing on.

In Qld as well

[jasonc]

Interesting to see that Queensland road rules about giving way to pedestrians crossing the road do not apply to Victorians.

I'd put a fiver on that being a hire car

[wurtulla wabbit]

Can someone explain to me why Aussies just walk out onto ped crossings regardless of whether a car could stop or not.

Get it all the time, just walk out randomly expecting a car to stop.
UK etiquette is... Walk to crossing , look, clear, cross.
If not, wait till they stop.
Nearly cleaned up a few here early in my Aussie days.

[KonaCommuter]

Can someone explain to me why Aussies just walk out onto ped crossings regardless of whether a car could stop or not.

Get it all the time, just walk out randomly expecting a car to stop.
UK etiquette is... Walk to crossing , look, clear, cross.
If not, wait till they stop.
Nearly cleaned up a few here early in my Aussie days.

Motorists are obliged to stop for pedestrians on a or about to enter a crossing.

[Lukeyboy]

There's being obliged and then there's just being a right of way d**khead. I almost took out someone at a zebra crossing the other week where they just simply stepped out as I was riding past. She was jogging along the footpath showing no signs of using the zebra crossing and then suddenly makes a sharp right and without looking enters the crossing. I was doing 45kph and if I had of hit here it wouldn't have been a very pretty result that's for sure. The ones that really s**t me off are the ones that do it 20m before/after the crossing. Especially the ones where your vision is obsecured by other peds/cars/trees on a corner. The crossing is clear. No one about to cross. Maintain speed around the corner/thru the crossing and bam someone is suddenly walking/jogging into your path. Your slowing down for a red light and suddenly people run infront of you. You taking off from a red light and suddenly someone is running into your path.

[AndrewBurns]

There's being obliged and then there's just being a right of way d**khead. I almost took out someone at a zebra crossing the other week where they just simply stepped out as I was riding past. She was jogging along the footpath showing no signs of using the zebra crossing and then suddenly makes a sharp right and without looking enters the crossing. I was doing 45kph and if I had of hit here it wouldn't have been a very pretty result that's for sure. The ones that really s**t me off are the ones that do it 20m before/after the crossing. Especially the ones where your vision is obsecured by other peds/cars/trees on a corner. The crossing is clear. No one about to cross. Maintain speed around the corner/thru the crossing and bam someone is suddenly walking/jogging into your path. Your slowing down for a red light and suddenly people run infront of you. You taking off from a red light and suddenly someone is running into your path.

Doesn't matter, as a vehicle on the road it's your responsibility to be extra vigilant at ped crossings, that means slowing way down if people are around even if they don't appear to have any intention of crossing the road because if they decide to and you hit them it's your fault. Out of self preservation I wouldn't go out of my way to jump out unexpectedly at a pedestrian crossing but I'm sure as hell not going to dither around and wait to see which of us is the most polite either. If you can't handle being on the road and following the road rules then perhaps you should stay off it?

[DentedHead]

Doesn't matter, as a vehicle on the road it's your responsibility to be extra vigilant at ped crossings, that means slowing way down if people are around even if they don't appear to have any intention of crossing the road because if they decide to and you hit them it's your fault. Out of self preservation I wouldn't go out of my way to jump out unexpectedly at a pedestrian crossing but I'm sure as hell not going to dither around and wait to see which of us is the most polite either. If you can't handle being on the road and following the road rules then perhaps you should stay off it?

I understand the legal obligations, but Lukeyboy has a point. These peds are unlikely to step out in front of a car like that, why are cyclists different? And just becuse the law says "peds have right of way, so it's the vehicles fault" doesn't make the peds "in the right".

Better to be wrong than "dead right"...


Dent.

[elantra]

Can someone explain to me why Aussies just walk out onto ped crossings regardless of whether a car could stop or not.

Get it all the time, just walk out randomly expecting a car to stop.
UK etiquette is... Walk to crossing , look, clear, cross.
If not, wait till they stop.
Nearly cleaned up a few here early in my Aussie days.

Motorists are obliged to stop for pedestrians on a or about to enter a crossing.

Dare i say off topic but...
There is a *new* pedestrian crossing on Latrobe St Paddington where you cannot see pedestrians until they are actually *on* the roadway.
It's a shocker.

Not so much of a critical design failure if you approach this Ped crossing on a bike.
Because you can sometimes steer around them...

[il padrone]

Can someone explain to me why Aussies just walk out onto ped crossings regardless of whether a car could stop or not.

Get it all the time, just walk out randomly expecting a car to stop.
UK etiquette is... Walk to crossing , look, clear, cross.
If not, wait till they stop.
Nearly cleaned up a few here early in my Aussie days.

Watch how they do it in Drachten, Netherlands....... and it's not even a zebra crossing

[Lukeyboy]

Doesn't matter, as a vehicle on the road it's your responsibility to be extra vigilant at ped crossings, that means slowing way down if people are around even if they don't appear to have any intention of crossing the road because if they decide to and you hit them it's your fault. Out of self preservation I wouldn't go out of my way to jump out unexpectedly at a pedestrian crossing but I'm sure as hell not going to dither around and wait to see which of us is the most polite either. If you can't handle being on the road and following the road rules then perhaps you should stay off it?

I understand the legal obligations, but Lukeyboy has a point. These peds are unlikely to step out in front of a car like that, why are cyclists different? And just becuse the law says "peds have right of way, so it's the vehicles fault" doesn't make the peds "in the right".

Better to be wrong than "dead right"...


Dent.

I have no problems with riding on the road. My issue are the ones that treat me differently because I'm on a bike or because they don't take into account their basic in safety by giving a quick look to the left and right be it at a ped crossing, intersection or on a stretch of road.

Like this carrot muffin who slowly walked across a road with 4 lanes of traffic with no traffic infront or behind expecting me to stop for him by continuing to walk at a slow pace into my lane. I was easily maintaing the 50kph speed limit but would he have done the same if I was a car, a bus or a truck or would he have waited 1-2 seconds for them to go past and continue walking across the road?


So if a child runs out onto the road infront of me and I collide with them I'm at fault? If a ped runs onto the road with a red light ped crossing just as I'm about to go through i'm at fault? If someone is jaywalking around a corner just metres from the ped crossing I'm at fault? If 2 girls run out (without stopping to make sure its clear) from inbetween 2 cars into a bike lane while metres from a lit pedestrian crossing I'm at fault? I'm slowing down for a red light yet some silly woman decides to step out into my path to run across the road and I'm at fault? You observe from 70m away someone at a zebra crossing with her back to oncoming traffic talking on a mobile so you start to slow down and its obvious she isn't going to cross but just as you are about to enter the crossing she then steps out without looking almost directly into your path with the car on your right already with its front wheels on the marked zebra crossing? How about a ped running across a ped crossing with the red do not cross light inbetween moving traffic? Had there not been one of those passenger trikes holding me and the bus up the bus would have been closer and I would have been futher back.


All of those things have happened to me in the past few days. I know the legalities but some people really need a bloody good smack to wake up to themselves. Just because they can't hear a car, a motorbike, a bus or a truck does not mean that its safe to cross. If there is a crossing nearby actually use it. If its red don't cross. Look before crossing is really a must that peds must do regardless of if they have the right of way or not!

[Mulger bill]

There's being obliged and then there's just being a right of way d**khead. I almost took out someone at a zebra crossing the other week where they just simply stepped out as I was riding past. She was jogging along the footpath showing no signs of using the zebra crossing and then suddenly makes a sharp right and without looking enters the crossing. I was doing 45kph and if I had of hit here it wouldn't have been a very pretty result that's for sure. The ones that really s**t me off are the ones that do it 20m before/after the crossing. Especially the ones where your vision is obsecured by other peds/cars/trees on a corner. The crossing is clear. No one about to cross. Maintain speed around the corner/thru the crossing and bam someone is suddenly walking/jogging into your path. Your slowing down for a red light and suddenly people run infront of you. You taking off from a red light and suddenly someone is running into your path.

Doesn't matter, as a vehicle on the road it's your responsibility to be extra vigilant at ped crossings, that means slowing way down if people are around even if they don't appear to have any intention of crossing the road because if they decide to and you hit them it's your fault. Out of self preservation I wouldn't go out of my way to jump out unexpectedly at a pedestrian crossing but I'm sure as hell not going to dither around and wait to see which of us is the most polite either. If you can't handle being on the road and following the road rules then perhaps you should stay off it?

So road rule 236 isn't actually a rule, just a guideline.

[LM324]

There's being obliged and then there's just being a right of way d**khead. I almost took out someone at a zebra crossing the other week where they just simply stepped out as I was riding past. She was jogging along the footpath showing no signs of using the zebra crossing and then suddenly makes a sharp right and without looking enters the crossing. I was doing 45kph and if I had of hit here it wouldn't have been a very pretty result that's for sure. The ones that really s**t me off are the ones that do it 20m before/after the crossing. Especially the ones where your vision is obsecured by other peds/cars/trees on a corner. The crossing is clear. No one about to cross. Maintain speed around the corner/thru the crossing and bam someone is suddenly walking/jogging into your path. Your slowing down for a red light and suddenly people run infront of you. You taking off from a red light and suddenly someone is running into your path.

Doesn't matter, as a vehicle on the road it's your responsibility to be extra vigilant at ped crossings, that means slowing way down if people are around even if they don't appear to have any intention of crossing the road because if they decide to and you hit them it's your fault. Out of self preservation I wouldn't go out of my way to jump out unexpectedly at a pedestrian crossing but I'm sure as hell not going to dither around and wait to see which of us is the most polite either. If you can't handle being on the road and following the road rules then perhaps you should stay off it?

So road rule 236 isn't actually a rule, just a guideline.

How do you guys remember all these specific road rules? Had to search that one up.

Anyway I'd agree with Andrew burns. If you didn't read his post properly he is referring specifically to ped crossings i.e. Zebra crossings. There is no way I would go at 45km/h on a bike while approaching a zebra crossing especially if I see there is a pedestrian near/approaching one.

copy and pasted

AUSTRALIAN ROAD RULES - REG 81
81—Giving way at a pedestrian crossing


(1) A driver approaching a pedestrian crossing must drive at a speed at which the driver can, if necessary, stop safely before the crossing.

random pedestrians crossing at random places on the road is a different matter

[InTheWoods]

Just to add to the farcical traffic management here, for some reason they have made the inbound bridge 40km/hr only recently
And that just serves to confuse motorists (and some cyclists) coming down the hill at 60-70km/hr.
Needless to say motorists think "WT?" and quickly glance in the rear mirror to see if anything catastrophic has happened to the bridge because they drove over it 30km/hr over the posted limit...

I guess the bridge has a structural issue, the inbound one is the old bridge. The outbound bridge is new. Actually I don't think people even notice the speed there. When I drove through this morning I dropped to 45kmh (naughty me, 5kmh over) and all 6 cars that had been following me in the right hand land then switched to the left and blasted past

Last week I was on the footpath just before the bridge and a huge semi tanker crossed the bridge doing about 70kmh. I was eyeing the bridge I was about to cross checking to see if it was wobbling or anything...

[Lukeyboy]

How do you guys remember all these specific road rules? Had to search that one up

Maybe us cyclists have read the rules before Generally rule 236 is related to pedestrians in such that pedestrians are not to cause a traffic hazard or obstruction. The main part of the rule is "A pedestrian must not cause a traffic hazard by moving into the path of a driver". Running out onto a zebra crossing without looking is deemed as creating a traffic hazard by breaking rule 236 despite being at a zebra crossing. The pedestrian only has right of way when they enter the zebra crossing. Its even been taught in schools to only cross at zebra crossings once the car has come to a complete stop or when its safe to cross.

Rule 231 is related to pedestrians crossing at traffic lights. "If the pedestrian lights show a red pedestrian light and the pedestrian has not already started crossing the intersection or road the pedestrian must not start to cross until the pedestrian lights change to green". You can be fined for breaking rules 231, 232, 234 under the jaywalking law. Unmarked (zebra crossings/lights etc) pedestrian refuse islands also do not have right of way and rule 230 appies in regards to crossing the road safely.

[citywomble]

One of the dangers of quoting elements of the law is, although the poster may be correct in what they said or meant, it can be misunderstood out of context and may reinforce incorrect views or acts.
Lets try these:

The pedestrian only has right of way when they enter the zebra crossing. Its even been taught in schools to only cross at zebra crossings once the car has come to a complete stop or when its safe to cross

The pedestrian has right of way the moment they put one toe onto the zebra crossing. Although schools teach kids they should wait until the vehicle (and bicycle) is stopped, that does not mean the vehicle can continue, they are required by law to Give way meaning stop. Assuming the pedestrian was already facing the crossing and looked like they might be about to this means that the vehicle should always approach so as to be able to do so. That's why it is not good to stand and chat at a zebra as this requires any vehicle to slow down until it is obvious they can proceed whatever the pedestrian does. I do agree that if the pedestrian is not placed so as to cross without a significant change of direction or speed, then a reasonable driver could expect to be able to proceed and the pedestrian would be careless to cross in an unpremeditated manner.

pedestrian refuse islands also do not have right of way and rule 230 appies in regards to crossing the road safely.

Whilst in some cases this may be true, in many many cases the presence of a refuge island is where a right of way exists.
Take the unsignalised slip lane at signals. This explicitly requires a turning vehicle to give way to pedestrians, crossing to the refuge or traffic island. Also, when turning into a road, or out from a road into another, all turning vehicles are required to give way to pedestrians who are or are about to cross that road (or at a T intersection are traffic on that road and crossing the T). This is where most pedestrian refuge islands are located and that makes the above statement very misleading and definitely NOT true in many cases.

Unfortunately simple statements out of context can 'inform' others wrongly, especially where common sense is not that common. Most drivers are totally unaware of their give way obligations to pedestrians when turning, and not just at signals.

[il padrone]

How do you guys remember all these specific road rules? Had to search that one up

Personally I have downloaded the Vic road rules in PDF so I can easily open the file.

Generally rule 236 is related to pedestrians in such that pedestrians are not to cause a traffic hazard or obstruction. The main part of the rule is "A pedestrian must not cause a traffic hazard by moving into the path of a driver". Running out onto a zebra crossing without looking is deemed as creating a traffic hazard by breaking rule 236 despite being at a zebra crossing. The pedestrian only has right of way when they enter the zebra crossing. Its even been taught in schools to only cross at zebra crossings once the car has come to a complete stop or when its safe to cross.

Such safety guidelines are frequently given by various 'authorities'. People always tell me I must ride single-file. Driving instructors will tell you not to overtake through an intersection or over a bridge, not to proceed with right of way when a car is approaching a roundabout from your right.

None of these are road rules.

As for a pedestrian walking onto a zebra crossing being a safety hazard , I think that idea that "that pedestrian may walk out" is entirely the expectation drivers should have. There are two parts to the give way rule for drivers at pedestrian crossings. First a safe speed, and second the give way.

81 Giving way at a pedestrian crossing
(1) A driver approaching a pedestrian crossing must drive at a speed at which the driver can, if necessary, stop safely before the crossing.
(2) A driver must give way to any pedestrian on a pedestrian crossing.

[London Boy]

I have no problems with riding on the road. My issue are the ones that treat me differently because I'm on a bike or because they don't take into account their basic in safety by giving a quick look to the left and right be it at a ped crossing, intersection or on a stretch of road.

Like this carrot muffin who slowly walked across a road with 4 lanes of traffic with no traffic in front or behind expecting me to stop for him by continuing to walk at a slow pace into my lane. I was easily maintaing the 50kph speed limit but would he have done the same if I was a car, a bus or a truck or would he have waited 1-2 seconds for them to go past and continue walking across the road?

The guy is committing an offence by walking into the path of a vehicle and could be fined for it. As a driver, you are nevertheless obliged to give way to him. If you hit him, you will probably be liable, notwithstanding any contributory negligence on his part.

So if a child runs out onto the road infront of me and I collide with them I'm at fault? If a ped runs onto the road with a red light ped crossing just as I'm about to go through i'm at fault? If someone is jaywalking around a corner just metres from the ped crossing I'm at fault? If 2 girls run out (without stopping to make sure its clear) from inbetween 2 cars into a bike lane while metres from a lit pedestrian crossing I'm at fault? I'm slowing down for a red light yet some silly woman decides to step out into my path to run across the road and I'm at fault?

Generally yes, yes, yes, yes and yes. As things stand, you should foresee that kids are likely to step onto the road, peds are likely to do stupid things, etc., and you're supposed to drive - or ride - accordingly. That's as far as the courts are concerned anyway. Manley v Alexander is probably the lead case. Alexander was drunk, fell into the road and was hit by Manley who was driving a tow truck. The High Court held that Manley was liable despite Alexander's intoxicated and unpredictable state.

Your defence, if you have one, is one of reasonableness. If you had taken reasonable care, e.g. by riding slowly, or by leaving a gap between yourself and parked cars so you get a bit more space when peds appar 'from nowhere', then you might be covered.

[London Boy]

So road rule 236 isn't actually a rule, just a guideline.

How do you guys remember all these specific road rules? Had to search that one up.

Just let you into a little secret... We ALL have to look them up.

[Mulger bill]

That bloke in the pic knew exactly what he was doing and crossing the road was only a part of it.

[Boognoss]

That bloke in the pic knew exactly what he was doing and crossing the road was only a part of it.

+1

This is one reason I find the Air Zound a handy accessory anytime on the bike.


Sent from my iSomethingorother using Tapatalk HD

[Lukeyboy]

As for a pedestrian walking onto a zebra crossing being a safety hazard

Failing to observe and wait for oncoming traffic to slow is creating a traffic hazard be it walking, jogging or running onto the crossing. If you walk out onto any road be it at a ped crossing, zebra crossing and traffic lights without looking then you are as the TAC's famous ad campaign says "A bloody idiot". Its well known that drivers don't or are unable to stop all the time so the Queensland Police Service inconjunction with councils, schools, The Road Alliance and theQueensland Government run several community safety campaigns about pedestrian safety.

Issued from the Queensland Police Service and Moreton Bay Regional Council as part of their Road Safety Is Everyone's Responsibility.

PEDESTRIAN CROSSINGS (ZEBRA)
Pedestrian crossings provide a safe location to cross roads, but they can be a hazard to drivers if they are not used regularly by pedestrians. Drivers must slow down and be prepared to stop when a pedestrian steps onto a pedestrian crossing. Although the law requires drivers to approach a pedestrian crossing with caution, not all vehicles will stop for you, so wait until the vehicle has stopped before you commence to cross.

Whilst in some cases this may be true, in many many cases the presence of a refuge island is where a right of way exists.

Yep. Peds must give way to vehicles as they have the right of way. In QLD they are only to provide a safe area for crossing on busy roads where the pedestrian can cross in the breaks of traffic or when it is safe to do so. Peds must treat them as if they were normally crossing a road unless otherside signed (zebra crossing/lights etc). Drivers do not have to slow down for people waiting in a similar sense to what you would expect if you were at a marked zebra crossing or lights. At some refuge islands you can usually find a sign saying cyclists must dismount and give way to all traffic. Many refuse islands are also unsigned. Hence the application of rule 230.

Pedestrian refuge islands are installed on a busy or wide road to assist pedestrians to cross the road in two stages. This allows pedestrians to concentrate on traffic from one direction at a time.
As refuge islands are not a pedestrian crossing, pedestrians must give way to any traffic and wait for a break before crossing the road.
A pedestrian refuge may be installed in conjunction with a pedestrian crossing, where the two-way traffic volumes or width of the carriageway make the crossing difficult.

Generally yes, yes, yes, yes and yes. As things stand, you should foresee that kids are likely to step onto the road, peds are likely to do stupid things, etc., and you're supposed to drive - or ride - accordingly.

That's not actually correct. You can't always forsee kids running out onto the road. Even if you could your not always in a position to avoid. Pedestrians also have the responsibility not to create a hazard. If they run out from behind a parked car into your path they are at fault (not much different from dooring a cyclist). If you cross within 20m of a crossing you will be fined. In Queensland you can and will get finned. The QPS are always handing out fines and stopping people on Adelaide street for walking out from behind buses or short cutting across the road by jaywalking to the ped crossings at Queen Street and King George Square.

[KonaCommuter]

Issued from the Queensland Police Service and Moreton Bay Regional Council as part of their Road Safety Is Everyone's Responsibility.

PEDESTRIAN CROSSINGS (ZEBRA)
Pedestrian crossings provide a safe location to cross roads, but they can be a hazard to drivers if they are not used regularly by pedestrians. Drivers must slow down and be prepared to stop when a pedestrian steps onto a pedestrian crossing. Although the law requires drivers to approach a pedestrian crossing with caution, not all vehicles will stop for you, so wait until the vehicle has stopped before you commence to cross.

This is appalling.

[il padrone]

If you walk out onto any road be it at a ped crossing, zebra crossing

That's how a zebra crossing works Of course don't do it without looking

Restating the rule (Victoria, but doubt Qld is much different). Note the reference to driver speed - something so many people seem to conveniently ignore. You need to be stepping out.

81 Giving way at a pedestrian crossing
(1) A driver approaching a pedestrian crossing must drive at a speed at which the driver can, if necessary, stop safely before the crossing.
(2) A driver must give way to any pedestrian on a pedestrian crossing.

TAC's famous ad campaign says "A bloody idiot"

That's in reference to drink drivers. Bit of a different scale of irresponsibility and risk to others.

Its well known that drivers don't or are unable to stop all the time so the Queensland Police Service inconjunction with councils, schools, The Road Alliance and theQueensland Government run several community safety campaigns about pedestrian safety.

Yes safety recommendations and guidelines are all wise to take note of, but they are just that, recommendations. Not the rule that applies

I really take umbrage at Police or Safety Council recommendations which, because of the willful law-breaking of motorists, advise people to do the reverse to what is the law.