Moron Motorists #3

open topic, for anything cycling related.

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby il padrone » Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:49 pm

redned wrote:He definitely shouldn't be along side the white wagon, unless it is indicating a right hand turn. It is different to a cyclist, which is allowed to pass a stationary car on its left. I don't disagree with positioning himself to the left of the carriageway, and even over the bicycle lane, to make the left hand turn, but he shouldn't be alongside.

"Shouldn't" and "must not" are two very different terms. One is a legal requirement, the other is not.

Like I said "unless QLD is very different to Victoria"....
Victorian Road Rules wrote:141 No overtaking etc. to the left of a vehicle

(1) A driver (except the rider of a bicycle) must not overtake a vehicle to the left of the vehicle unless—

(a) the driver is driving on a multi-lane road and the vehicle can be safely overtaken in a marked lane to the left of the vehicle; or
(b) the vehicle is turning right, or making a U-turn from the centre of the road, and is giving a right change of direction signal; or
(c) the vehicle is stationary and it is safe to overtake to the left of the vehicle.
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 18178
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

by BNA » Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:13 pm

BNA
 

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby redned » Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:13 pm

il padrone wrote:(1) A driver (except the rider of a bicycle) must not overtake a vehicle to the left of the vehicle unless—

(a) the driver is driving on a multi-lane road and the vehicle can be safely overtaken in a marked lane to the left of the vehicle; or
(b) the vehicle is turning right, or making a U-turn from the centre of the road, and is giving a right change of direction signal; or
(c) the vehicle is stationary and it is safe to overtake to the left of the vehicle.


Ah, righto. Definitely not in WA, then.
redned
 
Posts: 389
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:45 pm

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby London Boy » Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:07 pm

il padrone wrote:Yeah, maybe things are different in QLD, but in Victoria the rules are pretty clear

1. A left-turning vehicle must begin their turn from as close "as practicable" to the kerb.

2. A motor vehicle may enter a bike lane for up to 50m to enter or leave the road.


The driver pictured is just adhering to the road rules :roll:

Yes, there is a minor conflict in the words of the road rules. In Qld, a motorist can move into a cycle lane if it is necessary to do so to leave the road. From what you say, in Vic there is no requirement of necessity.

Bottom line all round is that you can't rely on anyone to follow the letter of the rules.

What you have to do is make some assumptions about how far the rules will be followed, how far they will be bent or broken, and ride to minimise the personal risk. Give and take, kind of thing. Put another way, you might get compensation from a driver at fault, if you can prove it, but all that will do is pay for the 24 hour carers who have feed you, clothe you and wipe your a*se for the rest of your life. Except in Victoria, where the statutory compensation will not go that far.
User avatar
London Boy
 
Posts: 597
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2010 2:43 pm

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby human909 » Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:00 pm

London Boy wrote:Yes, there is a minor conflict in the words of the road rules. In Qld, a motorist can move into a cycle lane if it is necessary to do so to leave the road. From what you say, in Vic there is no requirement of necessity.

I'm not sure what you are getting at here. If there is a bicycle lane on the far left side of the road (as is the usual position of the bike lane) then it is innately necessary to drive in the bike lane in order to to left! I think your distinction is non existent.

In short bike lanes are never a car free zone. Nor should they be!
human909
 
Posts: 4728
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:48 am

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby il padrone » Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:59 pm

The Victorian road rules give an exemption to allow driving in a bike lane for up to 50m, if necessary to enter or leave the road. Make of that what you will.
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 18178
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby London Boy » Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:42 am

il padrone wrote:The Victorian road rules give an exemption to allow driving in a bike lane for up to 50m, if necessary to enter or leave the road. Make of that what you will.

So, if we want to get technical about it, a motorist may not enter a bike lane to turn left if the bike lane ends at or before the junction. This is because he can turn left beyond the end of the bike lane.

But like I said, we cannot expect all road rules to be obeyed to the letter. We have to make assumptions and ride to minimise the risk.
User avatar
London Boy
 
Posts: 597
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2010 2:43 pm

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby London Boy » Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:45 am

il padrone wrote:Yeah, maybe things are different in QLD, but in Victoria the rules are pretty clear

1. A left-turning vehicle must begin their turn from as close "as practicable" to the kerb.

2. A motor vehicle may enter a bike lane for up to 50m to enter or leave the road.


The driver pictured is just adhering to the road rules :roll:

Or not, as it turns out.
User avatar
London Boy
 
Posts: 597
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2010 2:43 pm

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby human909 » Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:00 am

London Boy wrote:
il padrone wrote:The Victorian road rules give an exemption to allow driving in a bike lane for up to 50m, if necessary to enter or leave the road. Make of that what you will.

So, if we want to get technical about it, a motorist may not enter a bike lane to turn left if the bike lane ends at or before the junction. This is because he can turn left beyond the end of the bike lane.

But like I said, we cannot expect all road rules to be obeyed to the letter. We have to make assumptions and ride to minimise the risk.


That isn't getting "technical" that is getting daft. What you are suggesting and interpreting there is simply false. When making a left turn you should be as far left as is practical to make your turn.

Furthermore, just because a lane does not have painted lines THROUGH the intersection does not mean that that the "bike lane" finishes. Often line marking is not done in intersections to avoid confusion to other traffic.

London Boy wrote:
il padrone wrote:The driver pictured is just adhering to the road rules :roll:

Or not, as it turns out.

Twisting road rules so you get to win an argument is not what this is about. Cars are allowed to drive in and cross bike lanes in many circumstances, this is one of them.

What you seem to be advocating here is a road rule that enshrines and encourages left hooking! :shock: :lol:
human909
 
Posts: 4728
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:48 am

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby clydesmcdale » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:27 am

In the left lane of a 2 lane through intersection, Eagle St and Charlotte. Waiting in the queue about 5 cars back in the centre of the lane. We all take off as usual. Black 7 Series in the right lane decides he wants now change into the lane that i'm occupying, whilst in the middle of the intersection. He merges in close enough so that I'm able to slap his rear passenger quarter panel and yell some expletives. He then proceeds to pull in and parallel park. I roll past and flip the mirror forward in protest.

Stereotypes are based on reality, sense of entitlement in the big black euro-mobile. Felt like he was using nautical rules of giving way to the larger vessel.

Camera ordered a few days ago, can't get here fast enough.
clydesmcdale
 
Posts: 330
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:43 pm

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby il padrone » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:50 am

London Boy wrote:
il padrone wrote:The Victorian road rules give an exemption to allow driving in a bike lane for up to 50m, if necessary to enter or leave the road. Make of that what you will.

So, if we want to get technical about it, a motorist may not enter a bike lane to turn left if the bike lane ends at or before the junction. This is because he can turn left beyond the end of the bike lane.

:shock: :?: :?:

I don't know what reading you are making of the rule, but it is irrelevant to the situation Lukeyboy was showing us anyway, as the bike lane is continuing up to the intersection.

Raising any other scenario to this is getting a bit spurious. We could look at all sorts of possible permutations and combinations. So what??
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 18178
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby trailgumby » Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:17 pm

To the silly woman in the Beemer SUV this morning who stood on the horn behind me (unfortunately camera card was full, so no footage):

What was with the horn abuse at Sydney Road? Didn't like me claiming the lane? At least you passed safely by changing lanes completely instead of attempting a close shave, but the reason I filtered past you again immediately was that you guys were seriously holding me up, because you were stuck stationary behind the same car that was in front of me when you engaged in your horn abuse.

I really don't understand the point, though, of the second lot of extended horn usage after I'd rolled off Spit Rd onto Parriwi Road. The car in front of me was only a couple of car lengths distant. Was I blocking your view of his rego plate? Hope you enjoyed the cheery wave you got in response. :D

It was really nice to see you again 10-12 minutes later when I passed you on Military Road at the Avenue Road turnoff. I waved again, in case there was any doubt it was me. You really are a very charming lady :D
User avatar
trailgumby
 
Posts: 10201
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 4:30 pm
Location: Northern Beaches, Sydney

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Summernight » Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:28 pm

trailgumby wrote:To the silly woman in the Beemer SUV this morning who stood on the horn behind me (unfortunately camera card was full, so no footage):

What was with the horn abuse at Sydney Road? Didn't like me claiming the lane? At least you passed safely by changing lanes completely instead of attempting a close shave, but the reason I filtered past you again immediately was that you guys were seriously holding me up, because you were stuck stationary behind the same car that was in front of me when you engaged in your horn abuse.

I really don't understand the point, though, of the second lot of extended horn usage after I'd rolled off Spit Rd onto Parriwi Road. The car in front of me was only a couple of car lengths distant. Was I blocking your view of his rego plate? Hope you enjoyed the cheery wave you got in response. :D

It was really nice to see you again 10-12 minutes later when I passed you on Military Road at the Avenue Road turnoff. I waved again, in case there was any doubt it was me. You really are a very charming lady :D


:lol: (At your passing and waving)
User avatar
Summernight
 
Posts: 1512
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:40 pm
Location: Melbourne

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby jules21 » Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:02 pm

trailgumby wrote:To the silly woman in the Beemer SUV this morning who stood on the horn behind me (unfortunately camera card was full, so no footage):

get a or use your AZ and do the same to her when you're stuck behind her :mrgreen:
User avatar
jules21
 
Posts: 8552
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:14 pm
Location: deep in the pain cave

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby queequeg » Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:16 pm

trailgumby wrote:
I really don't understand the point, though, of the second lot of extended horn usage after I'd rolled off Spit Rd onto Parriwi Road. The car in front of me was only a couple of car lengths distant. Was I blocking your view of his rego plate? Hope you enjoyed the cheery wave you got in response. :D



Fancy advertising has sold her a dream where large SUVs glide effortlessly through empty city streets at top speed, unimpeded by the reality of living in a city where everyone drives and is trying to live the same dream.

She probably just pressed the "Info" button on the in-car computer and discovered her average speed is actually much closer to 30km/h, which means she would be better off with a bicycle instead of an $80,000 car.

(FYI I happened to press the info button in my car when filling up on the weekend, and it showed 32km/h avg since the car was last serviced. We don't use the car in peak hours. In comparison, my bicycle avg speed over all of 2012 was just over 25km/h. It is not a big difference.)
User avatar
queequeg
 
Posts: 2755
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:09 am

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby il padrone » Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:25 pm

queequeg wrote:She probably just pressed the "Info" button on the in-car computer and discovered her average speed is actually much closer to 30km/h, which means she would be better off with a bicycle instead of an $80,000 car.

If she had a trip average function it's very likely it would be showing closer to 20km :P

I think the overall peak period average speed of motor vehicles across all of Melbourne is about 23kmh and falling every year :lol: :lol: :lol:
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 18178
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby jules21 » Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:27 pm

il padrone wrote:I think the overall peak period average speed of motor vehicles across all of Melbourne is about 23kmh and falling every year :lol: :lol: :lol:

that would include less congested, outer suburbs. it must be lower as you get closer in.
User avatar
jules21
 
Posts: 8552
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:14 pm
Location: deep in the pain cave

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby queequeg » Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:28 pm

il padrone wrote:
queequeg wrote:She probably just pressed the "Info" button on the in-car computer and discovered her average speed is actually much closer to 30km/h, which means she would be better off with a bicycle instead of an $80,000 car.

If she had a trip average function it's very likely it would be showing closer to 20km :P

I think the overall peak period average speed of motor vehicles across all of Melbourne is about 23kmh and falling every year :lol: :lol: :lol:


You are probably right. In our car we only drive outside of peak or on weekends, and we're only just over 30km/h.
My daily avg speed for my commute ranges anywhere from 22km/h to 34km/h depending on which bike I use, how I am feeling and what the weather is like. Most days it sits in the 24 to 27km/h range for a comfortable cruisy commute.
User avatar
queequeg
 
Posts: 2755
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:09 am

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby il padrone » Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:31 pm

jules21 wrote:
il padrone wrote:I think the overall peak period average speed of motor vehicles across all of Melbourne is about 23kmh and falling every year :lol: :lol: :lol:

that would include less congested, outer suburbs. it must be lower as you get closer in.

And even less if you factored in the "door to door" aspects. Getting from that distant car park to your office.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 18178
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby human909 » Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:38 pm

jules21 wrote:
il padrone wrote:I think the overall peak period average speed of motor vehicles across all of Melbourne is about 23kmh and falling every year :lol: :lol: :lol:

that would include less congested, outer suburbs. it must be lower as you get closer in.


It is a little bit surprising but in many cases outer suburbs can be just as congested as inner suburbs. Outer suburbs are often designed with a cul-de-sac arrangement which focuses most of the traffic on a handful of nearby roads. At peak some of these are absolutely atrocious. In contrast some inner suburbs are completely bypassed by peak hour traffic and local trips are relatively unaffected by peak hour.

But overall I would agree that average speeds in outer suburbs are higher. The lower speeds of inner suburbs largely aren't too big a problem if you only need to travel 3km to work!
human909
 
Posts: 4728
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:48 am

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby jules21 » Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:43 pm

human909 wrote:It is a little bit surprising but in many cases outer suburbs can be just as congested as inner suburbs.

that is often true. the other factor is that they are often highly car-dependent and overrun with motor vehicle traffic. i think what is happening is that for the purposes of traffic congestion, the term "inner suburb" is rapidly expanding to swallow up what were previously outer suburbs.
User avatar
jules21
 
Posts: 8552
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:14 pm
Location: deep in the pain cave

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby il padrone » Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:52 pm

Add to that a outer fringe that is allowed to expand onto sub-standard previously rural lanes that become atrociously congested (and very dangerous), and the developers are never stung to pay for main road upgrades. :evil:
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 18178
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby human909 » Tue Mar 19, 2013 2:16 pm

jules21 wrote:
human909 wrote:It is a little bit surprising but in many cases outer suburbs can be just as congested as inner suburbs.

that is often true. the other factor is that they are often highly car-dependent and overrun with motor vehicle traffic. i think what is happening is that for the purposes of traffic congestion, the term "inner suburb" is rapidly expanding to swallow up what were previously outer suburbs.

I have laughed in the past when places such as Box Hill have been described as "inner suburbs". In days past Box Hill and Doncaster were weekend holiday destinations for people living in Melbourne! Sure things change, so I would accept middle suburb. But describing it as inner is absurd!

il padrone wrote:Add to that a outer fringe that is allowed to expand onto sub-standard previously rural lanes that become atrociously congested (and very dangerous), and the developers are never stung to pay for main road upgrades. :evil:

Donnybrook Rd is my favourite one here. It passes through the small hamlet of Donnybrook which has a trainline, a pub and a general store. It has plenty of nearby farms and a local quarry. However it has bumper to bumper peakhour traffic as thousands of people from the northern sprawl of Melbourne desperately try to get to the Hume. :roll:
human909
 
Posts: 4728
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:48 am

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby AndrewBurns » Tue Mar 19, 2013 2:42 pm

My average bicycle commute speed is between 27 and 28 kph over 24 km. Compared to my average commute speed by car which is around 20 kph over 15 km. Once my average speed over that 15 km commute was 12 kph, Sydney.
AndrewBurns
 
Posts: 994
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:36 pm

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby wellington_street » Tue Mar 19, 2013 2:58 pm

queequeg wrote:(FYI I happened to press the info button in my car when filling up on the weekend, and it showed 32km/h avg since the car was last serviced. We don't use the car in peak hours. In comparison, my bicycle avg speed over all of 2012 was just over 25km/h. It is not a big difference.)


As an aside, can someone clarify for me how the average speed is calculated in these cars? Does it only include when you are moving? Or does it include stationary but engine on? Stationary, engine on but in gear?
wellington_street
 
Posts: 942
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:25 pm

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby trailgumby » Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:26 pm

jules21 wrote:
trailgumby wrote:To the silly woman in the Beemer SUV this morning who stood on the horn behind me (unfortunately camera card was full, so no footage):

get a or use your AZ and do the same to her when you're stuck behind her :mrgreen:

The thought has occurred to me... I have an Air Zound... but I'd rather not put myself in the frame to provoke a brake test, a close pass, or a sudden engagement of reverse gear.

You'd like to think a driver wouldn't overreact that much, but from bitter personal experience I've found that what I'd like to think sometimes differs from the reality. :(
User avatar
trailgumby
 
Posts: 10201
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 4:30 pm
Location: Northern Beaches, Sydney

PreviousNext

Return to General discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Exabot [Bot], schurms



Popular Bike Shops
Torpedo 7 Torpedo7 AU
Ground Effect Ground Effect NZ
Chain Reaction Cycles CRC UK
Wiggle Wiggle UK
Ebay Ebay AU



InTouch with BNA
“Bicycles BNA Twitter
“Bicycles BNA Facebook
“Google+ BNA Google+
“Bicycles BNA Newsletter