Moron Motorists #3

Philistine
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Philistine » Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:45 am

outnabike wrote:I mean a two ton vehicle must not come close to a cyclist so it doesn't hit the cyclist. It is a totally different scenario for a cyclist to come close to a vehicle.

.....an advisory passing distance applies to bicycle riders passing pedestrians. This is a safety advisory recommendation only, not a road rule change.


Sometimes on these threads the debate is about points of law - this one is about doing the right thing and being seen to do the right thing.

If you position yourself within a metre of a stationary vehicle (say at traffic lights) I cannot see much wrong with that provided you are careful. But you cannot ride within a metre of a slow moving vehicle to gain a small traffic advantage and then expect the driver of that vehicle to be enthusiastic about giving you the metre clearance you demand, if you cross paths further up the road.

If I encounter a pedestrian on a bike path (I cannot recall meeting any on the road), I ring my bell and/or call out. If they show signs of having heard me, I pass them as far away as I can get, sometimes actually veering off the path. If they show no sign of having heard me (some walk around with ear buds in) I slow right down before I pass. If I encounter children (walking or of bikes), I slow right down whether they appear to have heard me or not. I call this "doing the right thing". You shouldn't need a law to tell you to do what's right.

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duncan16v
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby duncan16v » Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:20 am

Philistine wrote:
outnabike wrote:I mean a two ton vehicle must not come close to a cyclist so it doesn't hit the cyclist. It is a totally different scenario for a cyclist to come close to a vehicle.

.....an advisory passing distance applies to bicycle riders passing pedestrians. This is a safety advisory recommendation only, not a road rule change.


Sometimes on these threads the debate is about points of law - this one is about doing the right thing and being seen to do the right thing.

If you position yourself within a metre of a stationary vehicle (say at traffic lights) I cannot see much wrong with that provided you are careful. But you cannot ride within a metre of a slow moving vehicle to gain a small traffic advantage and then expect the driver of that vehicle to be enthusiastic about giving you the metre clearance you demand, if you cross paths further up the road.

If I encounter a pedestrian on a bike path (I cannot recall meeting any on the road), I ring my bell and/or call out. If they show signs of having heard me, I pass them as far away as I can get, sometimes actually veering off the path. If they show no sign of having heard me (some walk around with ear buds in) I slow right down before I pass. If I encounter children (walking or of bikes), I slow right down whether they appear to have heard me or not. I call this "doing the right thing". You shouldn't need a law to tell you to do what's right.


+ 1,000,000,000,000

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby uart » Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:00 pm

pj wrote:It's possible he thought I was going pass him on the inside and hence his tantrum. It may have looked like this from his perspective as I moved to the left but this was only to avoid the speed bump, I would never try and buzz past on the inside.

No worries mate. I hope I didn't sound too judgmental there, as I've done similar things countless times myself. On one road in particular with lots of speed humps, I'm always ending up right up the backside of cars, even when they've passed me safely like 20 seconds or more ago. :)

Anyway, I was just trying to look at it from the driver's perspective, try to figure out what made him angry. Because there is nothing else that I can see, you didn't slow him down for even one second.

That road is a bit weird there, and just after that speed hump it narrows in from the right, so he had to move left there. I think he was just watching in his mirrors to be sure that he had cleared you safely before moving over. When you "disappeared" into his rear left corner he wasn't sure that he could safely move over. I'm almost 100% sure that this is the point when he got mad.

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Ancientflatulence
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Ancientflatulence » Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:21 pm

You are wrongly named, Philistine ......... reasoned thought AND consideration for others .......... where will it end .... what about your "rights" ...... :D :D

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby mikesbytes » Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:05 pm

pj's assessment is most likely correct has he would of felt the nonverbal part of the communication such as the flexion in the voice and that would of being lost to some extent in the video. If the driver was concerned about pj's safety then a statement like, for "the bike path is safer" then it would of come across as a safety concern
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby pj » Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:33 am

uart wrote:No worries mate. I hope I didn't sound too judgmental there, as I've done similar things countless times myself. On one road in particular with lots of speed humps, I'm always ending up right up the backside of cars, even when they've passed me safely like 20 seconds or more ago.


Not at all, it's good to try and understand things from a drivers perspective.

mikesbytes wrote:pj's assessment is most likely correct has he would of felt the nonverbal part of the communication such as the flexion in the voice and that would of being lost to some extent in the video. If the driver was concerned about pj's safety then a statement like, for "the bike path is safer" then it would of come across as a safety concern


Agree, I need cameras with better microphone capabilities, the action camera inside a waterproof case just doesn't cut it :D

In other news, beeping bus driver has been identified, cctv footage reviewed and will be "counselled" by his manager. Can't help feeling a little bit bad ......... :|

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby march83 » Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:45 pm

I have a technical question: Is a fly 6 going to do much of a job for helping to document traffic incidents? Will it be any use for viewing number plates and as a tool to potentially measure close passes?

If not, what's a recommended set up? I have a Shimano CM1000 front facing camera already but it's not particularly convenient. What video editing software is recommended?
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby cogs19 » Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:32 pm

march83 wrote:Will it be any use for viewing number plates ...?


No problem reading number plates during daylight hours. I'd say it is less reliable in low-light, and at night it will only really be effective on well lit streets.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby pj » Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:36 pm

cogs19 wrote:
march83 wrote:Will it be any use for viewing number plates ...?


No problem reading number plates during daylight hours. I'd say it is less reliable in low-light, and at night it will only really be effective on well lit streets.


Even the cheap ones are fine to read number plates during the day. I use the x1 kaiser baas cameras, got them for $49 each at JB. Sound is crap though.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby duncanm » Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:31 pm

mikesbytes wrote:pj's assessment is most likely correct has he would of felt the nonverbal part of the communication such as the flexion in the voice and that would of being lost to some extent in the video. If the driver was concerned about pj's safety then a statement like, for "the bike path is safer" then it would of come across as a safety concern


or even a 'hey mate, please don't ride so close to me - I didn't know where you were going'.

.. but that didn't happen.. driver was aggressive.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby InTheWoods » Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:27 pm

This is a fast downhill section of Boundary St, and I legally ride in the middle of the left lane to be more visible and avoid close shaves in the narrow lane. The right hand lane must turn right at the upcoming intersection, and even though this bus driver also needs to go straight at the intersection, he tries to overtake in the right turn only lane with nowhere enough distance to manage a safe overtake - he does not manage to come close to overtaking on the downhill, and then changes into the lane that I'm still in as if I'm not there.


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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby outnabike » Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:53 pm

Philistine wrote:Sometimes on these threads the debate is about points of law - this one is about doing the right thing and being seen to do the right thing.
If you position yourself within a metre of a stationary vehicle (say at traffic lights) I cannot see much wrong with that provided you are careful. But you cannot ride within a metre of a slow moving vehicle to gain a small traffic advantage and then expect the driver of that vehicle to be enthusiastic about giving you the metre clearance you demand, if you cross paths further up the road.



Well then, I guess if we have others to judge what is right for cyclists, and cyclists judging cyclist for obeying laws, we have real problems. I then have to like the many motorists that have close passed me and screamed for me to get off the road.

You see being seen to do the right thing has noting to do with being targeted for punishment.

Some writers have said that going up a hill they pedal as quickly as possible to show they are doing their best. I have never been spared abuse doing that.

If I can not ride safely beside slow moving traffic to get a small advantage, Is it ok to ride beside slow moving traffic to get a large advantage?
I mean if fifty cars are moving in line, the reason I have a bike is to get past them. If there are six inline and the lights turn red with me in front at the lights, do you think the next ten cars that line up behind me, love me?

I don't have the luxury of opting for high moral ground in traffic. I don't flaunt the law but do obey it. My experience of almost getting skittled when doing the right thing, tells me a motorist doesn't give a fig about whether or not a cyclist does the right thing.

I am not concerned if they love or hate me. If we all just obeyed the law we wouldn't have any concerns.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby duncanm » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:05 pm

InTheWoods wrote:This is a fast downhill section of Boundary St, and I legally ride in the middle of the left lane to be more visible and avoid close shaves in the narrow lane. The right hand lane must turn right at the upcoming intersection, and even though this bus driver also needs to go straight at the intersection, he tries to overtake in the right turn only lane with nowhere enough distance to manage a safe overtake - he does not manage to come close to overtaking on the downhill, and then changes into the lane that I'm still in as if I'm not there.



hol.. ley.. cheezels! W T F was he thinking?

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby find_bruce » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:08 pm

InTheWoods wrote:This is a fast downhill section of Boundary St, and I legally ride in the middle of the left lane to be more visible and avoid close shaves in the narrow lane. The right hand lane must turn right at the upcoming intersection, and even though this bus driver also needs to go straight at the intersection, he tries to overtake in the right turn only lane with nowhere enough distance to manage a safe overtake - he does not manage to come close to overtaking on the downhill, and then changes into the lane that I'm still in as if I'm not there.
Sweet baby cheesus, glad you survived that one unscathed. Complaint to the police or the bus co?

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby mikesbytes » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:26 pm

InTheWoods wrote:This is a fast downhill section of Boundary St, and I legally ride in the middle of the left lane to be more visible and avoid close shaves in the narrow lane. The right hand lane must turn right at the upcoming intersection, and even though this bus driver also needs to go straight at the intersection, he tries to overtake in the right turn only lane with nowhere enough distance to manage a safe overtake - he does not manage to come close to overtaking on the downhill, and then changes into the lane that I'm still in as if I'm not there.


What do you think the drivers objective was?
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby cyclingnolycra » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:32 pm

Glad you're okay, what a moron! That was incredibly dangerous and stupid of him, how much faster would he be if you weren't there? Wouldn't he wait at the traffic light anyway? I don't understand some drivers.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby pj » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:28 am

:!:
InTheWoods wrote:This is a fast downhill section of Boundary St, and I legally ride in the middle of the left lane to be more visible and avoid close shaves in the narrow lane. The right hand lane must turn right at the upcoming intersection, and even though this bus driver also needs to go straight at the intersection, he tries to overtake in the right turn only lane with nowhere enough distance to manage a safe overtake - he does not manage to come close to overtaking on the downhill, and then changes into the lane that I'm still in as if I'm not there.



That's one hell of a MGIF! Hope you are going to put in a complaint.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Philistine » Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:17 am

outnabike wrote:I am not concerned if they love or hate me.

Some motorists have a violent and irrational hatred towards cyclists and, in a perfect world, they would be in a secure facility. However, in this world they are on the roads, in control of machines that are capable of doing enormous damage to cyclists. Fortunately, they are actually quite rare (in my experience), and the overwhelming majority are friendly or at least neutral towards cyclists.

I probably have an advantage over you insofar as I ride only for recreation, and I get to choose quiet times of the day to ride. I demand that motorists treat me with respect by giving me the mandated clearance, but I try to give them the same respect - no erratic riding, no sudden moves,etc. - and I avoid holding them up more than I have to, or for longer than I have to. I don't mind if they don't love me but I certainly don't want to give them reason to hate me.
If we all just obeyed the law we wouldn't have any concerns.

The law has so many grey areas we would always have concerns. One of my pet hates is drivers pulling up alongside me at pinch points, where there is only one lane and I have claimed it. The reverse does not happen to me because I do not ride in inner city congested traffic but it seems like it happens to you. Are you confident you are within the law?

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Philistine » Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:57 am

I don't know why my last post came up twice - it wasn't that good!

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby find_bruce » Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:45 am

Philistine wrote:I don't know why my last post came up twice - it wasn't that good!
Duplicate posts happen occasionally - we just delete them when spotted

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby outnabike » Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:10 am

Hi Philistine
I will tell you how confident I am that I am riding within the law. I have now had three prosecutions against motorists according to the police. This despite the first person always to be criticised by the police to be yours truly.

I have been told to ride on the paths, that kids can ride on paths till 14 years of age, ride in turn slip lanes and then cut back in to give motorists room (across solid white lines, this on a double road), to drive more on the left on two lane roads, that if I am afraid of a bit of traffic I should drive my car, I am a disgrace because a woman that close passed me could not remember the incident, and that her daughter cried thinking her mum was going to jail, that there was nothing they could do as no one had broken a law ,(despite the video proof), that I should work to get a close pass law into place in Vic.

Some of the above I have on record at my front door.

Yet it is the police that oppose the close pass law in Vic.

I am now going to take a leaf out off a member here that died last week and seek (Cameron) in Brisbane, and am learning the process of getting info on at least four of my unsuccessful claims from the freedom of information process.

The police are clearly siding with motorists that close shave cyclists and their attitude is endemic to the highest level in the Springvale motor patrol branch in Vic.

I don't have illusions of wanting to get along with motorists. It is the moto-centric that create laws to prevent cycling. The make us wear helmets and then joyfully hold blitzes to prosecute us whilst every second motorist in a blitz is driving drunk, drugged up, unregistered, unlicensed ,un-roadworthy. All the while they sanctimoniously pushing us off the road if possible.

And the cyclists rave about the different cars that they drive as if it makes a difference if you get killed by a mini-minor or an f300 ute.

Me I own a Toyota Land cruiser and a Ford Ute. So even here, that is frowned on. What a radical I must be.... :)
Any way, it is another way to balance the high moral ground we can get caught up in.
Sorry to take up space, and I find nothing wrong in you trying to be a good road citizen at all. Just saying that I have tried it all, staying left, staying centre, performing turns from every road part possible, bright colours, eye contact, exemplary hand signals, acknowledging good drivers with a wave, lights on day and night with a wheel hub dyno, two tail lights. Yada yada…. no result. :)
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby jasonc » Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:48 am

find_bruce wrote:
InTheWoods wrote:This is a fast downhill section of Boundary St, and I legally ride in the middle of the left lane to be more visible and avoid close shaves in the narrow lane. The right hand lane must turn right at the upcoming intersection, and even though this bus driver also needs to go straight at the intersection, he tries to overtake in the right turn only lane with nowhere enough distance to manage a safe overtake - he does not manage to come close to overtaking on the downhill, and then changes into the lane that I'm still in as if I'm not there.
Sweet baby cheesus, glad you survived that one unscathed. Complaint to the police or the bus co?


BCC transport and Translink are useless. IntheWoods will go straight to police
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby find_bruce » Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:02 am

jasonc wrote:BCC transport and Translink are useless. IntheWoods will go straight to police
Here's hoping the particular Police are less useless

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby AdelaidePeter » Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:53 am

outnabike wrote:
Ancientflatulence wrote:Consider drivers ...... don't ride within one metre of their vehicles ..... that is a close pass ........... :D ....... where that leaves those who love filtering, I don't know ....... :D :D


Sorry AF,
I reckon you have misinterpreted the close passing law. And you seem to know why.
I mean a two ton vehicle must not come close to a cyclist so it doesn't hit the cyclist. It is a totally different scenario for a cyclist to come close to a vehicle.
Consider that when a vehicle comes at you it is taking your space and may cause you to take evasive action. Where as a cyclist is in evasive mode whilst riding near a vehicle.


pj wasn't taking evasive action. He was deliberately riding close (too close, in my opinion). In fact, I can't think of a situation where it is advisable to move within less than a metre of a moving vehicle as a means of taking evasive action (or for any other reason, for that matter).

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Philistine » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:08 pm

outnabike wrote:Hi Philistine
I will tell you how confident I am that I am riding within the law. I have now had three prosecutions against motorists according to the police. This despite the first person always to be criticised by the police to be yours truly.


Thank you for your detailed response. I hope my earlier posts did not give you the impression that I was being antagonistic towards you. If I disagree with you at all it is only in the detail, and I am sure that applies to everyone else who has posted. This subject deserves to be picked apart from every angle as it could be a matter of life and death to someone on the thread - in fact it already has been!

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