Moron Motorists #3

open topic, for anything cycling related.

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby jules21 » Sat Jun 08, 2013 8:58 pm

i agree it's not straightforward. but it is made conditional on moving "safely". i would suggest a court would likely accept moving into a no-standing zone met that condition, while punching a red light is less likely to. my personal view is that the rules are too prescriptive and should impose a duty on drivers to make a judgment and be able to use that judgment as a defence against any charge. as it stands, it appears they can't do that effectively - i.e. arguing that it was safe to run a red light doesn't work.
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by BNA » Sat Jun 08, 2013 9:03 pm

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby TigerFilly » Sat Jun 08, 2013 9:03 pm

jules21 wrote:the bit about "despite any other rule" refers to other rules which otherwise mean that drivers need not yield to another vehicle, e.g. when heading straight though an intersection and the emergency vehicle is turning right. normally the vehicle turning right must yield, but if it's an emergency vehicle, you may not expect that (although you shouldn't anyway - there's no such thing as right-of-way).
it does not mean that all the other rules are suspended to allow a driver to move out of the way of an emergency vehicle. if you break a rule in that process, you may be fined.

My husband got slammed into by an ambulance a few days ago. He was heading North on a two lane road, the ambulance was heading South. The ambulance turned right into a side street as my husband was driving past the side street, and the ambulance smashed into his driver door, pushed him up onto the footpath and into a street sign. Our insurance company would not proceed with our claim until we paid our excess as they said that since the other vehicle was an ambulance we are automatically deemed at fault. He is fine BTW, pity our perfectly good car was very old and therefore not insured for very much.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby KonaCommuter » Sat Jun 08, 2013 9:05 pm

trailgumby wrote:
jules21 wrote:it does not mean that all the other rules are suspended to allow a driver to move out of the way of an emergency vehicle. if you break a rule in that process, you may be fined.
Given that assertion is directly opposed to the plain-language reading of the provision quoted by the earlier poster, there would need ot be case law or another provision to support the modification of how it reads. Taken in isolation, I read it as indeed being a blanket exemption modified only by common law requirement not to be negligent.

Not saying you're incorrect, just interested to know what you base it on in law. :)



Many a moon has passed since this was a part of my life but here you go

http://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGIS ... ervA91.pdf
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby duncanm » Sun Jun 09, 2013 3:29 pm

KonaCommuter wrote:
trailgumby wrote:
jules21 wrote:it does not mean that all the other rules are suspended to allow a driver to move out of the way of an emergency vehicle. if you break a rule in that process, you may be fined.
Given that assertion is directly opposed to the plain-language reading of the provision quoted by the earlier poster, there would need ot be case law or another provision to support the modification of how it reads. Taken in isolation, I read it as indeed being a blanket exemption modified only by common law requirement not to be negligent.

Not saying you're incorrect, just interested to know what you base it on in law. :)



Many a moon has passed since this was a part of my life but here you go

http://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGIS ... ervA91.pdf


Kona,

is there any particular part of that legislation you'd like to point us to?

I least I tried to quote the relevant part, rather than just pointing you to the NSW road regs
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby high_tea » Sun Jun 09, 2013 4:27 pm

duncanm wrote:
KonaCommuter wrote:

Many a moon has passed since this was a part of my life but here you go

http://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGIS ... ervA91.pdf


Kona,

is there any particular part of that legislation you'd like to point us to?

I least I tried to quote the relevant part, rather than just pointing you to the NSW road regs


I once had some character decline to tell me which section they were relying on because "it's a big act". To this day I'm unsure if the irony was intentional.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby g-boaf » Sun Jun 09, 2013 4:36 pm

KonaCommuter wrote:FYI - you will get a ticket and it'll be upheld in court if you drive through a red light to make way for an emergency vehicle. I can't recall which state that occurred in and to my knowledge the law has not been altered


I've witnessed the occupants of a Police car tell another driver to proceed through the red-light so the Police car could get through quickly. If you were in that situation, would you obey the red lights stubbornly, or obey the Police?

arkle wrote:
Marto wrote:@chriscole: seems like their intentions were right, but the execution was clumsy. A motorist has done similar to me twice same spot, same motorist), without the suddenness of stopping, on a long climb on my commute. You really want to keep momentum there, and starting off again is a pain, but they are trying to be nice, so I've given a friendly "go ahead and turn" wave, while cursing a bit internally. That area is close to where motorists like to hoon up the hill, close passing or cutting cyclists off, so I would prefer the good intentions to the angry territorial behaviour.


Just for clarification - I know that we are obliged to give way to a car ahead of us indicating and turning left, but what is the situation where a car overtakes us with its left indicator on, or immediately puts its left indicator on after overtaking us, and slows to make the turn. Do we still have to give way?

arkle



Well Arkle, I believe that in such a case - if you'd turned into the previous street, then the incident wouldn't have occurred. And the car driver probably believed he/she was driving reasonably safely. So I suspect a jury would find the cyclist at fault. :wink:
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby KonaCommuter » Sun Jun 09, 2013 4:50 pm

duncanm wrote:Kona,

is there any particular part of that legislation you'd like to point us to?

I least I tried to quote the relevant part, rather than just pointing you to the NSW road regs



Please accept my apologies. I do hope I don't come across as a total loser but here I go anyway :oops:

I'm not going to enter into a debate about the topic. I have enough on my plate dealing arguing with Moron Motorists. Personally I will wear a red light offence every day of the week to get out of the way of an Emergency Services vehicles. Hell, I'd even consider taking it to court to get the Police to argue that people shouldn't get out of the way. That'd be a laugh.


But yeah, if I'm going to discuss road safety I'm wanting to make the roads safer for cyclists because, well, I'm a cyclist :wink:
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby KonaCommuter » Sun Jun 09, 2013 4:53 pm

g-boaf wrote:
KonaCommuter wrote:FYI - you will get a ticket and it'll be upheld in court if you drive through a red light to make way for an emergency vehicle. I can't recall which state that occurred in and to my knowledge the law has not been altered


I've witnessed the occupants of a Police car tell another driver to proceed through the red-light so the Police car could get through quickly. If you were in that situation, would you obey the red lights stubbornly, or obey the Police?



I don't know why I'm getting attacked for pointing out that someone else got a ticket for going through a red light to get out of the way of an Ambulance :x


In your example a Police Officer gave a lawful direction. Police =/= Ambulance
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Aushiker » Tue Jun 11, 2013 9:44 am



Background can be found at my blog posting. Normally I don't bother with close passes but this one rattled me. I really didn't expect to go much further with but when I reviewed the video I realised I had company name, Centurion and then a visit to their website sealed the deal so to speak. Letter and DVD went off to Mark Doig, Executive General Manager of Centurion yesterday. Will be interesting to see what comes of it, if anything.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby arkle » Tue Jun 11, 2013 9:57 am

The drivers just don't realise how dangerous it is to pass so closely. Anything could happen. You could hit a pothole, swerve to avoid some glass, get a cramp, the chain could snap or come off, the wind could blow - and then you'd be seriously injured or dead. They should produce a couple of gruesome bicycle safety adverts where cyclists appear to actually get run over by cars and trucks, with the accompanying screaming, and the horror and shock of the culpable drivers.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby hannos » Tue Jun 11, 2013 10:23 am

duncanm wrote:oh.... note also the condition that you move out of the way "... as soon as the driver can do so safely".

So I ready that as if you punt through a red light to avoid an ambulance without due care, then you can be done.


I believe you're allowed to move into an intersection against a red light (when safe) to get out of the way. To proceed through the intersection would be an entirely different matter.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby jules21 » Tue Jun 11, 2013 10:33 am

Aushiker wrote:Background can be found at my blog posting. Normally I don't bother with close passes but this one rattled me. I really didn't expect to go much further with but when I reviewed the video I realised I had company name, Centurion and then a visit to their website sealed the deal so to speak. Letter and DVD went off to Mark Doig, Executive General Manager of Centurion yesterday. Will be interesting to see what comes of it, if anything.

that's pretty poor. update us on how you go. anything can happen there - a retread can come loose, the rear trailer can skip sideways. he's shown zero concern for you, or your safety.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby biker jk » Tue Jun 11, 2013 10:37 am

Aushiker wrote:

Background can be found at my blog posting. Normally I don't bother with close passes but this one rattled me. I really didn't expect to go much further with but when I reviewed the video I realised I had company name, Centurion and then a visit to their website sealed the deal so to speak. Letter and DVD went off to Mark Doig, Executive General Manager of Centurion yesterday. Will be interesting to see what comes of it, if anything.

Andrew


Yes it was too close. In Sydney, I'm regularly passed by trucks that close or closer. They don't care. Hell, you can kill a cyclist and get away with it.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Aushiker » Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:15 pm

From a NSW ambulance driver ....



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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Aushiker » Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:52 pm

It is a bit hard to tell from this video but this BW James Transport driver seemingly without any concern (i.e., no evidence of braking) sailed through this red light on Cockburn Road this morning.



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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Saturnstarzz » Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:15 pm

close call for me video doesn't do it justice really but had to slow down a fair bit. Wasnt a smidsy as I had my lights on, was a not going to give way to you as I'm a truck and your a bike.

Sorry about the language later on and the funny camera angle



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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Aushiker » Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:29 pm

Saturnstarzz wrote:close call for me video doesn't do it justice really but had to slow down a fair bit. Wasnt a smidsy as I had my lights on, was a not going to give way to you as I'm a truck and your a bike.


I get that a fair bit. I tend to accept it as long as there is good clearance.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby jules21 » Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:33 pm

pretty poor driving but i'd say he saw you and left room. the problem is you can't know that so have to assume you may be run off the road. so it's not OK.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Summernight » Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:43 pm

My similar one, but at least it was at slow speed and not a truck (I was indicating to turn right at the intersection he was coming out of):

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Aushiker » Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:49 pm

Summernight wrote:My similar one, but at least it was at slow speed and not a truck (I was indicating to turn right at the intersection he was coming out of)

No excuse and bad driving for sure but I do wonder if they "misinterpreted"the right hand turn signal and saw it as an opportunity to get across in front of you.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Summernight » Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:59 pm

Aushiker wrote:
Summernight wrote:My similar one, but at least it was at slow speed and not a truck (I was indicating to turn right at the intersection he was coming out of)

No excuse and bad driving for sure but I do wonder if they "misinterpreted"the right hand turn signal and saw it as an opportunity to get across in front of you.

Andrew


Probably. They didn't misinterpret the car in front of me's right hand turn signal though... But where was I to turn if not at the designated turning spot? Up his lane on the wrong side of the road?
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby jasonc » Tue Jun 11, 2013 6:15 pm

Saturnstarzz wrote:close call for me video doesn't do it justice really but had to slow down a fair bit. Wasnt a smidsy as I had my lights on, was a not going to give way to you as I'm a truck and your a bike.


that around braybrook/the back of sunshine?
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby London Boy » Tue Jun 11, 2013 6:49 pm

g-boaf wrote:
KonaCommuter wrote:FYI - you will get a ticket and it'll be upheld in court if you drive through a red light to make way for an emergency vehicle. I can't recall which state that occurred in and to my knowledge the law has not been altered


I've witnessed the occupants of a Police car tell another driver to proceed through the red-light so the Police car could get through quickly. If you were in that situation, would you obey the red lights stubbornly, or obey the Police?

The Police. They are giving a lawful direction, which you are obliged to follow.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby kenwstr » Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:21 pm

London Boy wrote:
g-boaf wrote:
KonaCommuter wrote:FYI - you will get a ticket and it'll be upheld in court if you drive through a red light to make way for an emergency vehicle. I can't recall which state that occurred in and to my knowledge the law has not been altered


I've witnessed the occupants of a Police car tell another driver to proceed through the red-light so the Police car could get through quickly. If you were in that situation, would you obey the red lights stubbornly, or obey the Police?

The Police. They are giving a lawful direction, which you are obliged to follow.


Please define "Lawful Direction".
I have a feeling it can't just be any direction given by police otherwise in theory, they could direct you to kill someone and that would be lawful. I don't know but I'm pretty sure that can't be right.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Aushiker » Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:34 pm

kenwstr wrote:Please define "Lawful Direction".


This should give you some idea ... NSW Act

185 Police may give reasonable directions for traffic regulation

A police officer may give reasonable directions for the safe and efficient regulation of traffic to any person driving a motor vehicle or riding a motorcycle on or near a road or road related area.


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