Moron Motorists #3

open topic, for anything cycling related.

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby trailgumby » Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:03 am

darkelf921 wrote:Well, I had a doozy today. Words cannot adequately describe how scared I was when this happened. A bus drove so close to me I had to struggle with the bike so I didn't get sucked in toward the bus.

Here's the video.

http://youtu.be/SSy_OZiOwC4

Flying bicycles! That was as close as I never want to get! He's missed you by inches, especially the rear of the bus as he moved in on you. If you hadn't flinched slightly left to avoid him we'd be reading about you in the paper. :(

Speaking of which, if you don't minx I might send a link to your vid to the Brisbane Times.
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by BNA » Sat Jun 29, 2013 11:19 am

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby leighthebee » Sat Jun 29, 2013 11:19 am

I've pm'ed darkelf in relation to this. I know it's on YouTube but can we keep this in house until further notice please.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Biffidus » Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:03 am

darkelf921 wrote:... You have to ride around a "median strip" to continue forward...

FTFY
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby TraceyG » Mon Jul 01, 2013 7:46 am

We were verballyabused by a number of drivers this weekend, including one who objected because he had to stop at a red light to let us pass on the green! But the one that really took the cake was the police car that overtook us on double lines, towards the top of a hill!

Sure, he was stopped at some sort of incident where there was another police car plus an ambulance just a short distance up the road, but without lights and sirens, he was not operating as an emergency vehicle.

What hope do we have as cyclists if even the police won't obey the road rules?
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby warthog1 » Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:10 am

TraceyG wrote:We were verballyabused by a number of drivers this weekend, including one who objected because he had to stop at a red light to let us pass on the green! But the one that really took the cake was the police car that overtook us on double lines, towards the top of a hill!

Sure, he was stopped at some sort of incident where there was another police car plus an ambulance just a short distance up the road, but without lights and sirens, he was not operating as an emergency vehicle.

What hope do we have as cyclists if even the police won't obey the road rules?


We recently had a traffic cop tell our bunch that it was OK for cars to overtake us on double white lines as we were an obstruction whilst travelling two abrest, never mind we were doing ~45-50 at the time :roll:

His superiors have been contacted to correct this error :x
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby arkle » Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:43 am

warthog1 wrote:
TraceyG wrote:We were verballyabused by a number of drivers this weekend, including one who objected because he had to stop at a red light to let us pass on the green! But the one that really took the cake was the police car that overtook us on double lines, towards the top of a hill!

Sure, he was stopped at some sort of incident where there was another police car plus an ambulance just a short distance up the road, but without lights and sirens, he was not operating as an emergency vehicle.

What hope do we have as cyclists if even the police won't obey the road rules?


We recently had a traffic cop tell our bunch that it was OK for cars to overtake us on double white lines as we were an obstruction whilst travelling two abrest, never mind we were doing ~45-50 at the time :roll:

His superiors have been contacted to correct this error :x


I'm sure this won't be a popular idea amongst cyclists but I think there are good reasons for modifying the riding-two-abreast rule such that it's only permissible to do so where cars are allowed to cross the centre line, and where a solid line prevents this cyclists should ride in single file.

Here in the hills there are long sections (kms) of road with solid centre lines all the way - if riders insist on riding two abreast, cars sometimes cannot legally overtake for five minutes or more.

I normally ride alone and I'm usually on roads with a solid centre line, and I am very grateful to motorists who do put their outside wheels over the line when overtaking me. Often it is safe for a car to overtake a bicycle even though there is a solid centre line. It's illegal but it's not like I'm a wide fast-moving car where they need to be fully in the oncoming lane for a long period of time, which is really what the solid lines are trying to avoid. The alternative is that they pass me dangerously closely, and many of them do just that to avoid 1) crossing the centre line and 2) being held up by me for five minutes.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby warthog1 » Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:12 pm

That wasn't one of those sections of road, cars need only wait a short distance for the double lines to end.
I agree with your point though not legislating it. Most cycling bunches I have ridden with will modify riding practice over entended sections where overtaking is unsafe. Making that law is unnecessary and would serve to worsen drivers attitudes to bunch riding IMO. Make riders travel single file in some situations will create the expectation in impatient drivers that we do it everywhere.
Reminds me of a situation related to me by a cyclist who lived in England for a time. Car on the horn and aggressively overtaking riders and then further up the road calmly sitting behind horse riders travelling 2 abreast.
Last edited by warthog1 on Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby jasonc » Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:17 pm

warthog1 wrote:That wasn't one of those sections of road, cars need only wait a short distance for the double lines to end.
I agree with your point though not legislating it. Most cycling bunches I have ridden with will modify riding practice over entended sections where overtaking is unsafe. Making that law is unnecessary.


and as we know, making things law doesn't make them safe....
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Wakatuki » Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:24 pm

This is a fine news story example of how it can never the motorists fault. http://goo.gl/fokbW the weather is to blame, apparently.
Not driving in a manner suitable to condtions I say.

I know when I get to the top of the mountain and turn come back down if the rain has caught me unaware, I am riding to the conditions.
Perhaps it's because I have no airbags, or other numerous safety devices.
Sorry for the family's loss though, not something I wish upon anyone.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby jules21 » Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:36 pm

Wakatuki wrote:This is a fine news story example of how it can never the motorists fault. http://goo.gl/fokbW the weather is to blame, apparently.

to be fair, the author is a cyclist and has written some good articles in favour of cycling.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby zero » Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:02 pm

arkle wrote:
I'm sure this won't be a popular idea amongst cyclists but I think there are good reasons for modifying the riding-two-abreast rule such that it's only permissible to do so where cars are allowed to cross the centre line, and where a solid line prevents this cyclists should ride in single file.



The point to the centerline rule is that it is not safe to overtake. I can understand a motorist passing a cyclist climbing a straight hill over double centers not near the crest, but motorists that do overtake over double centerlines struggle to (a) see oncoming cyclists, (b) struggle to judge oncoming cyclists speeds if they do see them and (c) do it repeatedly in curves and crests where it is flat out not safe. Riding 2 abreast discourages all of that behavior.

If you have a 2 abreast group, the front riders of the group are much safer from drivers who fail to establish the length of the group when overtaking, and you also reduce the length of straight required to overtake safely by a factor of 2, and you discourage the total fool end of the spectrum that deliberately try to fit between the group and oncoming traffic.

The correct solution where there is significant bicycle traffic is to choose every 500ish m of roadway to offer a 2m wide relief area where the whole group can ride 2 abreast on the shoulder area. ie 100m of 2m wide, fully maintained shoulder marked as no parking for climbing cyclist groups to let cars through, combined with delaying signs indicating how far till the next one. That means not having to engineer the entire climbing side shoulder into a bicycle lane (because widening carriageways increase motorists speed) and because some parts of twisty roadways are too hard to do that to, and it also allows an opportunity to put better warning signage up to reduce the incidence of overtaking in flat out stupid locations.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby JohnJoyner » Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:33 pm

Shred931 wrote:That bus driver has a screw loose.

+1.
That's one of the worst I have seen. Complete disregard for human life. :evil:
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby trailgumby » Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:03 pm

arkle wrote:I'm sure this won't be a popular idea amongst cyclists but I think there are good reasons for modifying the riding-two-abreast rule such that it's only permissible to do so where cars are allowed to cross the centre line, and where a solid line prevents this cyclists should ride in single file.

Interesting idea. :wink:

My view is that if it is too narrow to pass a bunch riding two abreast when there is an unbroken line, it can often be too narrow to pass single file as well. Especially on country roads or quiet urban roads where this kind of riding is most likely, and when cyclists are travelling at speed. Making riders go single file increases the risk.

Most road bike bunches I've been behnd when driving, and the group mtb road rides I've been on when it's been too wet to ride off road, move single file to the left edge reasonably quickly on the slow uphill grinds. On the flat and downhill sections going single file just stretches out the bunch further, making it even harder and more risky for drivers to pass safely.

I think the status quo where the discretion rests with the party best placed to judge the risk is best.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Percrime » Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:56 pm

My view is that solid centrelines are in many places where overtaking anything is perfectly safe. And bicycles are particularily easy to overtake. Crossing the centreline to overtake bicycles where it is safe just should not be illegal.

If you have enough room to overtake without cutting in IF someone at the limit of visibility on the road was doing a bit over the speed limit the other way then overtaking is fine. And that distance is a hell of a lot less when following someone doing 30 than when following someone doing 90.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby arkle » Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:11 pm

Percrime wrote:My view is that solid centrelines are in many places where overtaking anything is perfectly safe. And bicycles are particularily easy to overtake. Crossing the centreline to overtake bicycles where it is safe just should not be illegal.

If you have enough room to overtake without cutting in IF someone at the limit of visibility on the road was doing a bit over the speed limit the other way then overtaking is fine. And that distance is a hell of a lot less when following someone doing 30 than when following someone doing 90.


I guess the solid lines are placed hyper-sensitively to avoid the worst case scenarios, like a van overtaking a van. A car overtaking a bicycle is at the opposite end of the spectrum. In this case it becomes more dangerous for the car not to put two wheels over the solid line for a fraction of second when there's no risk of a collision.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby rogan » Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:48 pm

arkle wrote:
Percrime wrote:My view is that solid centrelines are in many places where overtaking anything is perfectly safe. And bicycles are particularily easy to overtake. Crossing the centreline to overtake bicycles where it is safe just should not be illegal.

If you have enough room to overtake without cutting in IF someone at the limit of visibility on the road was doing a bit over the speed limit the other way then overtaking is fine. And that distance is a hell of a lot less when following someone doing 30 than when following someone doing 90.


I guess the solid lines are placed hyper-sensitively to avoid the worst case scenarios, like a van overtaking a van. A car overtaking a bicycle is at the opposite end of the spectrum. In this case it becomes more dangerous for the car not to put two wheels over the solid line for a fraction of second when there's no risk of a collision.

arkle


It's a matter of degree. If visibility is below 50 metres to the next corner or crest, no matter how slow I am going, there is a risk. If visibility is over 200 metres, it would generally be safe. I personally have no objection to motorised vehicles putting a wheel over the centre line to pass if it is safe and they can see it is safe.

There are often occasions where I wonder why motorists, with the power of 50 or 80 horses at their feet, against my (at best) maybe half a horsepower, cannot get past faster. If it's because they are being patient and cautious, that's fine. If it's because they are incompetent, and cannot judge speed or distance, and/or do not know how to accelerate swiftly and safely and are slowly getting furious and less risk averse, that is not fine. I reserve special scorn for those who use their horn in this situation.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Percrime » Mon Jul 01, 2013 7:23 pm

Yes exactly. It does need to be done with care AND some intelligence and judgement. We all know some motorists have neither. BUT the vast majority can slide past with 2 wheels over the centre line perfectly safely whenever its safe. And even the dumb fool determined to have a head on... its probably best from our point of view if they give us more space. Not so good for the bloke in the van going the other way.

Oh and single lines were placed everywhere deemed to not need double (do not cross lines) for about 70 years. And then someone decided to change the law a couple of years ago so they meant exactly the same thing. There are many many places where the single white line was only there to mark the centerline for many decades
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby arkle » Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:44 pm

Percrime wrote:Yes exactly. It does need to be done with care AND some intelligence and judgement. We all know some motorists have neither. BUT the vast majority can slide past with 2 wheels over the centre line perfectly safely whenever its safe. And even the dumb fool determined to have a head on... its probably best from our point of view if they give us more space. Not so good for the bloke in the van going the other way.

Oh and single lines were placed everywhere deemed to not need double (do not cross lines) for about 70 years. And then someone decided to change the law a couple of years ago so they meant exactly the same thing. There are many many places where the single white line was only there to mark the centerline for many decades


You and I are advocating motorists breaking the law by crossing a solid centre line, the primary traffic infringement illustrated in many of the MM video clips on here, so I suspect that we're about to be shot down.

I tell you what though - it's annoying when motorists sit two metres behind you for five minutes going up a winding road at 12km/h because they don't have the sense to know when it's ok to pass safely.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby ldrcycles » Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:14 pm

arkle wrote:I tell you what though - it's annoying when motorists sit two metres behind you for five minutes going up a winding road at 12km/h because they don't have the sense to know when it's ok to pass safely.


Isn't it just! I really do not want someone sitting behind me, not knowing what they're going to do. Anytime i'm in a situation where someone is waiting for me on a twisty uphill I wave them past with a smile at the first opportunity, win-win.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby DavidS » Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:28 am

Well I had a good one tonight.

My favourite intersection, the roundabout at the corner of New St, Bent Ave and Murphy St in Brighton next to Elsternwick Park. On the way home I was going North along New St. Car comes up on my left wanting to turn left into New St. I'm half way through the roundabout and the car just goes in front of me. Just ridiculous, I even had to swerve to miss the car. For once I decided to chase. I managed to catch the car and the driver just kept saying they didn't see me. On Saturday I bought a new light, 500 lumens and I ride with the light on full. How could they possibly not see me? I shined the light at them and they kept claiming they didn't see me, mind you the driver seemed quite unaffected by the light whereas most people can barely look at it for more than a split second so I really do wonder about the driver's eyesight. Either they have inadequate eyesight to drive or they just did not look. Ironically I rode on and the light indicated that the battery was running a bit low, so I set it 2 steps lower than the maximum setting. Then, at 2 settings lower than the maximum, I was riding on the footpath for the last couple of hundred metres to home. As I passed a pedestrian he averted his eyes and complained about the light.

Unbelievable, no matter how much light you put on the front of your bike morons will be morons.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby TraceyG » Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:38 am

warthog1 wrote:
TraceyG wrote:We were verballyabused by a number of drivers this weekend, including one who objected because he had to stop at a red light to let us pass on the green! But the one that really took the cake was the police car that overtook us on double lines, towards the top of a hill!

Sure, he was stopped at some sort of incident where there was another police car plus an ambulance just a short distance up the road, but without lights and sirens, he was not operating as an emergency vehicle.

What hope do we have as cyclists if even the police won't obey the road rules?


We recently had a traffic cop tell our bunch that it was OK for cars to overtake us on double white lines as we were an obstruction whilst travelling two abrest, never mind we were doing ~45-50 at the time :roll:

His superiors have been contacted to correct this error :x


Just to clarify, we had already dropped back to single file. And we (and therefore presumably the policeman) could not see if there was oncoming traffic.

Interestingly, a work colleague who is a volunteer fireman says that police don't have to have lights and sirens on to be operating as an emergency vehicle, but they are required to drive to safety rules regardless.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Shred931 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:43 am

DavidS wrote:Well I had a good one tonight.

My favourite intersection, the roundabout at the corner of New St, Bent Ave and Murphy St in Brighton next to Elsternwick Park. On the way home I was going North along New St. Car comes up on my left wanting to turn left into New St. I'm half way through the roundabout and the car just goes in front of me. Just ridiculous, I even had to swerve to miss the car. For once I decided to chase. I managed to catch the car and the driver just kept saying they didn't see me. On Saturday I bought a new light, 500 lumens and I ride with the light on full. How could they possibly not see me? I shined the light at them and they kept claiming they didn't see me, mind you the driver seemed quite unaffected by the light whereas most people can barely look at it for more than a split second so I really do wonder about the driver's eyesight. Either they have inadequate eyesight to drive or they just did not look. Ironically I rode on and the light indicated that the battery was running a bit low, so I set it 2 steps lower than the maximum setting. Then, at 2 settings lower than the maximum, I was riding on the footpath for the last couple of hundred metres to home. As I passed a pedestrian he averted his eyes and complained about the light.

Unbelievable, no matter how much light you put on the front of your bike morons will be morons.

DS


Classic example of being caught in a saccade.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Ross » Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:19 am

Wakatuki wrote:This is a fine news story example of how it can never the motorists fault. http://goo.gl/fokbW the weather is to blame, apparently.
Not driving in a manner suitable to condtions I say.

I know when I get to the top of the mountain and turn come back down if the rain has caught me unaware, I am riding to the conditions.
Perhaps it's because I have no airbags, or other numerous safety devices.
Sorry for the family's loss though, not something I wish upon anyone.


I agree. If the weather was to blame how come dozens (hundreds?) of other motorists managed to drive through that exact area at same time in same weather and didn't have a crash? Maybe the car was mechanically defective?

I guess we all know that newspapers don't let little things like facts get in the way of a good story. At the end of the day it's about selling newspapers not reporting facts.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby zero » Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:12 am

arkle wrote:
I'm sure this won't be a popular idea amongst cyclists but I think there are good reasons for modifying the riding-two-abreast rule such that it's only permissible to do so where cars are allowed to cross the centre line, and where a solid line prevents this cyclists should ride in single file.



http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/8866293 ... ent-flying

In a rather sad coincidence. Driver pulled back into the middle of the single file bunch.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby rdp_au » Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:21 am

DavidS wrote:Well I had a good one tonight.

My favourite intersection, the roundabout at the corner of New St, Bent Ave and Murphy St in Brighton next to Elsternwick Park. On the way home I was going North along New St. Car comes up on my left wanting to turn left into New St. I'm half way through the roundabout and the car just goes in front of me. Just ridiculous, I even had to swerve to miss the car. For once I decided to chase. I managed to catch the car and the driver just kept saying they didn't see me. On Saturday I bought a new light, 500 lumens and I ride with the light on full. How could they possibly not see me? I shined the light at them and they kept claiming they didn't see me, mind you the driver seemed quite unaffected by the light whereas most people can barely look at it for more than a split second so I really do wonder about the driver's eyesight. Either they have inadequate eyesight to drive or they just did not look. Ironically I rode on and the light indicated that the battery was running a bit low, so I set it 2 steps lower than the maximum setting. Then, at 2 settings lower than the maximum, I was riding on the footpath for the last couple of hundred metres to home. As I passed a pedestrian he averted his eyes and complained about the light.

Unbelievable, no matter how much light you put on the front of your bike morons will be morons.

DS


While it’s quite possible that the driver you encountered was indeed a moron, or had defective eyesight, what we are really talking about is the ability to perceive and correctly process visual information. Some people are better than others at this, but all of us have limitations. We see what we expect to see. Your driver was expecting to see a car, so it wouldn’t have mattered how much light you were blasting at him, you wouldn’t have registered. There’s no perfect solution to this, but in my experience, the best strategy is to make eye contact with the driver. I mean really make eye contact, not just see them looking in your direction. Once that’s happened, you at least know they’ve registered you as being there. What they do then will define them as a moron or not. If you don’t have proper eye contact, assume they haven’t seen you and act accordingly.
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