Moron Motorists #3

open topic, for anything cycling related.

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby feral grasshopper » Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:30 am

+1

I point and gesture a lot, means that one's outline is broken by movement and catches peeps eyes. that's the theory at least, either it works or i'm just lucky so far...... :?
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by BNA » Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:52 am

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Shred931 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:52 am

rdp_au wrote:
DavidS wrote:Well I had a good one tonight.

My favourite intersection, the roundabout at the corner of New St, Bent Ave and Murphy St in Brighton next to Elsternwick Park. On the way home I was going North along New St. Car comes up on my left wanting to turn left into New St. I'm half way through the roundabout and the car just goes in front of me. Just ridiculous, I even had to swerve to miss the car. For once I decided to chase. I managed to catch the car and the driver just kept saying they didn't see me. On Saturday I bought a new light, 500 lumens and I ride with the light on full. How could they possibly not see me? I shined the light at them and they kept claiming they didn't see me, mind you the driver seemed quite unaffected by the light whereas most people can barely look at it for more than a split second so I really do wonder about the driver's eyesight. Either they have inadequate eyesight to drive or they just did not look. Ironically I rode on and the light indicated that the battery was running a bit low, so I set it 2 steps lower than the maximum setting. Then, at 2 settings lower than the maximum, I was riding on the footpath for the last couple of hundred metres to home. As I passed a pedestrian he averted his eyes and complained about the light.

Unbelievable, no matter how much light you put on the front of your bike morons will be morons.

DS


While it’s quite possible that the driver you encountered was indeed a moron, or had defective eyesight, what we are really talking about is the ability to perceive and correctly process visual information. Some people are better than others at this, but all of us have limitations. We see what we expect to see. Your driver was expecting to see a car, so it wouldn’t have mattered how much light you were blasting at him, you wouldn’t have registered. There’s no perfect solution to this, but in my experience, the best strategy is to make eye contact with the driver. I mean really make eye contact, not just see them looking in your direction. Once that’s happened, you at least know they’ve registered you as being there. What they do then will define them as a moron or not. If you don’t have proper eye contact, assume they haven’t seen you and act accordingly.


Take a read of this and see what good trying to make eye contact will do. It may appear as though they've seen you, even looked at you, but in reality their brain has not registered that you're there at all.

http://www.londoncyclist.co.uk/raf-pilot-teach-cyclists/
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby rdp_au » Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:59 pm

Thanks for this Shred. I had seen that article before. I think that it agrees with what I am saying - here's the relevant passage

"when passing junctions, look at the head of the driver that is approaching or has stopped. The head of the driver will naturally stop and centre upon you if you have been seen. If the driver’s head sweeps through you without pausing, then the chances are that you are in a saccade – you must assume that you have not been seen and expect the driver to pull out!"

The key when making eye contact is to confirm as best we can that the driver has registered you. For me, a clue is the driver looking directly at me - and tracking me as our relative positions change. It's only really possible to do this when we are both travelling relatively slowly. A fast approaching car giving a cursory glance in my direction is a clear sign of danger!
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby bychosis » Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:39 pm

Not only do you have to work out if you have been seen, there is also the factor where the driver may not perceive our speed properly, nor understand how quickly we can change speed or direction.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Coolabah » Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:44 pm

bychosis wrote:Not only do you have to work out if you have been seen, there is also the factor where the driver may not perceive our speed properly, nor understand how quickly we can change speed or direction.

Yep. Or , you also need to factor in those that plain don't care ! That article about saccades is probably the most significant article I have read as regards my commuting on my bike. I now use those techniques to check that I don't miss seeing a car/truck... has saved my bacon at least once when I missed a TRUCK on my first scan but picked it up on my second , slower scan (whew !). I also recently witnessed a saccade situation when riding with a (less bike experienced ) mate .... we were crossing over some grass from a bike path onto a road, planning to cross over the road and continue from there... so , initially needed to check "right" , we were somewhat near a corner . I saw my mate quickly check to his right AND I COULD SEE A CAR WAS ALREADY VISIBLE WHEN HE CHECKED... but he started to proceeed across the road until I yelled "STOP MIKE YOU STUPID *&^(AT)$# " ( we are always polite to each other in our conversations which is why we are such great mates. Wouldn't want to cross his wife though !!!). He said to me "thanks, that car wasn't there when I looked , he must have been really moving" .... but , that is just not true .... the car was in "his saccade" . He looked , did not see, and that might have been all it took. To those that have not read that article by the RAF pilot, please do !!!
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Summernight » Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:52 pm

Coolabah wrote:That article about saccades is probably the most significant article I have read as regards my commuting on my bike. I now use those techniques to check that I don't miss seeing a car/truck... has saved my bacon at least once when I missed a TRUCK on my first scan but picked it up on my second , slower scan (whew !). I also recently witnessed a saccade situation when riding with a (less bike experienced ) mate .... we were crossing over some grass from a bike path onto a road, planning to cross over the road and continue from there... so , initially needed to check "right" , we were somewhat near a corner . I saw my mate quickly check to his right AND I COULD SEE A CAR WAS ALREADY VISIBLE WHEN HE CHECKED... but he started to proceeed across the road until I yelled "STOP MIKE YOU STUPID *&^(AT)$# " ( we are always polite to each other in our conversations which is why we are such great mates. Wouldn't want to cross his wife though !!!). He said to me "thanks, that car wasn't there when I looked , he must have been really moving" .... but , that is just not true .... the car was in "his saccade" . He looked , did not see, and that might have been all it took. To those that have not read that article by the RAF pilot, please do !!!


It was instructional and handy. Teachings like this should be mandatory in driver's courses to teach best practice techniques for learners on the road. If they start off with best practice it should become second nature faster than having to relearn techniques after you've already established your own way of driving.

The end paragraph may be a bit controversial though: :wink:

John Sullivan - RAF pilot wrote:So is wearing a helmet -every fighter pilot wears a helmet, even though it won’t make much difference if they hit the ground at 700 miles an hour! It’s about reducing the chances of less dramatic incidents causing fatal cranial injuries, unnecessarily. Go figure.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Lukeyboy » Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:06 pm

John Sullivan - RAF pilot wrote:So is wearing a helmet -every fighter pilot wears a helmet, even though it won’t make much difference if they hit the ground at 700 miles an hour! It’s about reducing the chances of less dramatic incidents causing fatal cranial injuries, unnecessarily. Go figure.


Someone is forgetting about radio coms (receiver and mics), sun visors/night vision attachments, some heads up displays and oxygen masks that all have to stay fixed under some very serious g forces while being able to quickly detach during ejections. One's helmet can also come in handy when it comes to landing from an ejection :P
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Coolabah » Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:47 pm

Lukeyboy wrote:
Someone is forgetting about radio coms (receiver and mics), sun visors/night vision attachments, some heads up displays and oxygen masks that all have to stay fixed under some very serious g forces while being able to quickly detach during ejections. One's helmet can also come in handy when it comes to landing from an ejection :P



wow... well all I can say is your bike commute is a little bit more involved than mine !!! :lol: :P
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Lukeyboy » Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:01 pm

Safety is paramount :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby InTheWoods » Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:25 pm

Had a trifecta today, unfortunately no video :(

1. Horn abuse and close shave. Didn't hold up driver as I came up behind them at the next red light, where they received some AZ (not enough time to talk to them).
2. Right hook requiring me to brake and swerve, from a lady who then strangely didn't want to talk to me when I came up to her window in the parking station, she looked scared and rolled her window up.
3. Horn abuse on way home, was just (5cm) inside the left lane marking to stay out of door zone but motorist decided I should have been in the BAZ/door zone...
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Coolabah » Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:12 pm

InTheWoods wrote:Had a trifecta today, unfortunately no video :(

1. Horn abuse and close shave. Didn't hold up driver as I came up behind them at the next red light, where they received some AZ (not enough time to talk to them).
2. Right hook requiring me to brake and swerve, from a lady who then strangely didn't want to talk to me when I came up to her window in the parking station, she looked scared and rolled her window up.
3. Horn abuse on way home, was just (5cm) inside the left lane marking to stay out of door zone but motorist decided I should have been in the BAZ/door zone...

Darn..

Yeh, colour me stupid but I finally worked out how to mount my gopro2 , its been there the last 2 weeks but b**ger me if I will remember to turn it on....

TOTALLY WISH I had this on video from today.... heading south on Windsor Rd Northmead , Sydney , the M2 turns off to the left..
1) it is a bus lane until around 50 m before... this is where I am...
2) as you approaching the M2 intersection , you need to drift to the right side of the lane ( which is now a left turn lane onto the M2 ) to pick up the bike lane which is there for , like 20 metres ( Geez, thanks RMS, RTA or whatever you call yourselves this minute... totally cool planning there dudes) ,
3) I am totally used to cars overtaking on the right , left hooking so that they can stop & wait in the queue...

Took the cake today... I was 1 car length from the last in the left turn queue , already in the bike lane when the car BEHIND me , swerved right , CUT LEFT and STOPPED straight away .. ( red lights for straight ahead & left turn )
.....a) blocking the bike lane
.....b)so nearly plowing into the stopped car in front
.....c) I was like a cm from his rear and nearly got side swiped DESPITE braking heavily... Can adrenaline actually kill you ? Felt like it could.

So, I rode another couple of metres to his window, looked at him and he wound down his window looking at me like I was some alien..
"Awesome driving mate ! " I said.....
Reply: "*ucking cyclists you should all be run over for free"

"well , your mother wears army boots" or something similar was all I could come up with ( epic fail !!!)


*sigh*
Can't argue with that sort of "logic" . Apparently we do not belong on the roads....

Can anyone think of some comeback for the next time ? I could not think of one at the time.....
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Percrime » Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:36 pm

Lukeyboy wrote:
John Sullivan - RAF pilot wrote:So is wearing a helmet -every fighter pilot wears a helmet, even though it won’t make much difference if they hit the ground at 700 miles an hour! It’s about reducing the chances of less dramatic incidents causing fatal cranial injuries, unnecessarily. Go figure.


Someone is forgetting about radio coms (receiver and mics), sun visors/night vision attachments, some heads up displays and oxygen masks that all have to stay fixed under some very serious g forces while being able to quickly detach during ejections. One's helmet can also come in handy when it comes to landing from an ejection :P


Smashed canopy. Without a helmet you are blind
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby jasonc » Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:42 pm

Coolabah wrote:Can anyone think of some comeback for the next time ? I could not think of one at the time.....


grab the keys and suggest they "fetch"
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Percrime » Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:56 pm

Tap the inoperative go pro and say... "Smile for the camera and say goodbye to your licence mate" I,ll be sure and push you off when I see you in a couple of weeks on your new bike
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby jules21 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:53 pm

Coolabah wrote:Can anyone think of some comeback for the next time ? I could not think of one at the time.....

it's fun to think of comebacks but better to just rise above it and act reasonably, letting them flap their wings about and make a fool of themselves. then just ride away shaking your head at their display.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby DavidS » Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:58 pm

rdp_au wrote:
DavidS wrote:Well I had a good one tonight.

My favourite intersection, the roundabout at the corner of New St, Bent Ave and Murphy St in Brighton next to Elsternwick Park. On the way home I was going North along New St. Car comes up on my left wanting to turn left into New St. I'm half way through the roundabout and the car just goes in front of me. Just ridiculous, I even had to swerve to miss the car. For once I decided to chase. I managed to catch the car and the driver just kept saying they didn't see me. On Saturday I bought a new light, 500 lumens and I ride with the light on full. How could they possibly not see me? I shined the light at them and they kept claiming they didn't see me, mind you the driver seemed quite unaffected by the light whereas most people can barely look at it for more than a split second so I really do wonder about the driver's eyesight. Either they have inadequate eyesight to drive or they just did not look. Ironically I rode on and the light indicated that the battery was running a bit low, so I set it 2 steps lower than the maximum setting. Then, at 2 settings lower than the maximum, I was riding on the footpath for the last couple of hundred metres to home. As I passed a pedestrian he averted his eyes and complained about the light.

Unbelievable, no matter how much light you put on the front of your bike morons will be morons.

DS


While it’s quite possible that the driver you encountered was indeed a moron, or had defective eyesight, what we are really talking about is the ability to perceive and correctly process visual information. Some people are better than others at this, but all of us have limitations. We see what we expect to see. Your driver was expecting to see a car, so it wouldn’t have mattered how much light you were blasting at him, you wouldn’t have registered. There’s no perfect solution to this, but in my experience, the best strategy is to make eye contact with the driver. I mean really make eye contact, not just see them looking in your direction. Once that’s happened, you at least know they’ve registered you as being there. What they do then will define them as a moron or not. If you don’t have proper eye contact, assume they haven’t seen you and act accordingly.


I agree that one should try and make eye contact and eye contact can be useful, although not foolproof (I always remember getting eye contact with lots of drivers who subsequently cut me off when driving trams, now that is beyond moronic). However, it was dark and no way to get eye contact.

I actually parked the bike in the shed and walked about 10 metres away to see how bright the light is. I was seeing stars for a while after. I really do think this driver had an eye problem as there was no reaction when I stopped and pointed it straight at them. Of course, they might have looked and not seen 2 headlights so they saw nothing, or maybe they just didn't care. In any case I take the view that people driving cars need to take more responsibility for their actions and take driving more seriously.

One irony of this incident is that it didn't make me nervous or scared, it just made me angry (that anger certainly turned me into a better sprinter than I thought, the adrenaline rush meant I went out of the saddle and just took off). I certainly did anticipate the incident so I was ready for it, but the driver did slow and then take off very late which is why I had to swerve. One good aspect was that I was well aware of whether there were any other cars around and knew where I could swerve.

Sometimes you just can't predict the idiocy, unfortunately my daughter found that out earlier this year while learning to drive and her car was written off even though she did everything right (and prevented injuries in my opinion).

On a brighter note I was riding in the same spot this evening, riding just before the roundabout, going past Elsternwick Park, there is a car park masquerading as a bike lane (you know, on street parking with a bit of extra room between the cars and the line painted on the road, a picture of a bike and just enough room to get doored). Anyway, a couple of cars do U turns in front of me, they had enough room, no problem there. Then they park and promptly open their doors and I must go out into the general traffic lane. Car quite close behind so I do a quick hand signal and move into the lane. Car behind me slows down, stays behind while I pass 3 parked cars with people getting out, even though he could have moved out and passed. So, I go around the parked cars, return to the fake bike lane as there are no more parked cars and the car passes me nice and safely. He lost no time as I caught him a bit later. He showed just how easy it is to drive with consideration for others.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby rdp_au » Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:35 am

Interesting point. Unfortunately, even if the driver did actually register your presence, that doesn’t preclude the display of aggressive, thoughtless, or just plain moronic behaviour. I think that very bright lights do make it difficult to judge the speed and distance of an approaching vehicle, especially if it's a single light – I know that’s my experience when confronted with a lumin nazi on a shared path. So it is possible that your driver did see the bright light, but had no idea what it was or where it was. Still no excuse for blithely pulling out as he did though.

I had my own version of your experience this morning. I was already in a roundabout turning right and could see a small car with P plates approaching rapidly from my left. The driver, a young woman, gave a cursory glance and drove straight into the roundabout without slowing at all. I was expecting something like this would happen and had slowed so she passed in front of me. I wasn’t in danger, but it was close enough for me to shake my head. I’m sure if I’d asked her if she had seen anyone in the roundabout, she would have said no.

Isn't it gratifying when drivers behave well, it shows that cars and bikes can mix together with minimal impact on each other with just a little cooperation.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby arkle » Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:04 am

rdp_au wrote:Interesting point. Unfortunately, even if the driver did actually register your presence, that doesn’t preclude the display of aggressive, thoughtless, or just plain moronic behaviour. I think that very bright lights do make it difficult to judge the speed and distance of an approaching vehicle, especially if it's a single light – I know that’s my experience when confronted with a lumin nazi on a shared path. So it is possible that your driver did see the bright light, but had no idea what it was or where it was. Still no excuse for blithely pulling out as he did though.

I had my own version of your experience this morning. I was already in a roundabout turning right and could see a small car with P plates approaching rapidly from my left. The driver, a young woman, gave a cursory glance and drove straight into the roundabout without slowing at all. I was expecting something like this would happen and had slowed so she passed in front of me. I wasn’t in danger, but it was close enough for me to shake my head. I’m sure if I’d asked her if she had seen anyone in the roundabout, she would have said no.

Isn't it gratifying when drivers behave well, it shows that cars and bikes can mix together with minimal impact on each other with just a little cooperation.


Double lights are also tricky, something I soon learned when I started riding motorbikes with twin headlights. At night you appear to be a distant car.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby BastardSheep » Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:44 am

arkle wrote:Double lights are also tricky, something I soon learned when I started riding motorbikes with twin headlights. At night you appear to be a distant car.


Personally it's flashing lights I have trouble judging distances and speed with in the dark. Solid lights I can tell how far off the cyclist is and their speed, but flashing I find impossible. Many a time I've found myself waiting WAY longer than necessary due to this. It's why I always keep one forward light solid on my bike, especially when it's pitch black. I only use flasher-only at dusk and other still-light times of day.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Marto » Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:43 pm

DavidS wrote:...
On a brighter note I was riding in the same spot this evening, riding just before the roundabout, going past Elsternwick Park, there is a car park masquerading as a bike lane (you know, on street parking with a bit of extra room between the cars and the line painted on the road, a picture of a bike and just enough room to get doored). Anyway, a couple of cars do U turns in front of me, they had enough room, no problem there. Then they park and promptly open their doors and I must go out into the general traffic lane. Car quite close behind so I do a quick hand signal and move into the lane. Car behind me slows down, stays behind while I pass 3 parked cars with people getting out, even though he could have moved out and passed. So, I go around the parked cars, return to the fake bike lane as there are no more parked cars and the car passes me nice and safely. He lost no time as I caught him a bit later. He showed just how easy it is to drive with consideration for others.

DS


Funny how motorists being civil and reasonable make you think you are the luckiest cyclist in Australia :roll:
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby DavidS » Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:42 pm

BastardSheep wrote:
arkle wrote:Double lights are also tricky, something I soon learned when I started riding motorbikes with twin headlights. At night you appear to be a distant car.


Personally it's flashing lights I have trouble judging distances and speed with in the dark. Solid lights I can tell how far off the cyclist is and their speed, but flashing I find impossible. Many a time I've found myself waiting WAY longer than necessary due to this. It's why I always keep one forward light solid on my bike, especially when it's pitch black. I only use flasher-only at dusk and other still-light times of day.


Yes, funny that, I always run my front light solid, no flashing. I think the rear light flashing was a great innovation, never been so convinced about the front light flashing. I have no problem with others having a flashing front light but for me I prefer a solid front light.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby trailgumby » Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:47 pm

I found that last night when I almost ran up the back of the tail end guy in a bunch of 6 or so roadies on the way home. I had serious problems judgning how far away and it was only by focussing on his back tyre that I could pick how close he was, My brain kept telling me he was more distant than he was.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Coolabah » Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:48 pm

jules21 wrote:
Coolabah wrote:Can anyone think of some comeback for the next time ? I could not think of one at the time.....

it's fun to think of comebacks but better to just rise above it and act reasonably, letting them flap their wings about and make a fool of themselves. then just ride away shaking your head at their display.


Thanks Jules , I think you might have been the wise short guy with pointy ears on Star Wars... seriously though , sage advice, try to follow I will :idea:
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby jules21 » Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:44 pm

Coolabah wrote:Thanks Jules , I think you might have been the wise short guy with pointy ears on Star Wars... seriously though , sage advice, try to follow I will :idea:

easier said than done, though, i should add!
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby RideLikeTheWind » Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:03 pm

About two streets from my home, there are two roundabouts preceded by a speed hump. As I came up the rise a couple of weeks ago toward the speed hump, I heard a bus behind me. I crossed the speed hump at about 35 (I can go around it) and the bus crossed after me. I rode toward the first roundabout and as I came toward it, the bus squeezed beside me, pushing me into a rolled curb where I had to unclog and dismount to avoid being run over or caught between the bus and the curb. I yelled some obscenity at the driver and noticed a woman across the street watching the incident. As the bus exited the roundabout, the back swung out and nearly took me out a second time (I had started moving a bit). The bus then slowed and turned right, which I had to wait for! I noted the time and route and on arriving home sent a complaint letter, including reference to the witness. The bus company did write back and after review of their CCTV acknowledged that the driver was clearly at fault and was 'counselled' regarding safe distances from bicycles.

I guess a good outcome, but scary that the driver was willing to take such a risk. I don't have a camera but I think, after that incident, I might get one. And insurance. And a lottery ticket.
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