Moron Motorists #3

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herzog
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby herzog » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:23 pm

mick243 wrote:
Why are people so desperate to defend the car? On a cycling forum no less!


I think it's because you've focussed on a relatively minor offense while theres the elephant in the room of a ten tonne truck weaving into the breakdown lane at 70mph!


Sorta like when a cyclist gets wiped out by a red light running truck, and then focussing on the fact that the rider doesn't have a bell fitted...


It's a matter of getting things into perspective.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby mick243 » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:26 pm

I never said, or meant to imply the truck had nothing to answer for....

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Mulger bill
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Mulger bill » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:28 pm

Not defending the car, just pointing out that thoughtless blind obedience can be no safer than considered decision.
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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Scarfy96
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Scarfy96 » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:30 pm

jules21 wrote:
Scarfy96 wrote:Um if a law isn't a law what is it?

So you are saying a law is what? A guideline? A recommendation? A suggestion? ......

read the rest of the discussion thread for context.


I have but just pointing out that this statement is wrong.

I don't actually disagree with you, but a law is a law. It is your choice if you break one and for what reasons and in what manner (and I am NOT saying that there are not situations that warrant breaking a law).

A law IS a law, just as your actions are your actions.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Slvr32gtr » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:35 pm

Mulger bill wrote:Not defending the car, just pointing out that thoughtless blind obedience can be no safer than considered decision.


Well said.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby jules21 » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:37 pm

Scarfy96 wrote:I have but just pointing out that this statement is wrong.

I don't actually disagree with you, but a law is a law. It is your choice if you break one and for what reasons and in what manner (and I am NOT saying that there are not situations that warrant breaking a law).

A law IS a law, just as your actions are your actions.

in the context of supporting a safe outcome, a law is not a law. that was my point. i think we all get it.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby mick243 » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:38 pm

Mulger bill wrote:Not defending the car, just pointing out that thoughtless blind obedience can be no safer than considered decision.

Unfortunately, most people making a " considered decision" are considering their time over other people's lives and happy with it.


Please show how making a considered decision to ignore a speed limit (or red light, stop sign, no parking, whatever) makes anything safer for all concerned.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Scarfy96 » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:41 pm

jules21 wrote:
Scarfy96 wrote:I have but just pointing out that this statement is wrong.

I don't actually disagree with you, but a law is a law. It is your choice if you break one and for what reasons and in what manner (and I am NOT saying that there are not situations that warrant breaking a law).

A law IS a law, just as your actions are your actions.

in the context of supporting a safe outcome, a law is not a law. that was my point. i think we all get it.


Wording is everything.

A law remains a law despite you saying it doesn't.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby jules21 » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:43 pm

Scarfy96 wrote:Wording is everything.

A law remains a law despite you saying it doesn't.

you're just baiting me now.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Scarfy96 » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:44 pm

jules21 wrote:
Scarfy96 wrote:Wording is everything.

A law remains a law despite you saying it doesn't.

you're just baiting me now.


No, just clarifying.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Mulger bill » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:46 pm

Tell yer wot Mick, tell us where you live and what you drive and one of us will follow you about all day, we'll see how perfect you are.

But since you wanted an example... I rode my bike across a pedestrian crossing yesterday WITHOUT a green man. It was late evening and no traffic-road or pedestrian-about.
Yep, broke a law, OOOOOOOHHH, naughty me! But did I inconvenience or endanger anyone? Nope.
Would I do that at 1510 when that area is choked with schoolkids and Mums Bullybus? Guess.
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby mick243 » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:54 pm

Mulger bill wrote:Tell yer wot Mick, tell us where you live and what you drive and one of us will follow you about all day, we'll see how perfect you are.

But since you wanted an example... I rode my bike across a pedestrian crossing yesterday WITHOUT a green man. It was late evening and no traffic-road or pedestrian-about.
Yep, broke a law, OOOOOOOHHH, naughty me! But did I inconvenience or endanger anyone? Nope.
Would I do that at 1510 when that area is choked with schoolkids and Mums Bullybus? Guess.


Never said I was perfect. Bt feel free to follow me and rate my riding/driving.

I also didn't ask for an example of a victimless offence.

I I asked for an example where deliberately breaking the law like speeding etc made it safer for all concerned.

You think drivers should be able to make decisions about following road laws - ask RIchard Pollett how he feels about that. There is a driver who made a decision about what he felt was safe. That decision cost a fellow human and cyclist his life. All to save a few minutes.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Scarfy96 » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:57 pm

Bingo Mulger bill.

You are NOT denying that the law is the law, in fact you acknowledge what it is. Had a copper watched you do that and been determined to book you for it then you would have had no recourse other than appealing to his better nature. Had it gone to a judge (extreme I know) you would have had no leg to stand on.

A law is a law.

However you used your judgement to make a call in that instance. That is your decision to do so. To be honest I would probably have made the same call as you in each instance but with the full knowledge of the above statements. In other instances we may differ.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby GeoffInBrisbane » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:59 pm

I don't actually remember anything in that video about the truck driver breaking the law in any case. IIRC the car driver states they saw him using a phone and the footage shows him swerving all over the road. Seems to me the video is condemning the driver for those actions and the fact that he might very well kill someone, not "he's breaking a law I regard as important, while I'm breaking a law I regard as unimportant".

I can see why looking at the video can give that impression, but they aren't quite the same if you are arguing his being a hypocrite. Again, to be clear, not saying he's alright to speed, just don't see that travelling five over negates his right to be upset when a truck swerves all over the road as a result of the driver not looking where he is going.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby jules21 » Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:04 pm

mick243 wrote:There is a driver who made a decision about what he felt was safe.

i doubt it.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby mick243 » Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:06 pm

GeoffInBrisbane wrote:I don't actually remember anything in that video about the truck driver breaking the law in any case. IIRC the car driver states they saw him using a phone and the footage shows him swerving all over the road. Seems to me the video is condemning the driver for those actions and the fact that he might very well kill someone, not "he's breaking a law I regard as important, while I'm breaking a law I regard as unimportant".

I can see why looking at the video can give that impression, but they aren't quite the same if you are arguing his being a hypocrite. Again, to be clear, not saying he's alright to speed, just don't see that travelling five over negates his right to be upset when a truck swerves all over the road as a result of the driver not looking where he is going.

Passing unsafeley.... The law requires you to pass safely.

Truck driver "thought it was safe"

So, do we trust drivers who "think it is safe"?


My answer, he'll no!

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby zero » Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:09 pm

mick243 wrote:
Mulger bill wrote:Tell yer wot Mick, tell us where you live and what you drive and one of us will follow you about all day, we'll see how perfect you are.

But since you wanted an example... I rode my bike across a pedestrian crossing yesterday WITHOUT a green man. It was late evening and no traffic-road or pedestrian-about.
Yep, broke a law, OOOOOOOHHH, naughty me! But did I inconvenience or endanger anyone? Nope.
Would I do that at 1510 when that area is choked with schoolkids and Mums Bullybus? Guess.


Never said I was perfect. Bt feel free to follow me and rate my riding/driving.

I also didn't ask for an example of a victimless offence.

I I asked for an example where deliberately breaking the law like speeding etc made it safer for all concerned.

You think drivers should be able to make decisions about following road laws - ask RIchard Pollett how he feels about that. There is a driver who made a decision about what he felt was safe. That decision cost a fellow human and cyclist his life. All to save a few minutes.


Richard Polletts death was caused by inappropriate overtaking, not speeding. The video has inappropriate overtaking on it. ie wherever you want to go with your perfect driving argument, I'd prefer to see the motorist in the video doing 80, and slowing down to 60 and waiting behind the truck until it was clear it was in control, instead of passing a swerving truck even if it was right on 70 and then moaning about it later.

The exact same principle applies to double white lines and me riding a bicycle. If I'm doing 20 climbing, and the motorist can see a sufficient distance ahead, I'm perfectly cool with them overtaking by crossing them, and would prefer they did so than trying to squeeze between me and the completely arbitrary line that they cannot collide with, I just wish we could train motorists to understand that before the apex of a corner means you cannot see far enough to pass any vehicle.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby jules21 » Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:12 pm

mick243 wrote:Truck driver "thought it was safe"

no, faced with potential criminal charges, he said he thought it was safe. whether he really thought that is another matter. i'd suggest he thought it was safe for him..

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby GeoffInBrisbane » Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:14 pm

jules21 wrote:
mick243 wrote:There is a driver who made a decision about what he felt was safe.

i doubt it.


More SMIDGAF than making any decision on safety at all, I suspect.

mick243 wrote:
GeoffInBrisbane wrote:I don't actually remember anything in that video about the truck driver breaking the law in any case. IIRC the car driver states they saw him using a phone and the footage shows him swerving all over the road. Seems to me the video is condemning the driver for those actions and the fact that he might very well kill someone, not "he's breaking a law I regard as important, while I'm breaking a law I regard as unimportant".

I can see why looking at the video can give that impression, but they aren't quite the same if you are arguing his being a hypocrite. Again, to be clear, not saying he's alright to speed, just don't see that travelling five over negates his right to be upset when a truck swerves all over the road as a result of the driver not looking where he is going.

Passing unsafeley.... The law requires you to pass safely.

Truck driver "thought it was safe"

So, do we trust drivers who "think it is safe"?


My answer, he'll no!


Where did I talk about drivers' perception of making safe decisions in that post? You're arguing against a point I didn't make. Again, I don't see that doing five over the limit (try getting a ticket from a cop on a UK motorway for that, you'd have to be flicking him the v-signs to make him care) negates his right to be upset that somebody in command of a ten tonne truck is not even looking at the road.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby warthog1 » Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:18 pm

This is a page of pedantry :roll:
Just sayin

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby mick243 » Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:22 pm

GeoffInBrisbane wrote:
jules21 wrote:
mick243 wrote:There is a driver who made a decision about what he felt was safe.

i doubt it.


More SMIDGAF than making any decision on safety at all, I suspect.

mick243 wrote:
GeoffInBrisbane wrote:I don't actually remember anything in that video about the truck driver breaking the law in any case. IIRC the car driver states they saw him using a phone and the footage shows him swerving all over the road. Seems to me the video is condemning the driver for those actions and the fact that he might very well kill someone, not "he's breaking a law I regard as important, while I'm breaking a law I regard as unimportant".

I can see why looking at the video can give that impression, but they aren't quite the same if you are arguing his being a hypocrite. Again, to be clear, not saying he's alright to speed, just don't see that travelling five over negates his right to be upset when a truck swerves all over the road as a result of the driver not looking where he is going.

Passing unsafeley.... The law requires you to pass safely.

Truck driver "thought it was safe"

So, do we trust drivers who "think it is safe"?


My answer, he'll no!


Where did I talk about drivers' perception of making safe decisions in that post? You're arguing against a point I didn't make. Again, I don't see that doing five over the limit (try getting a ticket from a cop on a UK motorway for that, you'd have to be flicking him the v-signs to make him care) negates his right to be upset that somebody in command of a ten tonne truck is not even looking at the road.

Whoops, apologies Geoff, I misread your last and was speaking of the Pollett v cement truck incident.

In your posted video, the truck is far far more dangerous than the car taking the video. My initial comment on that was mer of an observation of "pot, pot, this is kettle, you are black, over"... I regard any wilful violation of the law as a bad thing.
Of course a negligent violation of the law is also bad.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby MisuVir » Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:24 pm

warthog1 wrote:This is a page of pedantry :roll:
Just sayin


Well... it IS the thread where we talk about morons. Just saying. :wink:

:D

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby GeoffInBrisbane » Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:07 pm

MisuVir wrote:
warthog1 wrote:This is a page of pedantry :roll:
Just sayin


Well... it IS the thread where we talk about morons. Just saying. :wink:

:D


:lol: I'll cop that... :lol:
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby The 2nd Womble » Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:18 pm

Image
The only good Cyclist is a Bicyclist

Huge fan of booted RGers who just can't help themselves

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby InTheWoods » Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:11 pm

I just read your update on fb.

I am bowing before your magnificence and Craig's willingness to take this all the way :D

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