open topic, for anything cycling related.
This was a typical road rage incident. It doesn't much matter who started it - each side escalated and escalated again and as a result several people were severely injured.
The message is plain, and it's one the police issue regularly - if you are involved in a traffic incident, do not retaliate. Do not rage.
Seems to me that if that biker bunch wanted that piece of road, the sensible thing would be to let them have it.
Suggestions that the bikers wanted to close the road to hoon are pure conjecture. I think they simply didn't want cars pulling into the middle of the bunch, any more than s bunch of cyclists wants a car pulling into the middle if the bunch.
I have ridden in many large motorcycle convoys and toy runs - the last thing you would want is to have an suv pulling out in the middle if the run.
Cycle touring blog and tour journals: whispering wheels...
Defence which I stated earlier, we might presume the police have some significant physical evidence of ie. battered Range Rover with slashed tyres.
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
That is my first reaction too. If my child is in the car, there is no way I am going to try and assert any sort of dominance over a group of riders. Of course this may be in doubt, as this all may have started a while before the footage.
As an aside, you never have the camera on when you need it. Yesterday a 4x4 gave way to me as well as a learner driver. And now no one will ever believe me....
I suppose the point I was trying to make was, we don't know all the evidence (and I have no interest in being an internet detective/cop). There is a fair bit of chatter on the internet about it, news sources etc. If they were being perfect gentlemen, then the motorbikes would have made a path for the RR to pull to the side of the highway to exchange details (I've never seen an accident where everyone stopped in the middle of the highway to discuss and transfer details). The biker involved in the incident was still upright and never fell over, no no need to render first aid assistance. In my mind (possibly as a result of the training I've done with work), you never place yourself in a position where a vehicle could run over you (if things get heated, never be in front or directly behind a vehicle).
All that being said, when you watch the video, the guy that has the incident with the RR is the ONLY rider to actually have a problem with the car, the other riders go around it and don't bat an eyelid, even when he's gesturing and looking back at it, he's the only one. Even when they pull over, there's a white van that they all let go through, so again, the RR is the only vehicle targeted.
This group of riders has been known to do this sort of silly stunts in the past, there's lots of videos of them out there. They go out there to ride and do stupid stuff and to do that, they do things like deny access to the highway to the general public because they want to be safer to play their silly games. So they're not perfect gentlemen, all riders knew what the ride entailed before they joined. If they didn't agree with what was going on in the ride, then they wouldn't have signed up. I'm not saying they all deserve to die, or get run over. But if you deny access to a public resource and then do stupid stuff like try to pull over cars, something, somewhere is going to go wrong, they're lucky it wasn't some gangster with a few automatic weapons.
I actually don't believe it was the fault of the RR and the original rider, yes, he slowed and stopped the car which is a stupid thing to do, but I think the guy was actually walking back to his bike when the other morons started slashing the tyres and smashing the car. If I were in the same position, I would've floored it. If that is how it went down, then that's not escalation, that's getting the stuff out of dodge for his and his family's safety. In my mind, the only thing the driver may be responsible, is being slow to react on the brakes and hitting the bike, an incident caused by the bike swerving in front of him and slowing (he was looking at the RR when he did it, so knew exactly what he was doing).
Actually there are quite a few videos of this group of riders doing exactly that. Closing the road and stopping people from entering the highway. On one video, so they could see who did the longest mono. In these videos they also EXIT the highway via the ON ramp, and have to avoid cars and police cars in the process. So I would be agreeing with what's being said about their road closures.
Actually, to prove you can't trust all witnesses....
from CBS News.
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
London Boy 29/12/2011
this is moving way off the point of what i was hoping to discuss. i get that they are a bunch of outlaws. but you still need to judge their actions individually. crazy stuff done by riders associated with the same bunch 2 years ago, or even at the same ride recently can't be held directly against each individual, nor does it give impunity to others - i.e. the car driver. trying to demonstrate that they got what they deserved - yep, i'd probably agree - at a personal level. but it's dangerous once police start making moral judgments about an individual's eligibility to be protected by the law. that bit scares me.
I have to agree with that. And what might have happened if you were in a protection convoy, as sometimes occurs in some overseas countries with a reputation for danger and violence on the road? I'm pretty certain your minders wouldn't have hesitated to ram those motorcycles over and do everything they could to keep them away from your car.
The behaviour shown here looked pretty bad. Now it may be that they were totally innocent and acting like total angels, but I don't think so.
Is traffic behaviour now getting so bad that we need armed guards to protect us now?
Last edited by g-boaf on Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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they were not angels. it's similar to mouthing off at people in a pub. you might only be making cheeky jokes, but don't be surprised if someone king hits you. the analogy here is the policeman saying "this guy was mouthing off and got what he deserved." we all may think the same thing, but the correct response from the police would still be to arrest the violent perpetrator.
it's not that much of an extension in logic for police to reason "well, what do they expect riding on the road?"
If I were in the same situation I would have had the misses on the phone to the police, and in all seriousness after initially fleeing I probably would have been knocking over any bike that tried to slow me down, you take a few of them out and they'll eventually stop chasing you. I also wouldn't have exited the freeway to somewhere where there was mostly likely traffic.
So, to cut a long story short - in your view, who is guilty, the motorbike riders or the car driver?
Given the experience I have with hooning motorbike riders (we get heaps of them in my area doing wheelies and doing more than 100km/h above the speed limit) - I'm inclined to look on the motorbike riders with a degree of suspicion. For the same reasons that car drivers are excused from being aggressive towards bicycle riders because we "break the law" all the time.
However, I'd be just as much inclined to support the motorbike riders if it turned out the car driver had intended from the word go to attack the motorbike riders and they were simply defending themselves.
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Specialized Langster Pro
I agree, but what can we (only going on the video etc. that's been seen) prove. You can prove a motorcycle cut in front and slowed down in front of the vehicle while looking back at it. Now, what can we prove about the driver's actions, we see that he tapped the bike, did he mean to? Did he think 'bugger you, I'm gunna learn ya, while my wife and 2yo daughter are in the car? did he not hit the brakes as hard as he could've? Did he just react too slowly or misinterpret what the bike was doing (may have expected him not to slow as much as he did?
As for the bloke that got run over, the other bike rider was walking back to his car, if you are to stop and render assistance, why not park on the side of the highway? Why be near the car if the other rider is walking away? Why be near the car if others are slashing the tyres and smashing the vehicle (reportedly)? I would argue that it's the people that started slashing tyres etc. that caused the reaction to floor it and got the guy run over. Is he innocent? Well, he's participating in a ride which promotes and encourages unsafe riding and puts members of the public at risk, so judge that as you will. Did he deserve to be run over because of this, no I don't believe he did. Who's responsible for that? Well, people will say the driver, but I think it's his fellow riders that started damaging the car (considering that the initial guy who hit the car was walking away, therefore dispute over, situation over, idiots start a new situation).
My comment on the group closing roads was one to say, they've done it before on their rides, so there more than likely would be an element of truth in it (given the other bikes in the video which are stopped on entrance ramps and don't have video cameras in their hands, so they're not filming the group go by.
Yep, agreed, never would've gotten off the highway and just keep going if they follow you and have the passenger on the phone to police stating a threat to life.
Both, regardless of the situation, if you're going to drive over people/vehicles, or smash your way into a car and assault the occupant then you should expect consequences.
When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments- Elizabeth West.
i'd tend to agree. but it's unclear where this claim stems from (it's not on video) and my focus was on the driver's initial reaction - which is what led to the situation spiraling out of control. it's conceivable that the driver bumped the first rider after being distracted - we'll never know for certain. i'm just a bit sus.. my complaint - again - was the enthusiasm with which the police declared that the driver was completely innocent. i would have thought some more healthy scepticism was in order.
If these riders have a history of it, then that will come out too. People have cameras, and there will be evidence of it.
We need to focus on why the motorbike riders were there in such a huge group and what they were attempting to do. I'm sure they were only there for a really slow ride on a nice day. Right?
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Specialized Langster Pro
I don't understand why there is a debate when it is clear that the number of morons > 1
Drive into vehicle in front of you = moron
Leave the scene of a crash = moron
Beat the carp out of someone cause you don't like their driving = moron
Time to move on
. . . . . . .
Yep, that's true. But we have no idea what evidence the police had seen prior to issuing that statement, they may have other footage on file which hasn't been released to the public, they may have statements which describe people damaging the vehicle, who knows. This is the problem of deciding and attributing blame on the internet. There's so many unknowns in these instances that it's hard to judge anything and I'm not really interested in being an internet detective.
Anyway, I think I've had my fill on this, understand your point and I think we both have similar views.
Returning to normal programming, we did two laps of St Peters this morning as part of our riverloop. Riding up Lambert Rd I saw ute drivers being idiots on two consecutive approaches to the Harts Rd roundabout. Second time out was a fairly common pass in the roundabout. Not particularly clever. First time however was complete stupidity. Driver zoomed past out group as we were about 75 metres from the roundabout, fast but at least wide. Two single cyclists ahead of us. Zoomed past the first one, reached the second one a couple of metres before the roundabout. Decided to pass him anyway, got alongside him as they entered the roundabout, then stuck his indicator on and turned left into Harts Rd. Cyclist was going straight on and had to stop or die. W@****! Wish I had a camera running...
In that situation I would gave done what the driver did. As soon as they started trashing the car I wouldn't give a damn and would have driven over the bikes the get the hell out if there.
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I've been in that situation myself, where an overwhelming force is approaching my car with the intention of causing me serious physical harm, and I did not hesitate to drive up a kerb and over someone's front garden to get to safety. I imagine the flight response would have been even stronger if I'd had my wife and child in the car with me. In those circumstances I doubt that the driver made a conscious decision to drive over the motorbike and injure the biker; it would have been an automatic response to the danger.
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