Moron Motorists #3

open topic, for anything cycling related.

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby oxonabike » Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:42 am

I know you probably mentioned it to emphasise that the driver had no reason to pass you. Thoughts?


Exacary!! Also to re-emphasise that the taxi was speeding on a very shared piece of road
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by BNA » Thu Dec 05, 2013 12:02 pm

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby InTheWoods » Thu Dec 05, 2013 12:02 pm

dazzpete wrote:First time post and unfortunately it's to add to the Moron Motorist list. This guy had two goes at passing really close then decides to pull over ahead of me and ask me what my (NSFW) problem was!

Really, am I the one with the problem?


Close passes are not ok, full stop.

However keep in mind that right in front of the guy you ride illegally, by not turning left from a left turn lane while simultaneously passing him closer than he passed you, exhibiting your own must get in front attitude there. It helps (but definitely does not guarantee) to get respect if you don't overtake people illegally. I'm not trying to blame you for somebody else's dangerous actions, but you should be riding legally yourself.

You also seem to ride in/out/in/out of the road by continually crossing the edge line. Every time you do that you need to be giving way to traffic behind you.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby arkle » Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:04 pm

InTheWoods wrote:
dazzpete wrote:First time post and unfortunately it's to add to the Moron Motorist list. This guy had two goes at passing really close then decides to pull over ahead of me and ask me what my (NSFW) problem was!

Really, am I the one with the problem?


Close passes are not ok, full stop.

However keep in mind that right in front of the guy you ride illegally, by not turning left from a left turn lane while simultaneously passing him closer than he passed you, exhibiting your own must get in front attitude there. It helps (but definitely does not guarantee) to get respect if you don't overtake people illegally. I'm not trying to blame you for somebody else's dangerous actions, but you should be riding legally yourself.

You also seem to ride in/out/in/out of the road by continually crossing the edge line. Every time you do that you need to be giving way to traffic behind you.


What. A. Nutter.

I don't think it's entirely fair to say he shouldn't have passed the ute closely at the first lights. The cars were stationary and dazzpete was trying to get to the front of the queue by staying as far to the right of the left turning lane as he could, which didn't require crossing a solid lane anyway. The guy in the car just seems totally pissed that the bicycle kept getting in front of him. And as for swerving in and out of the bike lane, for the middle part of the video it doesn't even look wide enough to be a bike lane. What is it? The shoulder?

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby wellington_street » Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:06 pm

InTheWoods wrote:Close passes are not ok, full stop.

However keep in mind that right in front of the guy you ride illegally, by not turning left from a left turn lane while simultaneously passing him closer than he passed you, exhibiting your own must get in front attitude there. It helps (but definitely does not guarantee) to get respect if you don't overtake people illegally. I'm not trying to blame you for somebody else's dangerous actions, but you should be riding legally yourself.

You also seem to ride in/out/in/out of the road by continually crossing the edge line. Every time you do that you need to be giving way to traffic behind you.


Good points.

But wow, what an absolutely horridly laid out road for cycling. So much useless shoulder that starts/ends frequently and that cycle lane :shock: It's barely 1.25, even including the gutter.

This sort of road makes cyclists feel they should be on the left, because there's a white line and a disappearing shoulder, and makes motorists think that too, when the safest place is actually the middle of the lane.

And where there's actually a useable cycle lane, it is marked to end at every single side street, making cyclists give way to vehicles wanting to turn left across them.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby wellington_street » Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:10 pm

arkle wrote:I don't think it's entirely fair to say he shouldn't have passed the ute closely at the first lights. The cars were stationary and dazzpete was trying to get to the front of the queue by staying as far to the right of the left turning lane as he could, which didn't require crossing a solid lane anyway.


The pass isn't an issue imo, it's the proceeding straight (or even right?) from a left turn only lane that is illegal and no doubt would've been noticed by dazzapete's mate in the Toyota.

Wanting to get in front is no reason to disobey the road rules like that. You would be posting the video here if you saw a car do the same thing safely.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby jules21 » Thu Dec 05, 2013 2:01 pm

while that driver seemed pretty confused in general, it's an example of why i tend to hang back in queues of traffic, where they are going to flow freely once let loose by the lights. i know it's not illegal to filter to the front, but it's one of those things where the risks usually outweigh the gains.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Scarfy96 » Thu Dec 05, 2013 2:35 pm

jules21 wrote:while that driver seemed pretty confused in general, it's an example of why i tend to hang back in queues of traffic, where they are going to flow freely once let loose by the lights. i know it's not illegal to filter to the front, but it's one of those things where the risks usually outweigh the gains.


This.

MGIF is a criticism often levelled at motorists but seems to me cyclists do the same quite regularly because they "can go faster over a speed hump" or similar. If there is a good cycle lane then fine filter up the left but if not then why endanger yourself again? If it is a strava segment then strava is too important to you, give it up, there really is no reason other than MGIF - it might cost you 10s, which is exactly what we are often critical of motorists of.

That said, tradie was a total prat.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby InTheWoods » Thu Dec 05, 2013 2:53 pm

wellington_street wrote:But wow, what an absolutely horridly laid out road for cycling. So much useless shoulder that starts/ends frequently and that cycle lane :shock: It's barely 1.25, even including the gutter.

This sort of road makes cyclists feel they should be on the left, because there's a white line and a disappearing shoulder, and makes motorists think that too, when the safest place is actually the middle of the lane.

And where there's actually a useable cycle lane, it is marked to end at every single side street, making cyclists give way to vehicles wanting to turn left across them.


Yeh gotta agree with that. Its terrible design. At a few points I saw a bicycle lane start sign, but bicycle lanes end at the next intersection unless the bicycle lane markings cross the intersection. The narrow bits were bad. The markings do not follow austroads guidelines. Good work, that council.

jules21 wrote:while that driver seemed pretty confused in general, it's an example of why i tend to hang back in queues of traffic, where they are going to flow freely once let loose by the lights. i know it's not illegal to filter to the front, but it's one of those things where the risks usually outweigh the gains.

+1 I usually claim the lane and join the back of queues in situations like that, why bother going past when they all have to go past me again. Once through the intersection, if the lanes are wide, I would stop claiming the lane again. If there was an adequate bike lane or shoulder up to, through, and past the intersection I might pass on the left, but there wasn't one at all at that point. In particular I wouldn't use a left turn only lane to overtake cars obeying the law in the straight ahead lane.

Edit: ps. welcome to the forum! Don't take these posts hard, most people need some constructive advice every now and then. Me included. :oops:
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Scarfy96 » Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:55 pm

In his defence - watch the video again - it is NOT a left hand turn lane (AT) 2min mark as a few of you have claimed, looks like a bus stop but at the intersection there is no left hand turn lane - in fact the lane has finished and the gutter returns out to the dual lanes, so he didn't overtake on the left on a left hand turn lane, he overtakes on the left in a side lane that looks like a bus stop but ends prior to the intersection.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby zero » Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:36 pm

Scarfy96 wrote:
jules21 wrote:while that driver seemed pretty confused in general, it's an example of why i tend to hang back in queues of traffic, where they are going to flow freely once let loose by the lights. i know it's not illegal to filter to the front, but it's one of those things where the risks usually outweigh the gains.


This.

MGIF is a criticism often levelled at motorists but seems to me cyclists do the same quite regularly because they "can go faster over a speed hump" or similar. If there is a good cycle lane then fine filter up the left but if not then why endanger yourself again? If it is a strava segment then strava is too important to you, give it up, there really is no reason other than MGIF - it might cost you 10s, which is exactly what we are often critical of motorists of.

That said, tradie was a total prat.


That bicycle is being ridden at the average traffic speed for the road. If the motorists don't wish to provide the bicycle rider with a full traffic lane for that purpose then they realistically should not expect the bicycle rider to be delayed by their stupid traffic queues, caused by using 5 seat dual track vehicles to move 1 occupant. Especially when the traffic is fairly light, and there is a whole second lane provided largely for the purpose of passing slower vehicles.

Note whilst I wouldn't have passed the queues, there were numerous locations on that journey where I would have fully occupied the traffic lane for my own safety.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby wellington_street » Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:37 pm

Scarfy96 wrote:In his defence - watch the video again - it is NOT a left hand turn lane (AT) 2min mark as a few of you have claimed, looks like a bus stop but at the intersection there is no left hand turn lane - in fact the lane has finished and the gutter returns out to the dual lanes, so he didn't overtake on the left on a left hand turn lane, he overtakes on the left in a side lane that looks like a bus stop but ends prior to the intersection.


I think you're looking at the wrong section of the video - from 0:35 to 0:46 the cyclists definitely turns right from a left turn only lane. He's lucky one of those vehicles wasn't going straight ahead. (It is a minor street and probably unlikely so I just cyclist was betting nobody would)

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Scarfy96 » Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:01 pm

zero wrote:That bicycle is being ridden at the average traffic speed for the road. If the motorists don't wish to provide the bicycle rider with a full traffic lane for that purpose then they realistically should not expect the bicycle rider to be delayed by their stupid traffic queues, caused by using 5 seat dual track vehicles to move 1 occupant. Especially when the traffic is fairly light, and there is a whole second lane provided largely for the purpose of passing slower vehicles.

Note whilst I wouldn't have passed the queues, there were numerous locations on that journey where I would have fully occupied the traffic lane for my own safety.


Re the 2nd para - I agree, I would have as well.

Re the first para, apply the 2nd, but when my safety is my key concern then I don't see the value of a MGIF attitude that we often criticise motorists of "because we can". Seems hypocritical to me. I can do that 50m faster than cars so I will get in front of them there and save myself 10s and then slow them up again or alternatively I can move through the same area much more safely and cost myself 10s, not hold up others and everyone is safer and happier - motorists haven't been delayed and I haven't had a near death experience.

Whilst "technically" many of these posts in the MM thread show a motorist at fault (and I am in no way defending them) I regularly watch one and think "why put yourself in that position?" I fail to see the value of putting myself into a dangerous position "because I can go a bit faster than the traffic here" - to me it is the same MGIF attitude we criticise motorists of.

I use terms like "regularly" here but in no way imply a percentage. I haven't done that analysis of how many fit into that category, it is a generalisation of some of the videos I see posted here, certainly NOT all.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Scarfy96 » Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:05 pm

wellington_street wrote:
Scarfy96 wrote:In his defence - watch the video again - it is NOT a left hand turn lane (AT) 2min mark as a few of you have claimed, looks like a bus stop but at the intersection there is no left hand turn lane - in fact the lane has finished and the gutter returns out to the dual lanes, so he didn't overtake on the left on a left hand turn lane, he overtakes on the left in a side lane that looks like a bus stop but ends prior to the intersection.


I think you're looking at the wrong section of the video - from 0:35 to 0:46 the cyclists definitely turns right from a left turn only lane. He's lucky one of those vehicles wasn't going straight ahead. (It is a minor street and probably unlikely so I just cyclist was betting nobody would)

Location is here: http://goo.gl/maps/OnxsJ


Ahh ok, I thought the reference was to the pass at the next set of traffic lights.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby il padrone » Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:10 pm

Scarfy96 wrote:MGIF is a criticism often levelled at motorists but seems to me cyclists do the same quite regularly because they "can go faster over a speed hump" or similar. If there is a good cycle lane then fine filter up the left but if not then why endanger yourself again? If it is a strava segment then strava is too important to you, give it up, there really is no reason other than MGIF - it might cost you 10s, which is exactly what we are often critical of motorists of.

Nup, I ride a bike because it has some advantages - no fuel cost, good exercise, fun, and I can filter through clogged traffic. It's not my fault that all the motorists take up so much space for each single person that they clog the roads.

Filtering through should always be done wisely. I would most often pass one lane out, to avoid the left-turners. I stop in traffic if the road is really crammed, but if there is reasonable room I filter. And it's not really MGIF, but rather for my safety. Being stopped in a mass of traffic who all have their 'cyclist blinkers' on is never a good option. More particulary, if you stop 10-20 cars back from the lights, then when the traffic moves off the cars behind you get all anxious and aggro at your 'slow' speed as the gap opens ahead to the car in front. "We might miss the light!!" Horn blasts, tail-gating, engine-revving and close shaves are the result. Much safer to go to the front and ride off ahead of traffic, then deal with the overtakers.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby zero » Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:33 pm

Scarfy96 wrote:Re the first para, apply the 2nd, but when my safety is my key concern then I don't see the value of a MGIF attitude that we often criticise motorists of "because we can". Seems hypocritical to me. I can do that 50m faster than cars so I will get in front of them there and save myself 10s and then slow them up again or alternatively I can move through the same area much more safely and cost myself 10s, not hold up others and everyone is safer and happier - motorists haven't been delayed and I haven't had a near death experience.


He's a KRAAC, or keep rolling at all costs, rather different to an MGIF. an MGIF does not care or even consider what will happen when he overtakes someone (ie the archtypical overtake me whilst i'm doing the speed limit and then stop to 10km/hr to cross a speed hump), where as this rider was going to considerable efforts to stay too far left and not baulk people. Being 10 cars back at a set of lights costs 30 seconds. Travelling behind a bicycle doing 45 in a 60 zone for 1 minute, costs 15 seconds, and I doubt he baulked anyone for 15 seconds, let alone 1 minute.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby il padrone » Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:49 pm

"What..... 15 seconds delay? Not possible"
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby zero » Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:16 pm

il padrone wrote:"What..... 15 seconds delay? Not possible"


Yeah I know - people that drive and take risks but can't do maths to determine what those risks are. ie being stuck behind a car doing 90 in a 100 zone, is all of 1 second added for the drivers journey for every 10 second behind them. If it takes 2 kms to find a space to pass, it adds a whole 8 seconds to their journey time. Yet people will have fatal accidents because of it.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby trailgumby » Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:59 pm

il padrone wrote:And it's not really MGIF, but rather for my safety. Being stopped in a mass of traffic who all have their 'cyclist blinkers' on is never a good option. More particulary, if you stop 10-20 cars back from the lights, then when the traffic moves off the cars behind you get all anxious and aggro at your 'slow' speed as the gap opens ahead to the car in front. "We might miss the light!!" Horn blasts, tail-gating, engine-revving and close shaves are the result. Much safer to go to the front and ride off ahead of traffic, then deal with the overtakers.

Indeed. x 10 ^6
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby bychosis » Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:45 pm

As it is often, there is more than one way to ride with traffic. I have done both, filter to the front and hang in the queue. I will continue to do both depending on the situation. Traffic volumes, space for riding, how I feel (energetic?) and others all vary the situation. Watching these video, reading the MM stories will help me learn what can happen and help me stay safer.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby wellington_street » Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:08 pm

^ Good post. Also depends on driver behaviour you see around you.

On my ride home tonight I filtered down the left (in the lane) and stopped at the front of the queue in the bike box. No problems from the driver(s) behind me.

Two lights later I did the same thing and stopped at the front of the queue (no bike box). The idiot behind me decided he would overtake me through the intersection (safely, though, I will acknowledge) and get to the next red light (which is red for all but about 5 seconds per minute) about 5 seconds quicker. It would have been amusing to filter past him again, as the narrows and he wouldn't be able to get in front again, however alas I had to turn off to stay on my route.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby NhiTrac » Fri Dec 06, 2013 7:05 am

Was almost taken out by an elderly lady early this morning about 100m away from home. She was making a left hand turn coming out a side street and as I passed in front of her car she went to accelerate only slamming on the brakes at the last second.

She profusley apologised as she caught up to me and it was at that moment I noticed she was also holding a coffee mug. Not one of those travel safe mugs. But a mug mug :shock:
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Wakatuki » Fri Dec 06, 2013 7:17 am

InTheWoods wrote:
il padrone wrote:Fair enough. But that is probably why the elderly lady drove on.... a bit of rule confusion.


How is a stop sign pointing at you confusing? She shouldn't be driving.


Same as the lady who forced me off the road totally oblivious to her surroundings. QLD Police, powerless unless your writing the statement from your hospital bed. Allegedly. ;)
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby InTheWoods » Fri Dec 06, 2013 7:46 am

Wakatuki wrote:
InTheWoods wrote:
il padrone wrote:Fair enough. But that is probably why the elderly lady drove on.... a bit of rule confusion.


How is a stop sign pointing at you confusing? She shouldn't be driving.


Same as the lady who forced me off the road totally oblivious to her surroundings. QLD Police, powerless unless your writing the statement from your hospital bed. Allegedly. ;)


No that's oportunity to falsify your witness statement, and give the driver a minor ticket for something the driver didn't actually do and can get off in court.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby dazzpete » Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:32 am

wellington_street wrote:^ Good post. Also depends on driver behaviour you see around you.

On my ride home tonight I filtered down the left (in the lane) and stopped at the front of the queue in the bike box. No problems from the driver(s) behind me.

Two lights later I did the same thing and stopped at the front of the queue (no bike box). The idiot behind me decided he would overtake me through the intersection (safely, though, I will acknowledge) and get to the next red light (which is red for all but about 5 seconds per minute) about 5 seconds quicker. It would have been amusing to filter past him again, as the narrows and he wouldn't be able to get in front again, however alas I had to turn off to stay on my route.


Interesting to see the different opinions on my first post. No, I'm not going to take them all to heart but I will take them on board. Anyway this happened a little earlier in the ride out at the end of Pallarenda. I will probably tke it up with Townsville City Council but I'm not sure they will do much about it. Pretty sure MGIF sums it all up.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby jules21 » Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:34 am

what a numpty.
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