Moron Motorists #3

open topic, for anything cycling related.

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Wakatuki » Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:15 am

Car stuck as woman accidentally drives along tracks..... http://goo.gl/bhkaTW
The elderly woman drove about 600m along the tracks from near the Queens Park Tennis Centre on Queen Street at about 8.15am.

The same sort of person who is obviously easily confused by road situations. The same sort of person I asked to be questioned by police for suitability to drive after a light connect. The same person who will accidently kill with 2 tonnes of metal but always be innocent. Sorry to rant but these blasé drivers really annoy me.
User avatar
Wakatuki
 
Posts: 764
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:15 pm
Location: Qld

by BNA » Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:19 am

BNA
 

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby mick243 » Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:19 am

Wakatuki wrote:Car stuck as woman accidentally drives along tracks..... http://goo.gl/bhkaTW
The elderly woman drove about 600m along the tracks from near the Queens Park Tennis Centre on Queen Street at about 8.15am.

The same sort of person who is obviously easily confused by road situations. The same sort of person I asked to be questioned by police for suitability to drive after a light connect. The same person who will accidently kill with 2 tonnes of metal but always be innocent. Sorry to rant but these blasé drivers really annoy me.


News story says "accidentally drove"

What a load of bovine excrement.... Driving is a deliberate act. Choosing where to drive is a deliberate act.

That moron was either negligent or reckless, there is no accident here.


Seriously, the situation on our roads will never improve whilst drivers can hide behind the term "accident"
mick243
 
Posts: 209
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:44 am

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby queequeg » Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:42 am

InTheWoods wrote:
zero wrote:I'm going to be interested in the interpretation of the event, because unfortunately rule 119 and 5 leg roundabouts are imo very problematic. IMO the rule really and unfortunately needs clarification to only cover exits that are substantially straight or right and the cyclist shouldn't have to look for and try to give way to people that are turning left from the wrong lane, or trying to simultaneously lane share and turn left, as a cyclist can only even likely make the decision to give way when the vehicle is not even in the roundabout yet.


:shock: For some reason I always thought that rule *did* only apply when the cyclist was turning right (from the left lane) at a multi-lane roundabout (ie turning from the wrong lane as allowed), I didn't realise it meant in any situation on any multi-line/lane roundabout. Lucky I just about never ride on two lane roundabouts...

So in this case, rule 119 required cowled to give way to the car leaving the roundabout? That's crazy.

Rule 119 is
119 Giving way by the rider of a bicycle or animal to a vehicle leaving a roundabout
The rider of a bicycle or animal who is riding in the far left
marked lane of a roundabout with 2 or more marked lanes, or
the far left line of traffic in a roundabout with room for 2 or
more lines of traffic, other than animals, bicycles, motorbikes
or motorised wheelchairs, must give way to any vehicle
leaving the roundabout.


I think you have to read Rule 119 in Context with Rule 111 (In NSW it is Rule 111).

The main points in Rule 111 that relate to this incident are:-

111
(3) If the driver is to leave the roundabout more than halfway around it, the driver must enter the roundabout from the right marked lane or, if the road is not a multi-lane road, from the left of, parallel to, and as near as practicable to, the dividing line or median strip.

(4) If the driver is to leave the roundabout halfway around it, the driver may enter the roundabout from any marked lane or, if the road is not a multi-lane road, anywhere on the part of the road on which vehicles travelling in the same direction as the driver may travel.

(5) Despite subrules (2) to (4), if the driver is entering the roundabout from a marked lane and there are traffic lane arrows applying to the lane, the driver must:
(a) if the arrows indicate a single direction—drive in that direction after entering the roundabout, or
(b) if the arrows indicate 2 or more directions—drive in one of those directions after entering the roundabout.

So, subrule 3 and 4 say what is required under normal circumstances, then Rule 5 says that if the roundabout has marked lanes with arrows, that all other rules no longer apply and you follow the road markings.


Now....the bicycles giving way bit....

Subrule 6 and 7 says:-
(6) Subrule (3) does not apply to the rider of a bicycle or animal.
Note. Bicycle is defined in the Dictionary.
(7) Subrule (5) does not apply to the rider of a bicycle or animal if the rider is to leave the roundabout more than halfway around it.

In essence, the implication is that Rule 119, which states that Bicycles must give way to vehicles leaving the roundabout can only apply if the rider of the bicycle has used the Subrule 6 or 7 concessions. If they haven't deviated from what is required of all other vehicles, then they don't have to give way to other vehicles. It is clear from the wording and the associated diagrams in the Road Rules that the intent is to allow bicycle riders to turn right from the left hand lane, which would require cyclists to cross over the adjacent right hand lane at each exit.
'11 Lynskey Cooper CX, '00 Hillbrick Steel Racing (Total Rebuild '10), '09 Electra Townie Original 21D
User avatar
queequeg
 
Posts: 2750
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:09 am

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby find_bruce » Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:25 pm

mick243 wrote:
Wakatuki wrote:Car stuck as woman accidentally drives along tracks..... http://goo.gl/bhkaTW
The elderly woman drove about 600m along the tracks from near the Queens Park Tennis Centre on Queen Street at about 8.15am.

The same sort of person who is obviously easily confused by road situations. The same sort of person I asked to be questioned by police for suitability to drive after a light connect. The same person who will accidently kill with 2 tonnes of metal but always be innocent. Sorry to rant but these blasé drivers really annoy me.


News story says "accidentally drove"

What a load of bovine excrement.... Driving is a deliberate act. Choosing where to drive is a deliberate act.

That moron was either negligent or reckless, there is no accident here.


Seriously, the situation on our roads will never improve whilst drivers can hide behind the term "accident"

I have a different view - to me it is a very sad situation where time has slowly eaten away at her faculties, where those close to her have either not noticed or not wanted to notice the slow changes.

Don't get me wrong, as I agree she is clearly no longer fit to drive and the only safe thing to do is to take away that part of her independence. Sadly it will only get worse for her from here.
Image
User avatar
find_bruce
 
Posts: 3538
Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 8:42 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby mick243 » Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:44 pm

Even so, that's still negligent and or reckless, not accidental

Part of the negligence may be on her family, or the system in General. BUT for whatever reason, she made the decision to drive, and she made the decision of where to drive.

It may be sad, but it would be sadder still if such decisions killed someone, like a particular nun in Sydney crushing a cyclist against a boat - that was no accident either.
mick243
 
Posts: 209
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:44 am

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby zero » Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:15 pm

queequeg wrote:
In essence, the implication is that Rule 119, which states that Bicycles must give way to vehicles leaving the roundabout can only apply if the rider of the bicycle has used the Subrule 6 or 7 concessions. If they haven't deviated from what is required of all other vehicles, then they don't have to give way to other vehicles. It is clear from the wording and the associated diagrams in the Road Rules that the intent is to allow bicycle riders to turn right from the left hand lane, which would require cyclists to cross over the adjacent right hand lane at each exit.


That relies on the cars entering from the right entrance not catching the rider before the rider clears the left entrance (entrances from the riders perspective). Rule 119 is so blanket that it still applies even if the rider is not making use of the concessions.
zero
 
Posts: 2617
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2010 1:54 pm

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Clownshoes » Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:43 pm

Me (to adjacent driver with Australian 'WERE FULL' sticker on their car): Nice sticker, what does it mean?
Bogan driver: Means f**k off we're full, mate!
Me: oh, I thought it meant WERE full, as in WAS full.
Bogan driver: hahaha nah mate
Me: an apostrophe makes all the difference, bro. I'll take an educated immigrant over an uneducated d-head any day of the week!

Light goes green.

Clownshoes = 1
Bogan = 0
User avatar
Clownshoes
 
Posts: 54
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:07 pm
Location: Perth, Straya

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby queequeg » Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:25 pm

zero wrote:
queequeg wrote:
In essence, the implication is that Rule 119, which states that Bicycles must give way to vehicles leaving the roundabout can only apply if the rider of the bicycle has used the Subrule 6 or 7 concessions. If they haven't deviated from what is required of all other vehicles, then they don't have to give way to other vehicles. It is clear from the wording and the associated diagrams in the Road Rules that the intent is to allow bicycle riders to turn right from the left hand lane, which would require cyclists to cross over the adjacent right hand lane at each exit.


That relies on the cars entering from the right entrance not catching the rider before the rider clears the left entrance (entrances from the riders perspective). Rule 119 is so blanket that it still applies even if the rider is not making use of the concessions.


I think the rule is incredibly poorly written. The diagrams of this rule in use is typically designed for when there is a dedicated bicycle lane running around the outside of the roundabout, and the idea of rule 119 is that before crossing each exit off the roundabout, bicycles in the lane must give way to any vehicle exiting.

In reality, for a bicycle to turn right from the left traffic lane is dangerous. You can't stop in the middle of the left lane in a multi lane roundabout and attempt to turn right across those in the right lane.
I am surprised this rule even got in there in the current form.

I do disagree about Rule 119 being in force at all times. If I am using a roundabout in line with Rule 111, and not turning right from the left lane, Rule 119 does not apply. Rule 119 should really be amended to make it clear when it applies.

Of course, there is also a separate rule for dealing with changing lanes in a multi-lane roundabout, so for car to exit a roundabout to the left, it would have to change lanes first and give way to vehicles already in the other lane.
'11 Lynskey Cooper CX, '00 Hillbrick Steel Racing (Total Rebuild '10), '09 Electra Townie Original 21D
User avatar
queequeg
 
Posts: 2750
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:09 am

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby geebee » Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:42 pm

Biffidus wrote:I wonder if one of these would help:

Image


Yow, I just found the price of the stick with a led $135.00 aud, I could build one for maybe $10 or more likely for free with the old bike crap around the house.
But I would not use it :oops:
geebee
 
Posts: 101
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 3:55 pm

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby il padrone » Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:34 pm

find_bruce wrote:
mick243 wrote:News story says "accidentally drove"

What a load of bovine excrement.... Driving is a deliberate act. Choosing where to drive is a deliberate act.

That moron was either negligent or reckless, there is no accident here.


Seriously, the situation on our roads will never improve whilst drivers can hide behind the term "accident"

I have a different view - to me it is a very sad situation where time has slowly eaten away at her faculties, where those close to her have either not noticed or not wanted to notice the slow changes.

Don't get me wrong, as I agree she is clearly no longer fit to drive and the only safe thing to do is to take away that part of her independence. Sadly it will only get worse for her from here.

I would not even treat the poor lady so harshly - she made a very silly, embarassing mistake when she was tricked out by the changed road markings in this new infrastructure on the Gold Coast. No-one was harmed here, no-one was placed at great risk (apart from herself).

Bejeebus people on here are awfully harsh on a silly situation :shock: :roll: . I cannot condemn this lady as a "moron", and do not think she has need of losing her licence. Obviously none of you guys have ever made a simple mistake on the roads..... never, ever! :P :P
Last edited by il padrone on Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 18141
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby geebee » Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:07 pm

“Our analysis is the signage and traffic signals are perfectly clear, they haven’t changed and what’s happened here is someone has disregarded those messages and travelled on to the tracks."
No changes to the road just another older driver that needs her licence cancelled as she is incapable of even stopping after making a major mistake. "drove along them for almost 600m until her tyres became wedged in the tracks"
geebee
 
Posts: 101
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 3:55 pm

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby biker jk » Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:48 pm

geebee wrote:“Our analysis is the signage and traffic signals are perfectly clear, they haven’t changed and what’s happened here is someone has disregarded those messages and travelled on to the tracks."
No changes to the road just another older driver that needs her licence cancelled as she is incapable of even stopping after making a major mistake. "drove along them for almost 600m until her tyres became wedged in the tracks"


Well said. It was no "simple mistake". Driving is a privilege not a right, for anyone.
User avatar
biker jk
 
Posts: 2490
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 5:18 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby jasonc » Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:49 pm

il padrone wrote:I cannot condemn this lady as a "moron", and do not think she has need of losing her licence. Obviously none of you guys have ever made a simple mistake on the roads..... never, ever! :P :P


I've made mistakes absolutely. But 600m on tram tracks where there is no road?
Image
jasonc
 
Posts: 5587
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:40 pm
Location: Brisbane

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Dragster1 » Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:54 pm

Wait until they have the trams operational in the gold coast, you going to see a whole lot more of this, they haven't had trams up here for decades
User avatar
Dragster1
 
Posts: 894
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:46 pm
Location: Eluding motorist in Brisbane

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby London Boy » Thu Mar 13, 2014 8:31 pm

zero wrote:I'm going to be interested in the interpretation of the event, because unfortunately rule 119 and 5 leg roundabouts are imo very problematic. IMO the rule really and unfortunately needs clarification to only cover exits that are substantially straight or right and the cyclist shouldn't have to look for and try to give way to people that are turning left from the wrong lane, or trying to simultaneously lane share and turn left, as a cyclist can only even likely make the decision to give way when the vehicle is not even in the roundabout yet.

Take the lane. Force the motorist into the next lane and then he has to give way to you since he wishes to enter the lane you are in. Obviously he cannot leave the roundabout from the right hand lane, so there can be no obligation to give way to him.
User avatar
London Boy
 
Posts: 596
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2010 2:43 pm

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Kraeg » Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:28 pm

So a granny drives along light rail tracks on her way to a hairdressing appointment, and this morning I watched a woman cruise through a red light then sit over the broken dividing white line of two lanes while she dealt with her hair style.

I think the answer is obvious: Mandatory Head Shaving for drivers.
Kraeg
 
Posts: 317
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 8:11 pm

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Kraeg » Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:34 pm

Clownshoes wrote:Me (to adjacent driver with Australian 'WERE FULL' sticker on their car): Nice sticker, what does it mean?
Bogan driver: Means f**k off we're full, mate!
Me: oh, I thought it meant WERE full, as in WAS full.
Bogan driver: hahaha nah mate
Me: an apostrophe makes all the difference, bro. I'll take an educated immigrant over an uneducated d-head any day of the week!

Light goes green.

Clownshoes = 1
Bogan = 0


Let's hope his missus is always up for an abortion:
1) Reduces the chances of his genes polluting the gene pool.
2) We're full.
Kraeg
 
Posts: 317
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 8:11 pm

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Wakatuki » Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:17 am

il padrone wrote: no-one was harmed here, no-one was placed at great risk (apart from herself).
Not this time.
il padrone wrote: people on here are awfully harsh on a silly situation :shock: :roll: . I cannot condemn this lady as a "moron", and do not think she has need of losing her licence. Obviously none of you guys have ever made a simple mistake on the roads..... never, ever! :P :P

I am sure we have all made mistakes but not for 600 metres or over half a kilometre for maximum journalistic impact! Then only stopping because our WOMD was stuck and could not continue... I don't want her to lose her licence, I would like her to be tested to see if she is competent enough to keep it though!
find_bruce wrote:I have a different view - to me it is a very sad situation where time has slowly eaten away at her faculties, where those close to her have either not noticed or not wanted to notice the slow changes.

Don't get me wrong, as I agree she is clearly no longer fit to drive and the only safe thing to do is to take away that part of her independence. Sadly it will only get worse for her from here.

Yes on the humanitarian scale I agree, things will only get worse for her. But I am glad to have viewed this incident from 6 feet up rather than 6 feet under. I am sure that we would all rather hear that a old lady lost her licence today or even better handed it in, due to loss of faculties, than read another cyclist injured or killed today after someone forgot their glasses or their destination, their faculties and possibly their responsibilities.

Just to clarify I am not ageist!
User avatar
Wakatuki
 
Posts: 764
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:15 pm
Location: Qld

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby iaintas » Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:59 pm

I think every MM and "insert expletive here" was on the road between Bekgrave and Kalista yesterday. I normally have no trouble in the dandenongs but yesterday this 7km stretch of road was hell!!!!!!
Image
iaintas
 
Posts: 296
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:37 pm

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Biffidus » Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:38 pm

London Boy wrote:Take the lane. Force the motorist into the next lane and then he has to give way to you since he wishes to enter the lane you are in. Obviously he cannot leave the roundabout from the right hand lane, so there can be no obligation to give way to him.

That's what cowled did... the motorist drove around him, straddling both lanes, and then exited the roundabout from the right hand lane, nearly taking him out in the process.
User avatar
Biffidus
 
Posts: 653
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 9:20 pm
Location: RADelaide

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby il padrone » Sat Mar 15, 2014 12:00 am

Wakatuki wrote:Yes on the humanitarian scale I agree, things will only get worse for her. But I am glad to have viewed this incident from 6 feet up rather than 6 feet under. I am sure that we would all rather hear that a old lady lost her licence today or even better handed it in, due to loss of faculties, than read another cyclist injured or killed today after someone forgot their glasses or their destination, their faculties and possibly their responsibilities.

I wonder how many over 70 year olds have been involved in running down cyclists or killing other people on the roads? And how this compares to the number of 18-40 year olds who kill and maim ???

I do not now but I'd guess that the 70+/18-40 incident ratio would be about 1/30 or less. People over-rate silly mistakes (sure, sometimes innocents get killed) and severely under-rate real risks - like driving 10-25kmh over the limit, or driving when tanked and/or tired :|
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 18141
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Ross » Sat Mar 15, 2014 4:47 am

SA driver over seven times alcohol limit

http://www.news.com.au/national/breakin ... public_rss
Image
User avatar
Ross
 
Posts: 3668
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2009 7:53 pm

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby duncanm » Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:23 am

il padrone wrote:
Wakatuki wrote:Yes on the humanitarian scale I agree, things will only get worse for her. But I am glad to have viewed this incident from 6 feet up rather than 6 feet under. I am sure that we would all rather hear that a old lady lost her licence today or even better handed it in, due to loss of faculties, than read another cyclist injured or killed today after someone forgot their glasses or their destination, their faculties and possibly their responsibilities.

I wonder how many over 70 year olds have been involved in running down cyclists or killing other people on the roads? And how this compares to the number of 18-40 year olds who kill and maim ???

I do not now but I'd guess that the 70+/18-40 incident ratio would be about 1/30 or less. People over-rate silly mistakes (sure, sometimes innocents get killed) and severely under-rate real risks - like driving 10-25kmh over the limit, or driving when tanked and/or tired :|


possibly the 'kill-rate' is low, but there are clearly a proportion who need their licenses revoked:

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/quee ... 6823732148

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/na ... 817985319#

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/elder ... 2rg7f.html

etc...

EDITED: I just looked up the NSW road stats. Ratios for young and old are 17-25 account for ~25% of all road fatalities, 80+ account for 7%, so the ratio is more like 1:3
duncanm
 
Posts: 190
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2010 9:42 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby jasonc » Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:42 am

duncanm wrote:EDITED: I just looked up the NSW road stats. Ratios for young and old are 17-25 account for ~25% of all road fatalities, 80+ account for 7%, so the ratio is more like 1:3


are you suggesting that if we get all 80+ year olds off the roads, there will be ~7% fatalaties?

7% of around 1200 is 84 people. that's a lot. I'd support that
Image
jasonc
 
Posts: 5587
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:40 pm
Location: Brisbane

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby duncanm » Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:46 am

jasonc wrote:
duncanm wrote:EDITED: I just looked up the NSW road stats. Ratios for young and old are 17-25 account for ~25% of all road fatalities, 80+ account for 7%, so the ratio is more like 1:3


are you suggesting that if we get all 80+ year olds off the roads, there will be ~7% fatalaties?

7% of around 1200 is 84 people. that's a lot. I'd support that


yes.. they appear to be a higher risk than the general population. I don't support getting them all off the roads.

The same can be said of young male drivers.

More stats here: http://roadsafety.transport.nsw.gov.au/ ... s_dl4.html ..

70+ seem to be involved in ~2x the rate of deaths than the 30-39 age group is (per head of pop.). Similar for 20-25's.
Last edited by duncanm on Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
duncanm
 
Posts: 190
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2010 9:42 pm
Location: Sydney

PreviousNext

Return to General discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: sdnelson19



Popular Bike Shops
Torpedo 7 Torpedo7 AU
Ground Effect Ground Effect NZ
Chain Reaction Cycles CRC UK
Wiggle Wiggle UK
Ebay Ebay AU



InTouch with BNA
“Bicycles BNA Twitter
“Bicycles BNA Facebook
“Google+ BNA Google+
“Bicycles BNA Newsletter