Moron Motorists #3

open topic, for anything cycling related.

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby il padrone » Sun Mar 23, 2014 8:22 am

Touring in Italian towns we routinely rode the wrong way along one-way streets. Italians accept this as the normal thing for cyclsts - "The one-way street is no because of the bicicletto"

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by BNA » Sun Mar 23, 2014 8:43 am

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby TTar » Sun Mar 23, 2014 8:43 am

Pipped for six thousandth post on this thread by IP. I'll get you next time. :evil:

These calls for strict obedience to all regulations at all times under any circumstances overlook one glaringly obvious factor; roads, infrastructure, regulations are all designed for cars. Simply overlaying rules on bicycles is nonsensical. I'm sure it's been said before, maybe even on this thread a couple of thousand posts ago.

Police often use their discretion in enforcement and cyclists (mostly) are bright enough to realise riding responsibly doesn't always mean mindless adherence to every single rule.

Admittedly though, there are some circumstances where breaking the rules is probably not the best idea, but is irresistible; try stopping at every single light on the exhilarating Bondi Rd descent to the beach. Any cyclist who can should probably be playing bingo instead of riding a bike.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby outnabike » Sun Mar 23, 2014 9:07 am

il padrone wrote:
Lukeyboy wrote:Run a red light then expect to cop the same fine as everybody else.

So, elighten me...... are they going to apply the same fines to pedestrians running red lights? And are they going to be seriously enforcing that in the CBD?

Because by gosh that'll help bolster the state's revenues - help pay for their East-West Tunnel boondoggle :o :P


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Good one IP, I can count 18 peds to be booked here. The cyclist would create mayhem if he blasted them with an airzound. :)












But I doubt that'll be the case. Too much voter backlash.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Blackrock » Sun Mar 23, 2014 9:48 am

On suggestion of others in the Commuting thread, here's a close call with a smaller truck and trailer. Prospect highway, Sydney. That stretch is an advertisement for life insurance if there ever was one!!

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby il padrone » Sun Mar 23, 2014 9:54 am

A place to stick the arm out and ride further right, if ever there was one. Claim the lane for your safety - it's only a 100m stretch. Cars and trucks can sit behind till safe to pass.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby CXCommuter » Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:55 am

il padrone wrote:A place to stick the arm out and ride further right, if ever there was one. Claim the lane for your safety - it's only a 100m stretch. Cars and trucks can sit behind till safe to pass.


Ha- Prospect Highway and claiming the lane- they will just run you over and back up for another go- Not quite Bogan Central but pretty close (spent 6 months working on the former CSIRO research property remediating it, nearby on Clunies Ross Drive a few years back).
Seriously though whichever way that is a very dangerous stretch of road- other options? Seven Hills Road etc?
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby InTheWoods » Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:46 pm

No big deal this one but pretty inattentive, I think everybody makes this mistake once - normally while on L's or P's though.



Note: Video from my car but I'm not driving it.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby g-boaf » Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:59 pm

il padrone wrote:A place to stick the arm out and ride further right, if ever there was one. Claim the lane for your safety - it's only a 100m stretch. Cars and trucks can sit behind till safe to pass.


We'll send you on a bike and go there and do it for us, and report back on how it goes (if you are still alive). That's seriously dangerous territory there.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby zero » Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:29 pm

Blackrock wrote:On suggestion of others in the Commuting thread, here's a close call with a smaller truck and trailer. Prospect highway, Sydney. That stretch is an advertisement for life insurance if there ever was one!!



That truck driver wouldn't have run you over if you used the gap to merge over properly. Believe it or not if you simply offer them the fait accompli that they can't possibly fit, then they don't try.

If there isn't a sufficient gap for you to get off the shoulder and onto the road proper you should stop until there is a suitable gap instead of riding onto a totally unsuitable shoulder. Not only is that sensible its basically a legal requirement. The exact same principle applies to all sorts of scenarios where riders fail to either merge safely or give way.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby London Boy » Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:52 pm

il padrone wrote:
Lukeyboy wrote:Run a red light then expect to cop the same fine as everybody else.

So, elighten me...... are they going to apply the same fines to pedestrians running red lights? And are they going to be seriously enforcing that in the CBD?
[...]
But I doubt that'll be the case. Too much voter backlash.

They do in Brisbane.

Just not very often.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby il padrone » Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:51 pm

zero wrote:That truck driver wouldn't have run you over if you used the gap to merge over properly. Believe it or not if you simply offer them the fait accompli that they can't possibly fit, then they don't try.

Exactly what I was suggesting. So many cyclists make it very hard (and dangerous) for themselves by hanging left and making it LOOK like there might be room for a driver to squeeze past...... when there really is not.

(US diagram)
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zero wrote:If there isn't a sufficient gap for you to get off the shoulder and onto the road proper you should stop until there is a suitable gap instead of riding onto a totally unsuitable shoulder. Not only is that sensible its basically a legal requirement. The exact same principle applies to all sorts of scenarios where riders fail to either merge safely or give way.

+1000
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby herzog » Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:26 pm

zero wrote:
Blackrock wrote:On suggestion of others in the Commuting thread, here's a close call with a smaller truck and trailer. Prospect highway, Sydney. That stretch is an advertisement for life insurance if there ever was one!!



That truck driver wouldn't have run you over if you used the gap to merge over properly.


He would have if he was texting.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby dungee » Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:31 pm

il padrone wrote:
dungee wrote:The problem is that if you blow through the same red light on your bicycle someone may have to clean up your remains off the street and a lot of lives are affected in the same way as if the car was in the wrong.

You are significantly misrepresenting the nature of what red-light jumping cyclists do :| This difference is a big part of the reason the risk/harm is infinitismally less than that of a motorist red-light runner.


I really don't think so, sure most look and roll through but plenty just run them. It's a personal choice, if I were to run one I wouldn't bitch about the fine. It's a choice we make.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby InTheWoods » Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:51 pm

You guys are using different terms which are for different things by the way. Red light jumping is not the Sam thing as red light running. Both illegal but quite different.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby il padrone » Sun Mar 23, 2014 6:02 pm

dungee wrote:I really don't think so, sure most look and roll through but plenty just run them. It's a personal choice, if I were to run one I wouldn't bitch about the fine. It's a choice we make.

Sorry, but there you go again, misrepresenting what happens, even while acknowledging what I said was correct :roll:

Very few cclists will run through red lights on the fly, after the lights have been red for a couple of seconds. This is SOP for many motorists.

Motorists running the red are either 'squeezing the red', which increasingly is earning them camera fines these days, or they run the red on the fly, several seconds after it has gone, because of inattention..... these are what causes the serious collisions.

Some cyclists will try to 'squeeze the red', but generally it is far too risky with a low-speed vehicle. Many cyclists will roll up to intersections with no traffic crossing, pause, look both ways, then roll through. Illegal, socially unaccepted, but generally not much more dangerous than walking across a busy road mid-block (which is quite legal, generally safe, and not jay-walking as some would have us believe).

BTW, I do not run through red lights, except very rarely on late night rides where a sensor has not registered me and the lights have gone through a full cycle with no green my way. Victoria Police have advised that in this circumstance the best thing to do is to proceed through the red, when safe.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Mulger bill » Sun Mar 23, 2014 6:15 pm

Very rare for me to do anything but sit and wait, prolly because of professional training but if I'm not picked up by the loops (even rarer) I'll make the call at the time. Don't ask me to explain my reasoning at these times because no two situations are ever the same. EVER.
Naturally enough, if pinged I will cough up. You win it you wear it.

Pete, you have a source for this VicPol advice?

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby human909 » Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:10 pm

Today I got questioned by a young lass I was riding with why I kept stopping for the lights. :lol: I couldn't really give a fair and straight answer!! (These light were at T intersections and at empty pedestrian crossings.)

In general I stop at lights when around heavy traffic, just because I can't be bother creating more angst from other who are observing. When nobody is around the there is no way I'm stopping at lights.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby il padrone » Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:13 pm

Not handy, Shaun. It was a statement made by a fairly senior police officer in a media report a couple of years back.

Bruce has an interesting perspective. Only 6.9% is a surprisingly small percentage - I'd rate it no worse than the proportion of driver red-light runners.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby zero » Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:28 pm

herzog wrote:
zero wrote:
Blackrock wrote:On suggestion of others in the Commuting thread, here's a close call with a smaller truck and trailer. Prospect highway, Sydney. That stretch is an advertisement for life insurance if there ever was one!!



That truck driver wouldn't have run you over if you used the gap to merge over properly.


He would have if he was texting.


That trailer with a texting driver would have hit the rider anyway. No directional integrity on approach either, and even worse, a driver that inattentive would make the decision to pass the cyclist based on a couple of glances, if you are plainly claiming your road space, its more likely they'll treat it as something to pay attention to.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby FatGuts » Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:48 pm

human909 wrote:
FatGuts wrote:All very valid points and I have heard them all before but we cant have it both ways. We cant criticize anyone else for breaking the rules if we are not going to obey them as well.


That is absolutely wrong head thinking that is all too common.

To equate all law infractions as the same is absurd. Me not having a bell on my bike does (against the law) does not mean I remove my right to object to somebody endangering my life.

I would happy trade significantly more law disobedience on our roads in exchange for significantly more politeness and respect for others safety on the roads.

In life the more you strictly you enforce rules and regulations the more those rules and regulation will be seen as the sole guidance of behaviour. I believe our driving culture has suffered because of the strictness that we approach our rules. The "wipe of 5" campaign I see as the worst offender. We have been drilled into us that speed limits are pretty much all that matters in safe driving.



Um, I did not equate all law infractions as the same (even though the law actually sets what is wrong and what isn't despite of internet interpretations, yes the enforcers can use discretion) but are you advocating a do as I say not as I do policy?

The thing is what I see here and want for myself is that all (well a larger percentage than I see ATM) of road users obey the main basic road rules, give way, don't run red lights, don't tailgate ect........

BUT we cannot say to car drivers "Give us a metre, don't pull out, don't cut us off ect, ect...." if we ourselves are going to use the road rules liberally (look at the current debate about red lights......).

I am also not advocating that all laws be policed strictly either. My comments are in reaction to the "Oh car drivers are bad and they must do the right thing all the time" & then the "Oh I will run a red light when I think its OK" mentality which I think is hypocritical.

One of the big things I get from the car drivers perspective is "Oh they do what they want, they are so arrogant....".......some of the arguments of running red lights are confirming this point of view as far I can see.

Its certainly not helping me on my on-road riding that's for sure.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby human909 » Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:53 pm

I only saw this video now! :shock:

Blackrock wrote:



I'm sorry Blackrock that is poor riding. Had I been driving behind you I would have been shaking my head at you and cringing at your riding.

-I REALLY hope you did do a head check before crossing the slip lane, too many times I've seen cyclists crossing slip lanes without so much as a head check. This is despite the fact that YOU are required to give way if you are riding in the shoulder.
-Presuming you did do a head check you would have known there was a truck behind you. So why did choose to stay riding outside the road markings?

By choosing to ride outside of the delineated road you are not only losing many of your legal rights but you are communicating to the road users around you that you wish to ride NEXT to the road rather than on the road. Make you intentions and position clear! You weren't even riding on the road you were riding on the shoulder for 99% of that video! :idea:

(Of course truck driver still shouldn't have passed you the way he did. But you were sending the please pass me message loud and clear!)
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby AUbicycles » Sun Mar 23, 2014 8:01 pm

I know the dilemena very well. Either keep far left so as not to hold up traffic but putting you at risk from dangerous overtaking.
Or
Take a lane and potentially increase safety but totally frustrate drivers behind who may also pressure you by driving too close.

There is no easy answer and in busy traffic it is a bold step to take control and take the lane.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby human909 » Sun Mar 23, 2014 8:05 pm

FatGuts wrote:BUT we cannot say to car drivers "Give us a metre, don't pull out, don't cut us off ect, ect...." if we ourselves are going to use the road rules liberally (look at the current debate about red lights......).

Yes we can. If you can't see the difference between behaviour that can kill and behaviour that is harmless then I question your judgment. Continuing to equate harmless law breaking with downright deadly law breaking is a big problem.

FatGuts wrote:My comments are in reaction to the "Oh car drivers are bad and they must do the right thing all the time" & then the "Oh I will run a red light when I think its OK" mentality which I think is hypocritical.

I'm not sure that ANYBODY has expressed that mentality. Personally I don't car if drivers break the law in harmless situations. I have no problems if a motorist runs a red light after safely checking for all traffic in all directions. But honestly I have NEVER see another motorist do that.

FatGuts wrote:One of the big things I get from the car drivers perspective is "Oh they do what they want, they are so arrogant....".......some of the arguments of running red lights are confirming this point of view as far I can see.

If you think ignoring red light stems from arrogance then you are as badly mistaken as those motorists.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby human909 » Sun Mar 23, 2014 8:11 pm

AUbicycles wrote:I know the dilemena very well. Either keep far left so as not to hold up traffic but putting you at risk from dangerous overtaking.
Or
Take a lane and potentially increase safety but totally frustrate drivers behind who may also pressure you by driving too close.

There is no easy answer and in busy traffic it is a bold step to take control and take the lane.


I agree that it isn't easy and you do need confidence. But as far as I am concerned, in that situation there is no choice keep far left. The risk to your life is simply too great. The answer is easy, either take the lane or don't ride it at all.


In such a circumstance I would merge into the traffic lane well before that sliplane. If there is no clear gap in traffic to merge into then I would stop and wait until I could safely ride over the bridge. It is simply not worth it to insist on riding in a space that cannot practically fit a car and bike unless you are taking the lane.
Last edited by human909 on Sun Mar 23, 2014 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby il padrone » Sun Mar 23, 2014 8:18 pm

AUbicycles wrote:There is no easy answer and in busy traffic it is a bold step to take control and take the lane.

A bold step which really does work, if you move wide in the lane with enough of a gap/time to allow the driver to take action (slow down, or change lanes).
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