Moron Motorists #3

open topic, for anything cycling related.

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby kenwstr » Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:16 pm

il padrone wrote:
bychosis wrote:a more considerate/polite community where everyone goes about their business and if there is someone going to affect their business a compromise is made on both sides to ensure that neither is affected much.

Yes, I'd agree with this.


But I cannot see how one road user (cyclist or otherwise) going through a red light next to me, directly interferes with my business. I just stay put, humm a little tune and get on with my ride when the light goes green. I do the same in the car, and while I acknowledge the danger the other's action presents, I do not believe their action leads to ME being somehow held responsible :?

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I'm no psycologist but in my 50+ years I have observed a few things about human behavior and com to some conclusions.

People do not generally react logically. Motorists who are stressed and frustrated on seeing someone doing the wrong thing, associated the incident with their frustrations. It is important to understand that peoples brains work by pattern matching, not logic. This is an invaluable device that allows people to quickly order their world view through discrimination. Discrimination can be a good thing as it allows people to quickly recognise and avoid adverse situations. However it also allows them to transfer emotions like frustrations via tenuous and incorrect links to individuals or groups. This is the basis of many forms or discrimination and hatred we are all familiar with. No group is immune to this, it only requires a easy recognition and currently cyclists are in the frame. Some of this discrimination is unavoidable as obviously we are generally slower, increasing the frustrations. However we bring some of it on ourselves and each other by our behavior. So all I am really saying is that we have the power to attenuate this to some degree but it does require cleaning up our act. I happened to pick on the running red light thing as an example as it seems endemic. We like to criticise motorist attitudes here as being a law unto themselves but really we do the same thing as if we have some right to make a call on disobeying road rules when they doesn't suit us. Sure I'm a cyclist too, I understand how important it is to maintain momentum and how it seems a silly requirement to stop when there is no traffic or peds but the law doesn't recognise such arguments nor does it confer any right to individuals to make such a call. A red light means stop for everyone, no exception. It's not a moral point, it's a legal one and a practical one in terms of doing something towards improving the current situation. If you don't stop you will almost certainly be observed even if you don't know it and that just reinforces the association of frustrations on all cyclists as a group (discrimination). Your behavior on the road affects as all.

Regards,
Ken
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by BNA » Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:33 pm

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby il padrone » Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:33 pm

kenwstr wrote:If you don't stop you will almost certainly be observed even if you don't know it and that just reinforces the association of frustrations on all cyclists as a group (discrimination). Your behavior on the road affects as all.

You must have missed my key points:

1) I stop and wait for the green;

2) I do not see any way that 'Jimmy' riding past me and not stopping in any way "interferes with my business" to paraphrase bychosis, who I was replying to. Direct interference that is. Perceptions of others are an rather diaphonous and somewhat spurious connection, one that I do not accept.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Grejoh » Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:57 pm

I must admit that despite living in Ipswich, QLD, and commuting to and from work most week days on my bike, I have yet to encounter any of the MM's that I read about on here. As Il Padrone has said, I ride predictably. Actually I prefer to think of it as I DRIVE my bike, not RIDE my bike. I behave on my bike exactly as I would if I was driving my car. Obviously there is a speed difference, but everything I do on my bike, I would do in my car, and to me that makes me predictable to other road users. About the only thing I do on my bike that I would not do in my car, as least here in QLD, is at the Traffic Lighted intersection that I go through where I need to do a RH turn, I prefer to do a Hook RH turn. Keeps me out of everyones way, and for ME, I feel safer doing so.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby cowled » Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:15 pm

kenwstr wrote:I'm no psycologist but in my 50+ years I have observed a few things about human behavior and com to some conclusions.

-snip-


Some interesting observations Ken. It seems to me, however, that you are not taking into account the fact that humans are a reasonably intelligent species capable of differentiating between the actions of individuals within a group.
I will not be held accountable for the actions of some random idiot on two wheels who chooses to blow through every red light. I do not associate myself with people like that.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby human909 » Sun Apr 27, 2014 3:10 am

kenwstr wrote:I happened to pick on the running red light thing as an example as it seems endemic.

No more endemic than for pedestrians.

kenwstr wrote:We like to criticise motorist attitudes here as being a law unto themselves but really we do the same thing as if we have some right to make a call on disobeying road rules when they doesn't suit us.

No "WE" don't do the same thing.
-I run red lights in empty intersections,
-I criticise motorists.
-I don't criticise motorists for running red lights in empty intersections.
The distinction is clear. Endangering a persons life should never be related to harmless rule infractions. Doing so misses the point of the rules.

kenwstr wrote:A red light means stop for everyone, no exception. It's not a moral point, it's a legal one and a practical one in terms of doing something towards improving the current situation.

I disagree totally. The safety problems that Australian cyclists have on the road have little to do with this topic. It is a total red herring.

kenwstr wrote:If you don't stop you will almost certainly be observed even if you don't know it and that just reinforces the association of frustrations on all cyclists as a group (discrimination). Your behavior on the road affects as all.

My road behaviour is centered around keeping myself and other road users around me safe. This is a far better approach to road safety than simply following rules.

Our roads would be safer if others did the same.

cowled wrote:I will not be held accountable for the actions of some random idiot on two wheels who chooses to blow through every red light. I do not associate myself with people like that.

I'm not sure such random idiots exist that choose to blow through every light. :wink: However there are plenty of clever people and idiots who occasionally choose to ignore the directions of a coloured light. I trust that you don't condemn those people enthusiastically, and would be willing to associate with the many good people who might be included in that group. :D


***
I stop for red lights far more often than not. However I don't stop for every single light and I'm happy to play devils advocate and defend that behavior. I doubt there are many here who have not "jay" walked before.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby kenwstr » Sun Apr 27, 2014 8:47 am

cowled wrote:
kenwstr wrote:I'm no psycologist but in my 50+ years I have observed a few things about human behavior and com to some conclusions.

-snip-


Some interesting observations Ken. It seems to me, however, that you are not taking into account the fact that humans are a reasonably intelligent species capable of differentiating between the actions of individuals within a group.
I will not be held accountable for the actions of some random idiot on two wheels who chooses to blow through every red light. I do not associate myself with people like that.

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Whether you personally reject being held accountable for the actions of some random idiot or not is beside the point. In the minds of many, you are just another faceless pest on 2 wheels because many people don't bother differentiating between the actions of individuals within a group as is evidenced by the many forms of discrimination endemic across humanity. It shouldn't be that way but it is and it seems to me that people who are discriminated against often react in ways that reinforce the discrimination. It's just part of the tragic human condition but it needs to be resisted because the alternative is a downward spiral that knows no bounds.

Regards,
Ken
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby kenwstr » Sun Apr 27, 2014 8:52 am

il padrone wrote:
kenwstr wrote:If you don't stop you will almost certainly be observed even if you don't know it and that just reinforces the association of frustrations on all cyclists as a group (discrimination). Your behavior on the road affects as all.

You must have missed my key points:

1) I stop and wait for the green;

2) I do not see any way that 'Jimmy' riding past me and not stopping in any way "interferes with my business" to paraphrase bychosis, who I was replying to. Direct interference that is. Perceptions of others are an rather diaphonous and somewhat spurious connection, one that I do not accept.


I was replying to this comment "But I cannot see how one road user (cyclist or otherwise) going through a red light next to me, directly interferes with my business." by explaining the mechanism of discrimination. I also made some comments that relate to other posts which i guess is a bit lazy and confusing on my part.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby myforwik » Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:11 am

Grejoh wrote:I must admit that despite living in Ipswich, QLD, and commuting to and from work most week days on my bike, I have yet to encounter any of the MM's that I read about on here. As Il Padrone has said, I ride predictably. Actually I prefer to think of it as I DRIVE my bike, not RIDE my bike. I behave on my bike exactly as I would if I was driving my car. Obviously there is a speed difference, but everything I do on my bike, I would do in my car, and to me that makes me predictable to other road users. About the only thing I do on my bike that I would not do in my car, as least here in QLD, is at the Traffic Lighted intersection that I go through where I need to do a RH turn, I prefer to do a Hook RH turn. Keeps me out of everyones way, and for ME, I feel safer doing so.


I seem to generate so much road rage when doing a hook turn in QLD.

I do a hook turn on several right had turns across 4 lane roads, the side where I stop does not have enough room go beside cars, so I park in front of them and they have to wait behind me as I go on green. Every time I do it the people whom I have stopped in front of beep me or make a point of passing me extremely closely, as they obviously think I am cheating or breaking the law or something.

The only problems I have ever had are close passes and being beeping because they are upset. A few people misjudge my speed.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby cowled » Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:18 am

human909 wrote:
cowled wrote:I will not be held accountable for the actions of some random idiot on two wheels who chooses to blow through every red light. I do not associate myself with people like that.

I'm not sure such random idiots exist that choose to blow through every light. :wink: However there are plenty of clever people and idiots who occasionally choose to ignore the directions of a coloured light. I trust that you don't condemn those people enthusiastically, and would be willing to associate with the many good people who might be included in that group. :D


***
I stop for red lights far more often than not. However I don't stop for every single light and I'm happy to play devils advocate and defend that behavior. I doubt there are many here who have not "jay" walked before.


H909, having re-read my own post, I realise that it came out the wrong way. I'm not a perfect person and I have certainly broken the road rules on occasion (both in my car and on my bike and as a pedestrian). And I have friends and associates who have, no doubt, broken a few road rules.

What I was trying to say is that I object to the idea that some motorists will see me in my lycra on a bike and lump me in with the twits who make a habit of regularly breaking the road rules.

Btw, you make a very good point about the jaywalking. I am pretty sure that the majority of folk have jaywalked. It is highly probable that nobody is entirely faultless when it comes to the road rules. So, it seems strange that anyone should be getting upset with the rule breakers, particularly if the rule breaking is not causing a danger to anybody.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby myforwik » Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:21 am

kenwstr wrote:
il padrone wrote:
kenwstr wrote:If you don't stop you will almost certainly be observed even if you don't know it and that just reinforces the association of frustrations on all cyclists as a group (discrimination). Your behavior on the road affects as all.

You must have missed my key points:

1) I stop and wait for the green;

2) I do not see any way that 'Jimmy' riding past me and not stopping in any way "interferes with my business" to paraphrase bychosis, who I was replying to. Direct interference that is. Perceptions of others are an rather diaphonous and somewhat spurious connection, one that I do not accept.


I was replying to this comment "But I cannot see how one road user (cyclist or otherwise) going through a red light next to me, directly interferes with my business." by explaining the mechanism of discrimination. I also made some comments that relate to other posts which i guess is a bit lazy and confusing on my part.

Ken


I don't even think its descrimination. Consider the difference mentally for motorists in left lane doing 20km/hr when the right lane is stopped, compared to motorist doing 20km/hr in left lane when right lane is doing 50km/hr. In both cases the motorist is progressing the same, but mentally the motorist feels much happier when doing 20km/hr passed other stopped cars. Humans while social animals, are also typically selfish, and will most people will chose to do 20km/hr and have everyone else stuck, rather than 20km/hr while everyone else gets to go 50km/hr.

Also its interesting that motorists do not get upset at all when they stop at red lights for 2+ minutes. But if they stop at an uncontrolled intersection where they don't have right of way, they will become frustrated after typically just 10 to 15 seconds and start to feel even more pressure to go if another motorist comes up behind them.

Also very few people get majorly upset when they are stuck behind a tractor doing 15km/hr. But they will get massively upset behind a cyclist doing 15km/hr, and not at all upset when stuck behind congested traffic at 15km/hr. It has been shown that the level of upset is directly related to the size of the vehicle - because a small vehicle the more open road the motorist can see up-head and the more their brain things they are 'missing out'.

Humans have a mental perception to always strive for more and never consider the absolute logic of a situation. This is why 99.9% of drivers will drive right at the speed limit - regardless of conditions.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Lukeyboy » Sun Apr 27, 2014 11:00 am

I get pissed off just riding behind other cyclists in the bike lane. Bloody road hogs! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :twisted: :twisted: :P
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby cp123 » Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:08 pm

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby warthog1 » Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:02 pm

Huge penalty for stupid risk taking :(.
Glad she didn't take someone else out too.


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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby outnabike » Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:00 pm

myforwik wrote:I seem to generate so much road rage when doing a hook turn in QLD.

I do a hook turn on several right had turns across 4 lane roads, the side where I stop does not have enough room go beside cars, so I park in front of them and they have to wait behind me as I go on green. Every time I do it the people whom I have stopped in front of beep me or make a point of passing me extremely closely, as they obviously think I am cheating or breaking the law or something.

The only problems I have ever had are close passes and being beeping because they are upset. A few people misjudge my speed.
snipped

Me too, myforwik,
A motorist sees nothing wrong in overtaking me eight metres from the lights and then beeps when I take my spot in front of him. Some cyclists may agree with that motorist. Yet when I do a hook turn it has the same effect and it is Ok. I am at the point of not caring what the motorist thinks of me, they just hate bike riders.

If I stay in the right lane and do a turn with the lights I give a bit of room for them but they want to turn into the left lane even with two lanes.

So if you take the right lane to do a turn you upset them or if you do a hook turn you upset them. :)
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby queequeg » Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:49 pm

myforwik wrote:
I seem to generate so much road rage when doing a hook turn in QLD.

I do a hook turn on several right had turns across 4 lane roads, the side where I stop does not have enough room go beside cars, so I park in front of them and they have to wait behind me as I go on green. Every time I do it the people whom I have stopped in front of beep me or make a point of passing me extremely closely, as they obviously think I am cheating or breaking the law or something.

The only problems I have ever had are close passes and being beeping because they are upset. A few people misjudge my speed.


Probably because most motorists outside of Vic have no idea what a Hook Turn is, or that bicycle riders always have the option of a hook turn unless there is a sign saying "No Hook Turns"

In NSW at least, this is rule 35:

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/ ... 4/s35.html
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby ldrcycles » Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:02 pm

queequeg wrote:
myforwik wrote:
I seem to generate so much road rage when doing a hook turn in QLD.

I do a hook turn on several right had turns across 4 lane roads, the side where I stop does not have enough room go beside cars, so I park in front of them and they have to wait behind me as I go on green. Every time I do it the people whom I have stopped in front of beep me or make a point of passing me extremely closely, as they obviously think I am cheating or breaking the law or something.

The only problems I have ever had are close passes and being beeping because they are upset. A few people misjudge my speed.


Probably because most motorists outside of Vic have no idea what a Hook Turn is, or that bicycle riders always have the option of a hook turn unless there is a sign saying "No Hook Turns"

In NSW at least, this is rule 35:

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/ ... 4/s35.html


+1, the concept was so utterly alien to my wife and i that when we went on a holiday to Victoria a few years ago we stood at an intersection for nearly an hour watching people doing hook turns and laughing. Ahh i did find myself a cracker of a woman :) .
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby London Boy » Sun Apr 27, 2014 7:01 pm

kenwstr wrote:
cowled wrote:I will not be held accountable for the actions of some random idiot on two wheels who chooses to blow through every red light. I do not associate myself with people like that.


Whether you personally reject being held accountable for the actions of some random idiot or not is beside the point. In the minds of many, you are just another faceless pest on 2 wheels because many people don't bother differentiating between the actions of individuals within a group as is evidenced by the many forms of discrimination endemic across humanity.

I'm sure not all Nigerians are crooked, but there have been enough scams of various kinds emanating from there that we start to draw obvious, if sometimes erroneous, conclusions.

Whether I am riding or driving, if I see a cyclist go through a red light I will tend to yell at him (or her) that he (or she) is giving us a bad name...
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby human909 » Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:19 am

London Boy wrote:Whether I am riding or driving, if I see a cyclist go through a red light I will tend to yell at him (or her) that he (or she) is giving us a bad name...


And in turn you make the roads a less pleasant place as an angry cyclist/driver yelling at others.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby London Boy » Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:37 am

human909 wrote:
London Boy wrote:Whether I am riding or driving, if I see a cyclist go through a red light I will tend to yell at him (or her) that he (or she) is giving us a bad name...


And in turn you make the roads a less pleasant place as an angry cyclist/driver yelling at others.

Actually, they are mostly apologetic. They know they shouldn't do it. We all do, except for those who, one day, might well misjudge their own willful breach.

You can't on one hand object to certain motorists treating cyclists as second class, while one the other you give them [more] reason to do it. Obey the rules and they will have less excuse for their behaviour. And yes, they do class us as all the same. We are not individuals, we are a category, a tribe.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby dungee » Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:45 am

myforwik wrote:
Grejoh wrote:I must admit that despite living in Ipswich, QLD, and commuting to and from work most week days on my bike, I have yet to encounter any of the MM's that I read about on here. As Il Padrone has said, I ride predictably. Actually I prefer to think of it as I DRIVE my bike, not RIDE my bike. I behave on my bike exactly as I would if I was driving my car. Obviously there is a speed difference, but everything I do on my bike, I would do in my car, and to me that makes me predictable to other road users. About the only thing I do on my bike that I would not do in my car, as least here in QLD, is at the Traffic Lighted intersection that I go through where I need to do a RH turn, I prefer to do a Hook RH turn. Keeps me out of everyones way, and for ME, I feel safer doing so.


I seem to generate so much road rage when doing a hook turn in QLD.

I do a hook turn on several right had turns across 4 lane roads, the side where I stop does not have enough room go beside cars, so I park in front of them and they have to wait behind me as I go on green. Every time I do it the people whom I have stopped in front of beep me or make a point of passing me extremely closely, as they obviously think I am cheating or breaking the law or something.

The only problems I have ever had are close passes and being beeping because they are upset. A few people misjudge my speed.


This is the reason I refuse to do a hook turn, last thing I need is a freshly antagonised driver going off behind me.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby outnabike » Mon Apr 28, 2014 7:06 am

London Boy wrote: Whether I am riding or driving, if I see a cyclist go through a red light I will tend to yell at him (or her) that he (or she) is giving us a bad name...

Snipped

London Boy, That is being the problem not solving it.... All, it does is say "I may be a great cyclist , but not a great person."
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby ldrcycles » Mon Apr 28, 2014 7:17 am

So if you see someone breaking the law you are supposed to just sit there and do nothing? To remain silent is to consent.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby CXCommuter » Mon Apr 28, 2014 7:42 am

cowled wrote:
kenwstr wrote:I'm no psycologist but in my 50+ years I have observed a few things about human behavior and com to some conclusions.

-snip-


Some interesting observations Ken. It seems to me, however, that you are not taking into account the fact that humans are a reasonably intelligent species capable of differentiating between the actions of individuals within a group.
I will not be held accountable for the actions of some random idiot on two wheels who chooses to blow through every red light. I do not associate myself with people like that.

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Cowled- I feel exactly the same about other riders, unfortunately the issue is others are holding us accountable by the fact they see us as being associates of others breaking the law etc on bicycles which is nothing we can do about. This is where our behaviour as a general riding community may help change perceptions of those with the mental ability to change their ideas.

We maybe reasonably intelligent as a species but why are 60-80% of us overweight to obese, drink too much etc when the overwhelming evidence and common sense is it is doing us harm.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby biker jk » Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:33 am

outnabike wrote:
London Boy wrote: Whether I am riding or driving, if I see a cyclist go through a red light I will tend to yell at him (or her) that he (or she) is giving us a bad name...

Snipped

London Boy, That is being the problem not solving it.... All, it does is say "I may be a great cyclist , but not a great person."


No, the problem is the cyclist riding through the red light. London Boy is providing the solution which is to stop doing it.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Lukeyboy » Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:43 am

I thought the solution would be to just stop.
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