Moron Motorists #3

open topic, for anything cycling related.

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby leximack » Sat Jul 19, 2014 11:36 am

Boognoss wrote:More close passing in North Ryde. Because I was commuting with a mate who also has front and rear GoPros I thought this was worthy of special Spielbergy treatment:



nice one, the folding back of the mirrors is a favourite for me (and many cyclists im sure). :D :D
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by BNA » Sat Jul 19, 2014 11:40 am

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby trailgumby » Sat Jul 19, 2014 11:40 am

yugyug wrote:Now I wouldn't hesitate to call am ambulance for even a minor injury, because maybe thats the only way I can be sure the police will turn up to the scene and take the incident seriously. Thats not right, but its an extension of the police attitude to cyclists not being right.

That's my approach, and my reasoning too.

Before the trolls get stuck in, in my state if you are conscious and able to speak coherently you will be called by a triage nurse while the ambulance is in transit who will perform an assessment and prioritise you.

Shock and adrenalin can mask symptoms of serious injury, and an independent assessment on site is warranted.

One of my bingles that was a result of a right hook, I fell off the car's hood and onto the upturned end of my handlebar, landing on it right next to my sternum. The paramedic was very concerned and had me hooked up to an ECG for about 10-15 minutes before he'd let me out of the van. He said that calling him was absolutely the right thing to do even though I otherwise felt fine.
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Moron Motorists #3

Postby warthog1 » Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:27 pm

yugyug wrote:
Now I wouldn't hesitate to call am ambulance for even a minor injury, because maybe thats the only way I can be sure the police will turn up to the scene and take the incident seriously. Thats not right, but its an extension of the police attitude to cyclists not being right.


That is definitely not right, because you are misusing a limited resource. In my town of 106,000 people there are 4 stretcher cars available at any one time.
A consequence of calling an ambulance for a minor injury, so that you can be taken seriously by the police, may be that someone who is having a heart attack, or stroke, or other genuine life threatening emergency, may be forced to wait longer for an ambulance.
It may have fatal or life changing consequences for others, to use an emergency resource inappropriately. It is a daily and increasing occurence, for multiple reasons, you are definitely not alone in your attitude, no matter how ignorant it is.
Police will attend a MVA regardless of paramedic attendance in most states. Injury or paramedic attendance doesn't change official attitudes to cyclists. Ask Cowled, or the family of Richard Pollet if you require confirmation.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby skull » Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:32 pm

Yeah if you don't have an ambo in attendance and submit you to hospital in a road accident it gets really complicated when trying to chase up costs and medical.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby human909 » Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:25 pm

warthog1 wrote:Police will attend a MVA regardless of paramedic attendance in most states.

That is incorrect. Police will normally refuse to attend accidents if there are no injuries. (This is in Victoria.)

warthog1 wrote:Injury or paramedic attendance doesn't change official attitudes to cyclists.

Yes it does. It gets them to attend the scene. Which is better than not having the police attend.

warthog1 wrote:That is definitely not right, because you are misusing a limited resource.

The paramedics can priorities their needs. But if I get hit by a car in any significant way I will be calling for an ambulance because that is the only way to get the police to attend.

I had to battle for 6 months with the insurance company and contact the ombudsman to sort out an insurance claim. (My bike, my friend got hit on it in front of me.) This was despite police and ambulance attendance. I've had other friends get hit and run and the police refuse to get involved. The entire system is rigged against cyclists.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby warthog1 » Sat Jul 19, 2014 7:02 pm

human909 wrote:
warthog1 wrote:Police will attend a MVA regardless of paramedic attendance in most states.

That is incorrect. Police will normally refuse to attend accidents if there are no injuries. (This is in Victoria.)

warthog1 wrote:Injury or paramedic attendance doesn't change official attitudes to cyclists.

Yes it does. It gets them to attend the scene. Which is better than not having the police attend.



In 12 1/2 years on the road as a paramedic that is most certainly not my experience. I just rang my team manager in the ESTA dispatch centre and he confirmed my experience. Police are the controlling agency in an MVA. The only time they may have no interest in attending is if the accident is on private property and there are no injuries. In practice they have resourcing problems similar to ambulance and they may occasionally not be able to attend every accident. Calling an ambulance does not make police attendance an automatic response.
Calling paramedics to satisfy some perceived notion of a better legal outcome is inappropriate, selfish and time wasting.
By all means if there has been an injury or a major impact yes call, but the problem is that the system that is in place does not accurately or appropriately prioritise and chances are the ambulance is likely to be diverted from someone else.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby iaintas » Sat Jul 19, 2014 7:35 pm

human909 wrote:
warthog1 wrote:Police will attend a MVA regardless of paramedic attendance in most states.

That is incorrect. Police will normally refuse to attend accidents if there are no injuries. (This is in Victoria.)

warthog1 wrote:Injury or paramedic attendance doesn't change official attitudes to cyclists.

Yes it does. It gets them to attend the scene. Which is better than not having the police attend.

warthog1 wrote:That is definitely not right, because you are misusing a limited resource.

The paramedics can priorities their needs. But if I get hit by a car in any significant way I will be calling for an ambulance because that is the only way to get the police to attend.

I had to battle for 6 months with the insurance company and contact the ombudsman to sort out an insurance claim. (My bike, my friend got hit on it in front of me.) This was despite police and ambulance attendance. I've had other friends get hit and run and the police refuse to get involved. The entire system is rigged against cyclists.


:shock:

Police will not attend all accidents that involve injury, or every incident that paramedics attend, the paramedics do not routinely call the police (that is your job if you believe you need them). It is likely an ambulance will be diverted to the job even if its a minor injury due to the questioning algorithms that ambulance services use, they always go on worst case scenario. This will likely result in a code 1 call (which not only puts paramedics in danger from high speed driving but potentially other road users and uses a resource that is in short supply).

If you want the police to attend, then call the police!. Don't call the paramedics through some ignorant and selfish notion that its better for an insurance claim. :roll: :roll:
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby yugyug » Sat Jul 19, 2014 7:41 pm

warthog1 wrote: In my town of 106,000 people there are 4 stretcher cars available at any one time.
A consequence of calling an ambulance for a minor injury, so that you can be taken seriously by the police, may be that someone who is having a heart attack, or stroke, or other genuine life threatening emergency, may be forced to wait longer for an ambulance. .


I don't live in a small town. I live in the biggest city in Australia and dealing with the police is like looking into a black mirror. Maybe if I lived in a small town I would know the police or they would be in my social network and I would be able to get more more appropriate treatment, but in both my accidents the police attitude to my situation was poor to disgraceful and I have no doubt it is because of the prevailing attitudes towards cyclists.

Regardless, (and also regardless to the point that I may not be the best judge of my injuries after an accident and calling am ambulance is the safest course of action), what you claim about taking an ambulance away from someone else is hypothetical, and thats not enough reason for me to negate my own health and wellbeing after an accident. The system is broken, but if someone higher up the hierarchy does observe that cyclists are placing an undue burden on the ambulance system, if thats even true, they may also ask why, and that can only be a good thing for cyclists, police reform, and society at large.
Last edited by yugyug on Sat Jul 19, 2014 7:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby human909 » Sat Jul 19, 2014 7:41 pm

warthog1 wrote:In 12 1/2 years on the road as a paramedic that is most certainly not my experience.

I'm not discounting your experience in your state. But in Victoria the police generally have no interest in attending collisions where there is no injury or significant traffic problems. (In NSW I believe it is different and I have no clue about other states.)

warthog1 wrote:The only time they may have no interest in attending is if the accident is on private property and there are no injuries.

That is untrue. I have called the police and was specifically told that they will not attend because nobody was injured. In fact with no injury they usually will dismiss it as not their isssue.

warthog1 wrote:Calling an ambulance does not make police attendance an automatic response.

No, but injuries do make it a police issue. As per the Road Safety Act. 61A

warthog1 wrote:Calling paramedics to satisfy some perceived notion of a better legal outcome is inappropriate, selfish and time wasting.

Since it is the only way to get police involved that is exactly what I'll do if I think I need police involved. I agree that it is unfortunate that's the case but I don't make the rules here.

iaintas wrote:If you want the police to attend, then call the police!

As I have said the police do not do that if there are no injuries. The police do not take reports of accidents where there are no injuries and the police do not charge those involved. If an ambulance is called the that changes everything. I don't make the rules.

Straight from the police website
Traffic Accident Reports may be available if:
• an injury was reported to Victoria Police as a result of a collision
• a hit-and-run collision occurred and there is a chance of identifying the offender
• owners of damaged property or vehicles are not notified of the collision by the end of the police investigator’s shift.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby outnabike » Sat Jul 19, 2014 7:54 pm

human909 wrote:.
Police will normally refuse to attend accidents if there are no injuries. (This is in Victoria.)[/quote]
Snipped.

Absolutely correct in Vic.
I once was involved in a roll over right in front of the Dandenong Hospital. Two blokes had to climb out of the busted windows, sad and sorry. A cop was just coming out from the Hospital and walking to wards his car. My car is smashed in the front mudguard and there are these two half out of the up turned other vehicle.
The cop says "Any body hurt?' We look at each other "Nope " I say. "Ok, no need for me then, see you later" He says and drives off.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby human909 » Sat Jul 19, 2014 7:54 pm

trailgumby wrote:Shock and adrenalin can mask symptoms of serious injury, and an independent assessment on site is warranted.


Very true. My friend for whom I called the police/ambulance for got looked at by the paramedics and they gave her a choice of hospital or not. She decided not, and we planned to take the train back. While of the train adrenaline wore off and by the time we got to Melbourne she couldn't walk. She spent a week in bed due to badly torn back/hip muscles.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby warthog1 » Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:01 pm

human909 wrote:But in Victoria the police generally have no interest in attending collisions where there is no injury or significant traffic problems. (In NSW I believe it is different and I have no clue about other states.)


I am in victoria

human909 wrote: I have called the police and was specifically told that they will not attend because nobody was injured. In fact with no injury they usually will dismiss it as not their isssue.


I am not a legal expert. If you believe there is an issue that there is another party at fault, that is a police issue not an ambulance issue. I refer again to resourcing issues however I am no expert at police resource allocation.
IME the only time paramedic attendance requires police attendance is if our personal safety is threatened. They will attend car accidents at our request for traffic management purposes, (scene safety).

human909 wrote:
warthog1 wrote:Calling an ambulance does not make police attendance an automatic response.

No, but injuries do make it a police issue. As per the Road Safety Act. 61A


I fail to see that in there and again not my area of expertise;

ROAD SAFETY ACT 1986 - SECT 61

Duty of driver etc. of motor vehicle if accident occurs
(1) If owing to the presence of a motor vehicle an accident occurs whereby any person is injured or any property (including any animal) is damaged or destroyed, the driver of the motor vehicle—

(a) must immediately stop the motor vehicle; and

(b) must immediately render such assistance as he or she can; and

(c) must at the scene of the accident as soon as possible give his or her name and address and also the name and address of the owner of the motor vehicle and the identifying number of the motor vehicle—

(i) to any person who has been injured or to the owner of any property which has been damaged or destroyed; or

(ii) to a person representing the injured person or the owner of the property; and

S. 61(1)(d) amended by No. 37/2014 s. 10(Sch. item 147.19).

(d) must at the scene of the accident as soon as possible give those names and addresses to any police officer who is present; and

S. 61(1)(e) amended by No. 37/2014 s. 10(Sch. item 147.19).

(e) if any person is injured and no police officer is present at the scene of the accident, must as soon as possible report in person full particulars of the accident at the police station that is most accessible from the scene of the accident if that station is open and, if it is not open, at the next most accessible station; and

S. 61(1)(f) amended by No. 37/2014 s. 10(Sch. item 147.19).

(f) if any property is damaged or destroyed and neither the owner of the property nor any person representing the owner nor any police officer is present at the scene of the accident, must as soon as possible report in person full particulars of the accident at the police station that is most accessible from the scene of the accident if that station is open and, if it is not open, at the next most accessible station.

(2) If a motor vehicle which has been left standing on a highway moves of its own accord from the position in which it was left and is involved in an accident whereby any person is injured or any property (including any animal) is damaged or destroyed, the person who left the motor vehicle so standing must as soon as possible after becoming aware of the accident comply as far as the circumstances permit with the requirements of subsection (1).


http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/rsa1986125/s61.html

human909 wrote:
warthog1 wrote:Calling paramedics to satisfy some perceived notion of a better legal outcome is inappropriate, selfish and time wasting.

Since it is the only way to get police involved that is exactly what I'll do if I think I need police involved. I agree that it is unfortunate that's the case but I don't make the rules here.


That is not the rules or application of the rules that is in practice. By doing that unnecessarily you may be selfishly depriving someone of care they need. You wouldn't be the first or last though :x

iaintas wrote:If you want the police to attend, then call the police!

correct :)
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby human909 » Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:08 pm

warthog1 wrote:I am not a legal expert. If you believe there is an issue that there is another party at fault, that is a police issue not an ambulance issue.

No it is not a police issue. That is my point.

warthog1 wrote:Calling an ambulance does not make police attendance an automatic response.

In general, it does. The police will normally attend if an ambulance is called.

warthog1 wrote:
iaintas wrote:If you want the police to attend, then call the police!

correct :)

Except it isn't correct. I have tried that and it hasn't occurred. Despite multiple vehicles involved and their owners not present.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby il padrone » Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:10 pm

Police rules on attendance at traffic collisions changed a few years ago. Any collision involving either personal injury or property damage must be reported at a police station. But that is seperate from attendance.

Police at your collision?
Only if…
• Any person involved has been injured
• The collision is a hazard to other traffic
• There is any ongoing danger to people or property
• A driver appears to be under the influence of alcohol/drugs


from Police Collision Information
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby warthog1 » Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:14 pm

yugyug wrote:
Regardless, (and also regardless to the point that I may not be the best judge of my injuries after an accident and calling am ambulance is the safest course of action), what you claim about taking an ambulance away from someone else is hypothetical, and thats not enough reason for me to negate my own health and wellbeing after an accident. The system is broken, but if someone higher up the hierarchy does observe that cyclists are placing an undue burden on the ambulance system, if thats even true, they may also ask why, and that can only be a good thing for cyclists, police reform, and society at large.


It was this part of your post I had issue with and am arguing with H909 about yet again.

yugyug wrote:Now I wouldn't hesitate to call am ambulance for even a minor injury, because maybe thats the only way I can be sure the police will turn up to the scene and take the incident seriously


Ambulance attendance is not a precursor for police attendance. Calling us will not guarantee police attendance and doing so to get their attendance should be subject to a fine in my view. :| Seems people don't give a carp about the welfare of others but do care about their own financial liability. :(
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby warthog1 » Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:28 pm

human909 wrote:
warthog1 wrote:I am not a legal expert. If you believe there is an issue that there is another party at fault, that is a police issue not an ambulance issue.

No it is not a police issue. That is my point.


Doesn't make it an ambulance issue. If it aint a police issue I don't know who's issue it is. Not that I'm trying to give them more work the poor buggers :oops: They are generally under resourced and over allocated IME. I would not choose to do their job.

human909 wrote:
warthog1 wrote:Calling an ambulance does not make police attendance an automatic response.

In general, it does. The police will normally attend if an ambulance is called.


The police will attend if they have units available to attend. Calling for an ambulance may make the lovely dispatch grid err on the side of caution and send more resources that aren't available. Doing so to get that response in the form of police attendance is pig ignorant IMO.

human909 wrote:
warthog1 wrote:
iaintas wrote:If you want the police to attend, then call the police!

correct :)

Except it isn't correct. I have tried that and it hasn't occurred. Despite multiple vehicles involved and their owners not present.


Nobody want's to pay taxes any more, particularly those who can most afford them. Services aren't as well resourced as they should be. I suggest when you call for police attendance in future you be more insistent.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby human909 » Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:30 pm

warthog1 wrote:Seems people don't give a carp about the welfare of others but do care about their own financial liability. :(


You keep going on about this and about selfishness. I do resent this.

I'm someone who is loath to call for emergency services. I am a self reliant outdoors enthusiast practiced in leadership and rescue in extreme settings. I am wilderness first aid trained and and involved in BSAR. I've broken bones half way up 100m cliffs and willingly extricated myself and then drove halfway across the state before popping in to see a doctor.

Are all these cyclists racing in crits being selfish by putting themselves at risk? What about all those ambulances called down beach road for cycle accidents? When I break bones I get myself to medical attention.

However the fact of the matter is that if I believe I need police attendance following a accident I will report possible injuries because that is the way the system works.


Oxford wrote:I thought this thread was about Moron Motorists, not the abuse of public services?

Please don't insinuate this. I've needed nor called for an ambulance for myself ever. I don't plan to either. Getting the police to attend a significant bicycle accident is NOT an abuse of public services.
Last edited by human909 on Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby warthog1 » Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:38 pm

human909 wrote:
warthog1 wrote:Seems people don't give a carp about the welfare of others but do care about their own financial liability. :(


You keep going on about this and about selfishness. I do resent this.

I'm someone who is loath to call for emergency services. I am a self reliant outdoors enthusiast practiced in leadership and rescue in extreme settings. I am wilderness first aid trained and and involved in BSAR. I've broken bones half way up 100m cliffs and willingly extricated myself.

Are all these cyclists racing in crits being selfish by putting themselves at risk? What about all those ambulances called down beach road for cycle accidents? When I break bones I get myself to medical attention.


However the fact of the matter is that if I believe I need police attendance following a accident I will report possible injuries because that is the way the system works.


Because the last bit is not calling an ambulance for what it is there for, and given the under resourcing of them, along with the ridiculous dispatch grid that is in place in the lovely state of Vic, there is a fair chance that in doing so, you are taking an ambulance away from someone who needs it for a better health outcome.
All the other stuff you are a champion by the way :) . I wouldn't find myself half way up a cliff in the first place, but if I was there with a fracture I'm calling an ambulance thanks. :o
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby human909 » Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:53 pm

We we can agree to have conflicting attitudes here. I do agree with you regarding wastage of emergency services. The resources that are thrown into action when somebody gets stuck in the outdoors is incredible, you are talking 20+ people and choppers normally. For what is often a sprained ankle from some gumby who could have hobbled out.

If you can suggest to me a way to have police to attend an accident scene without reporting injuries then please do. But when I have tried in the past I have had no luck.


But as I have said, all this is hypothetical. I'll continue to do my best to never call an ambulance for myself.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby iaintas » Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:56 pm

You can always go to your GP if it's a medical report your after. If you think you don't actually need to go to an emergency department for immediate treatment then don't call an ambulance!
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby nomadicsoul » Sat Jul 19, 2014 9:10 pm

On my way home from work, there are a few places where I have to take the lane to be safe. More often than not, someone comes up right behind me, revving their engine, stop start type behaviour. As soon as I can, I pull over and let them pass. I would rather get home safe than die proving a point...
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby yugyug » Sat Jul 19, 2014 11:54 pm

warthog1 wrote:[
It was this part of your post I had issue with and am arguing with H909 about yet again.

yugyug wrote:Now I wouldn't hesitate to call am ambulance for even a minor injury, because maybe thats the only way I can be sure the police will turn up to the scene and take the incident seriously



Your issue is that you don't understand one reason doesn't preclude other reasons. An injury is an injury and its been pointed out several times that the injured are not necessarily the best to judge their own injuries. As a paramedic I would expect you to acknowledge that. My point is that if being cautious also motivates a lazy cop to get off their arse and do their job properly then thats great, I'm happy be grit in the system, because the system needs to change. Cyclists are copping it hard and we need to be more active, present and forthright about our rights and requirements.

I'm also not one to abuse ambulance services so get off your high horse. You might have noted in my original comment on this subject, about being the victim of a hit and run, that I didn't call an ambulance and instead sought treatment from a GP - who referred me to the emergency ward.
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Moron Motorists #3

Postby herzog » Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:25 am

Incredibly, this rider walked away from this:

Last edited by herzog on Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby warthog1 » Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:38 am

yugyug wrote:
warthog1 wrote:[
It was this part of your post I had issue with and am arguing with H909 about yet again.

yugyug wrote:Now I wouldn't hesitate to call am ambulance for even a minor injury, because maybe thats the only way I can be sure the police will turn up to the scene and take the incident seriously



Your issue is that you don't understand one reason doesn't preclude other reasons. An injury is an injury and its been pointed out several times that the injured are not necessarily the best to judge their own injuries. As a paramedic I would expect you to acknowledge that. My point is that if being cautious also motivates a lazy cop to get off their arse and do their job properly then thats great, I'm happy be grit in the system, because the system needs to change. Cyclists are copping it hard and we need to be more active, present and forthright about our rights and requirements.

I'm also not one to abuse ambulance services so get off your high horse. You might have noted in my original comment on this subject, about being the victim of a hit and run, that I didn't call an ambulance and instead sought treatment from a GP - who referred me to the emergency ward.



Yeah sorry mate I had it all wrong. If you need an ambulance in order to get the police there go ahead and call it what the hell would I know :oops:
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby human909 » Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:27 am

warthog1 wrote:Yeah sorry mate I had it all wrong. If you need an ambulance in order to get the police there go ahead and call it what the hell would I know :oops:

Out of interest what number should I call at the side of the road following a serious crash if I wish to get the police to attend?
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