Moron Motorists #3

open topic, for anything cycling related.

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Oxford » Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:48 pm

I'm posting this only because the representative of the business has threatened me with legal action. Any chance of me taking down the video is long gone now. I was prepared to take it down if the mood of our conversation was more conciliatory and an apology or at least recognition that the situation was poorly handled, but to go on the attack at me is just plain stupid.

So to explain the video, I was riding home, approaching a parked vehicle so moved into the lane further to be well and truly outside the door zone. This learner driver under instruction was approaching and I figured being a professional driver situation that sense would prevail while I passed the parked car. No the driver was not advised to hold back, but to proceed. As far as I am concerned, this is where driver habits are formed and a professional instructor would not accept their students being menaced, so why accept teaching them to menace other road users?

So the business representative says they have taken the video to the police and the police say no problem with what they see. Funny, there's no calibration lines and no one has asked me how wide my bike is or how close I estimate the car to have been based on the calibrations, oh and wait a minute I haven't actually made a complaint, so naturally the QPS will do nothing (SOP) as there is no complainant in the matter. So that's all worth a pinch of the brown stuff.

As for the video, it was very borderline which is why I did not calibrate it as I am not making a formal complaint. I just wanted to bring my concerns to their attention.

I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby casual_cyclist » Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:49 pm

kenwstr wrote:In relation to some of the recent close pass reports, this my be an unpopular view here but... As both a road cyclist and car driver, I think that from a drivers perspective, we must assess the intent of other road users by something like body language, eye contact, position speed etc. You know how you get a 6th sence about situations. Thinking about this, l realise I am inclined to interpret a cyclist riding far left to mean they are comfortable with me passing them. Ok, I realise that while riding my bike, I don't necessarily feel that way. The point is though that if I, a fellow cyclist looking out for other cyclists while driving am inclined to view it that way, how much more drivers who don't ride?

I agree. On the rare occasions that I ride in the gutter, I expect to be passed and I expect that some of those passes will be close.

My issue is close shaves when I clearly claimed the lane and where there is a whole other lane for the idiots to use. Of course this doesn't stop close shaves. Some people simply can't judge and some people simply don't care.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby InTheWoods » Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:56 pm

outnabike wrote:Just thinking, If I can get hold of different cameras , set them central on my bike I could set up a data base of grids for say the top 5 cameras used by riders. I am expecting my small Mobius unit from Hong Kong soon and it will be a small start. I can then download them to the forum and any one can choose their grid as an overlay. Alternately I can do it for members and download it back.(time given of course.)


My issue with that is the grid changes a fair bit depending on the up/down angle of the camera (and obviously if the camera is pointing exactly straight back, is centred on the bike (or is on a chainstay), is twisted on the lens axis, and on the lean of the bike, and the camber of the road, and if the bike is pointing exactly straight ahead (it often isn't) - so many variables). I was playing with calibrating mine and it didn't take much to throw out the gridlines, I've got a comparison picture somewhere.

The main thing I noticed is that the widest gridlines (ie the 1 m one, even at the closest point to the bike before it drops off the bottom of the image) can be waaay out (say +-1 foot) even with small changes in angles. However the 50cm line close in to the bike varied a *lot* less, and my 25cm line was only changing by a couple of cm close in to the bike.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Mulger bill » Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:45 pm

Sidestreet pullout. Slowed, looked, realised it's a "only" a bike and suddenly zero rats were given. Got a little closer than I'd like. Seven straight 0600 shifts have slowed down the reactions a little.
Had I been feeling a little more combatative the red lights a very short way down the road may have led to an interesting chat.
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby mikeyg63 » Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:53 pm

Oxford wrote:I'm posting this only because the representative of the business has threatened me with legal action. Any chance of me taking down the video is long gone now. I was prepared to take it down if the mood of our conversation was more conciliatory and an apology or at least recognition that the situation was poorly handled, but to go on the attack at me is just plain stupid.

So to explain the video, I was riding home, approaching a parked vehicle so moved into the lane further to be well and truly outside the door zone. This learner driver under instruction was approaching and I figured being a professional driver situation that sense would prevail while I passed the parked car. No the driver was not advised to hold back, but to proceed. As far as I am concerned, this is where driver habits are formed and a professional instructor would not accept their students being menaced, so why accept teaching them to menace other road users?

So the business representative says they have taken the video to the police and the police say no problem with what they see. Funny, there's no calibration lines and no one has asked me how wide my bike is or how close I estimate the car to have been based on the calibrations, oh and wait a minute I haven't actually made a complaint, so naturally the QPS will do nothing (SOP) as there is no complainant in the matter. So that's all worth a pinch of the brown stuff.

As for the video, it was very borderline which is why I did not calibrate it as I am not making a formal complaint. I just wanted to bring my concerns to their attention.




Who was driving the car in the end? Was it the learner or the instructor. In any case it was disgraceful piece of driving and either way the instructor is responsible.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby maestro » Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:55 pm

InTheWoods wrote:My issue with that is the grid changes a fair bit depending on the up/down angle of the camera (and obviously if the camera is pointing exactly straight back, is centred on the bike (or is on a chainstay), is twisted on the lens axis, and on the lean of the bike, and the camber of the road, and if the bike is pointing exactly straight ahead (it often isn't) - so many variables). I was playing with calibrating mine and it didn't take much to throw out the gridlines, I've got a comparison picture somewhere.


That is absolutely correct, the height and angle of the camera must be the same as in the calibration photo. Also, you can tell that outnabike's grid is not right for Jason's camera as parallel lines will always meet at the same point on the horizon (if extended, the grid lines will meet much earlier than the lane-line or the kerb from the photo, therefore Jason's camera has a much narrower field of view than outnabike's).

If you have a serious incident and really wanted to put some effort into retrospectively calibrating then (assuming a straight stretch of road) you could extend the kerb and lane lines until they meet (to find the infinity convergence point), then go back to the scene with a copy of a still frame and find a spot that is easily identifiable in the photo and measure the width of the lane at that point. You can then draw the line that you measured onto your photo (perpendicular to the direction of travel) at the same place as you measured and calculate a distance per pixel at that point. You can then measure distances across that line and draw lines through these measured points from the infinity point to get grid lines in the direction of travel.

When doing this you will need to be careful of the lean on your bike (ideally you should be able to find both ends of your measured line on the photo, as the line may not be exactly in line with the horizontal axis of the camera). Also, if you are travelling directly in line with the road (parallel to the kerb, not slightly diagonally) then you should be able to draw your centreline of travel with a line from the infinity point to your back wheel. This will need to be done on a per-frame basis as the camera/bike angle is not constant.

See the attached modified file.
The blue line is 166 pixels from road centre to kerb. I assumed a 5 metre lane width, so 33.2 pixels per metre.
Using outnabike's bike dimensions picture gives a 75cm wide bike, or 37.5cm from centreline (12.5 pixels, inner green line), adding a metre to this gives a metre clearance line of 45.65 pixels (outer green line).
So with those assumptions, the car gave more than 1m clearance. If the lane was only 4m wide, then the green lines would be further out and the clearance may have been less than 1 metre.
Image

Apologies if I got over-technical.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Oxford » Thu Aug 21, 2014 8:08 pm

mikeyg63 wrote:....


Who was driving the car in the end? Was it the learner or the instructor. In any case it was disgraceful piece of driving and either way the instructor is responsible.

It was a learner driver and it is for this reason that I will not formally complain to QPS, because the learner wears it not the instructor and IMO it is the instructor who should be penalised for allowing the situation to occur and not giving appropriate advice to assess the situation and take a conservative approach. Makes a mockery of their driving values they espouse on their website.
I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby jasonc » Thu Aug 21, 2014 8:14 pm

maestro wrote:Apologies if I got over-technical.


wow. I think the lane is between 4 and 4.5m wide
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby maestro » Thu Aug 21, 2014 8:34 pm

Oxford wrote:
mikeyg63 wrote:....Who was driving the car in the end? Was it the learner or the instructor. In any case it was disgraceful piece of driving and either way the instructor is responsible.

It was a learner driver and it is for this reason that I will not formally complain to QPS, because the learner wears it not the instructor and IMO it is the instructor who should be penalised for allowing the situation to occur and not giving appropriate advice to assess the situation and take a conservative approach. Makes a mockery of their driving values they espouse on their website.

Have you checked that? I was in an accident (many years ago, and in NSW) whilst on my L's and my father did all the dealings with the cops. They didn't want to talk to me at all as he was considered to be the person responsible for the vehicle.

Even so... Imagine the publicity if one of their students got a telling off by the cops for something the instructor told them to do.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Oxford » Thu Aug 21, 2014 8:39 pm

maestro wrote:
Oxford wrote:
mikeyg63 wrote:....Who was driving the car in the end? Was it the learner or the instructor. In any case it was disgraceful piece of driving and either way the instructor is responsible.

It was a learner driver and it is for this reason that I will not formally complain to QPS, because the learner wears it not the instructor and IMO it is the instructor who should be penalised for allowing the situation to occur and not giving appropriate advice to assess the situation and take a conservative approach. Makes a mockery of their driving values they espouse on their website.

Have you checked that? I was in an accident (many years ago, and in NSW) whilst on my L's and my father did all the dealings with the cops. They didn't want to talk to me at all as he was considered to be the person responsible for the vehicle.

Even so... Imagine the publicity if one of their students got a telling off by the cops for something the instructor told them to do.

Actually after I posted that I thought about it and you may be correct. I remember reading in an RBT situation the instructor is liable for the drunk learner so you could be right. Might make some enquiries tomorrow. I still have the raw footage and could overlay the calibrations, its very close but off course the overhang of the car and the mirror take it past questionable to inside 1 metre.
I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby maestro » Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:07 pm

jasonc wrote:
maestro wrote:Apologies if I got over-technical.


wow. I think the lane is between 4 and 4.5m wide

Then the car probably gave less than 1 metre clearance.

Of course the other method is to go out there with a friend, a camera and a tape measure, and take a photo from the same spot with the tape measure from the kerb to where the car was.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby outnabike » Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:08 pm

[quote=

See the attached modified file.
The blue line is 166 pixels from road centre to kerb. I assumed a 5 metre lane width, so 33.2 pixels per metre.
Using outnabike's bike dimensions picture gives a 75cm wide bike, or 37.5cm from centreline (12.5 pixels, inner green line), adding a metre to this gives a metre clearance line of 45.65 pixels (outer green line).
So with those assumptions, the car gave more than 1m clearance. If the lane was only 4m wide, then the green lines would be further out and the clearance may have been less than 1 metre.
Image

Apologies if I got over-technical.[/quote]

That's good maestro, and shows that the arithmetic has to match the grid as well. There is a lot in this grid business. Also my grid is going into the hill and your lines there are more line of sight to the logical horizon. that because the camera is pointed low as well I suppose, but shows the need for individuality. I will pave play and without altering any thing bring the grid up a bit to see if comes up to your line of sight.

I put that up quickly but the whole rule, if we are to abide by it needs to be documented by probably, bike advocate organisations and our esteemed law makers.
Then any grid we apply will be from a premise of an accepted and approved base. It is a bit hard on a cyclist to say a metre from the rider and not allow for the rider to move within his lane. We can all nominate a reason to go off line and it is completely reasonable to have at least a metre bike room, to allow for slow speed wobble, room to dodge a bit of glass, being blown by the wind or even just human error.
There doesn’t seem a lot of info on the Police sites regarding something like what we see in that pic above yet they must have considered all that I am questioning here. It may be under transport rules or buried amongst something like that to control manufactures.
At present each rider is on his own as regards all these matters and I want to nail it down to factual parameters so that we can get an acceptable grid to use, and though not perfect, close enough to say to the police “This is what we think, you refute it.”
Cameras are going to be more popular and we should get into a place of power as regards the proof.
At present I am reading complete bull from dunderheads criticising cyclists and taking the metre that matters from the centre of the bike, and cyclists having to defend that sort of rubbish. It would be good to be able to give something to you lawyer even if is not 100% right but at least be thought provoking.
Maybe no one has done it because it’s in the too hard basket. Any way I know nothing but I’m just puddling along to get a grip of things.

My grid being laid out on the ground if continued would eventually stretch out to the horizon as well.All I have done here is lift the end point in line with the line of site to make it look more up hill. I didn't alter the widths but it gives a totally different perspective and comes more into line with your lines.You can see the white outline from where I lifted the line.
I know it should get narrower at the far end to be true to the eye of course. I get your point.
I reckon the longer the grid lines the closer it gets to reality though.

Image
Last edited by outnabike on Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Biffidus » Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:22 pm

Biffidus wrote:I had this close pass on Monday morning:

Trying to decide if I should report it to the company or police, or both.

Thanks for the suggestions. I agree with ken, you gotta claim the lane. I was well in from the gutter as that lane is not wide enough for a car to pass, let alone a truck.

I emailed the company and received the following reply. I'll wait for the follow up before I decide what to do next...
Sorry for the delay in responding, but I have been waiting to speak with the driver prior to responding however due to illness he won’t be back at work till next week and I didn’t want you to think that we were ignoring your complaint or not giving it the consideration that it deserves.

I have viewed the you tube clip, and this clearly shows that the driver has cut back across the lane far too soon and for no apparent reason as there was very little traffic in the right lane, this type of behaviour is not condoned and you can be reassured that I will be speaking with the driver on his return next week.

Until I have the facts directly from the driver I really cannot comment in relation to why it happened however given our screening process and the level of training that we provide to our drivers I really don’t think that there was any malice involved, but more just a lack of care in not ensuring he had provided an adequate clearance , either way I will be taking the appropriate action with this driver to prevent a reoccurrence.

Please accept my apologies for the incident.

I have copied the video image for my records so could you please now remove it from you tube.

Kind Regards

Mark Haggar
Regional Manager SA - NT

PRIXCAR SERVICES PTY LTD and
PRIXCAR TRANSPORT SERVICES PTY LTD
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Oxford » Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:44 pm

See, now a response like that would have me removing the footage of the learner driver. But to attack me and get aggressive just boils the blood. Well done to Prixcar for a pro-active approach.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby outnabike » Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:48 pm

A good result Biffidus,and sounds like a decent company trying to do the right thing.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby outnabike » Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:58 pm

Oxford wrote:
Even so... Imagine the publicity if one of their students got a telling off by the cops for something the instructor told them to do.

Actually after I posted that I thought about it and you may be correct. I remember reading in an RBT situation the instructor is liable for the drunk learner so you could be right. Might make some enquiries tomorrow. I still have the raw footage and could overlay the calibrations, its very close but off course the overhang of the car and the mirror take it past questionable to inside 1 metre.[/quote]

Hi Oxford
When I stop the video where you are coming close to the left hand car It sure doesn't appear to leave you a lot of room. By the time you clear the door zone there was not enough room to pass you really. That is bad driver instructing for sure. Most uncomfortable getting that treatment from a learner.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby CXCommuter » Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:15 pm

Wonderfull motorists have advised me on three separate occasions for no visible reason that my overall appearance resembles the end of a certain male only appendage (BTW what is offensive with the word pe$is, it is the correct anotomical term for goodness sake). Thankfully none of these eloquent advisers have been held up by traffic lights to further advise of perceived issues with my appearance or enable me to return the compliment.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby queequeg » Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:16 pm

Not cycling, but had a MM in a Holden V8 Ute doing a massive burnout on the wet street near my house. Heard him around the corner, and it seemed to be getting closer to my house.
Races out the front as he was slowly fishtailing up the hill right outside my house, followed by two other cars (presumably his mates).
Got his rego and straight onto the police. Disappointed to find out that they only do a broadcast of the car rego for patrols to watch out for, but were not going to pay the registered driver a visit. They wanted to know if we would make a formal statement at a police station. Why would I bother doing that if they can't be bothered paying the driver a visit? Anyway, I said we would if they required is to.
The last car that did this ended up slamming into the telegraph pole 25m from my house, tearing off the back axle and occupants scurrying away in the dark like cockroaches, leaving the smouldering wreck opposite my driveway.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby dungee » Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:10 am

Apparently this was not dangerous, can't seem to get any action from the police on this. I'm going to head back to the station again this evening but the two previous occasions I've been jerked about and asked "what was wrong with that" I'm trying not to get too angry with them... I'll use Oxfords form this time.

I have no doubt that if I was in the middle of the lane here I'd be a red smear on his bumper bar, he was not about to swerve or stop, could see him coming and moved as far left as possible. So no lectures about claiming the lane... This was in a 70k zone and he was doing way more than 70. I was finding it difficult to keep things going straight by the last pic. I often ride this route with my wife in tow some mornings, if she was out that morning I'm sure she would have ended up under the wheels.

If the police fail me again I'm going to name and shame them on Youtube etc.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Oxford » Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:21 am

If you are sure he was speeding, can I suggest that you go back to the site prior to visiting the police, take some tape measurements over the largest possible spaces in terms of length of road traveled, then use the video in a frame by frame mode to measure the elapsed time between points to establish the speed. This is a method used by various states to determine speed infractions through toll zones so they cannot denounce it. Your camera has elapsed time, but the video editor should also break it down to tenths of seconds as well. Maybe take screenshots of the video editor time stamps.

If you need assistance with the speed calcs etc, I'm sure we can pitch in to assist.
I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Oxford » Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:24 am

I just realised that is a Qld rego (and Qld business), so if that is in Qld, then that is a clear breach of S144A. Any cop who says otherwise should be sacked. Formalise the complaint in writing and send a copy by mail to the police commissioner.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby InTheWoods » Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:27 am

Dundee are you in qld? There is no way that is anywhere near 1m. If they won't action it,mletter to the assistant commissioner for that region. I'd be doing that no matter the state. That's what I'd call a "high grade" close pass.

Edit: you need to always make sure your initial complaint to the station is in writing. Drop it to the front desk and leave without discussing it. I would mention taking it to the assistant commissioner as well.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Oxford » Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:38 am

InTheWoods wrote:Dundee are you in qld? There is no way that is anywhere near 1m. If they won't action it,mletter to the assistant commissioner for that region. I'd be doing that no matter the state. That's what I'd call a "high grade" close pass.

Edit: you need to always make sure your initial complaint to the station is in writing. Drop it to the front desk and leave without discussing it. I would mention taking it to the assistant commissioner as well.

Spot on, CC it to the Assistant Commissioner for the region. You will get a result.

http://www.police.qld.gov.au/Regional+Policing/
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby biker jk » Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:44 am

InTheWoods wrote:Dundee are you in qld? There is no way that is anywhere near 1m. If they won't action it,mletter to the assistant commissioner for that region. I'd be doing that no matter the state. That's what I'd call a "high grade" close pass.

Edit: you need to always make sure your initial complaint to the station is in writing. Drop it to the front desk and leave without discussing it. I would mention taking it to the assistant commissioner as well.


Indeed, if in Qld the minimum passing distance is 1.5m when the speed limit is over 60kmh.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby jasonc » Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:48 am

blind freddie can see that is less than 1.5m :shock:

screw em. you've tried the cops now go to the media
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