Critical Mass

open topic, for anything cycling related.

Re: Critical Mass

Postby warthog1 » Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:03 am

il padrone wrote:
warthog1 wrote:Now there's a tribe I choose not to be a part of. :roll:

Because of the image?? Now what was it you were saying about image and what makes people ride bikes?


No because of the detrimental behaviour.
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Re: Critical Mass

Postby warthog1 » Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:23 am

human909 wrote:
warthog1 wrote:I am not an apologist for the clothing I wear. if you cannot grasp that it is the bunch/group rides drawing the ire rather than the clothing then I am at a loss as to how to further illustrate the point.


Sigh.... Nobody is asking you to be an apologist. Nobody on these forums thinks less of you because of the clothing you wear. Nobody is asking you to not to wear Lycra. All that has been said is that Lycra projects an image. If you are slightly aware and honest to yourself surely you can see this. Similarly Alien27 recognises the image his commodore ute can project.


Thanks for the patronising sigh. It really helps address my points.


If you dont want to convey the impression that you are anti lycra, then dont place anti lycra sentiment in bold type and follow it up with a clip that ridicules people who choose to wear lycra on their bike.

human909 wrote:Ok. I'll spell it out. The song takes the piss out of cyclists who simply focus on "Performance". You followed it up with a subtle bragging about your speeds reached and a link to Strava. Strava and the segment competitions epitomises the competitive and performance focus that is mocked in the song!


I included that segment to illustrate the point that on many of the rides I go on the speed dicates that lycra is the only suitable kit to wear. I then went on to say;
warthog1 wrote: I have no business being there :oops:
and that it was a bunch ride which I think would indicate to most people (obviously not all) that I was not intending to brag and that the speed was not down to my effort.
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Re: Critical Mass

Postby warthog1 » Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:34 am

Nobody wrote:
human909 wrote:Nobody on these forums thinks less of you because of the clothing you wear.
Probably true if he wears team kit, but I don't remember saying it to him, or caring.


Sometimes I do but it never matches as I have shredded either tops or bottoms in crashes. I buy what is on special and cheap at the time, I reckon you might approve of that, as I'm not too concerned about image :wink:

Nobody wrote:
human909 wrote:Nobody is asking you to not to wear Lycra.
Not really. He doesn't even ride a Brooks, so how is he going to go without nicks?
:wink: :D


Ah but I've ridden a sprung leather saddle on my wife's bike in jeans a couple of times. Didn't really enjoy it though TBH, so it's not a regular occurence. :P
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Re: Critical Mass

Postby warthog1 » Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:39 am

Nobody wrote:
il padrone wrote:
warthog1 wrote:Now there's a tribe I choose not to be a part of. :roll:

Because of the image?
Image

Yeah, they look like a bunch of Freds. Hard to fit into that group with a Cervelo S5. :P


Can't seem to hold a wheel either. Are they doing rolling turns or time trial/track turns, I cant work it out from the photo :?:
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Re: Critical Mass

Postby g-boaf » Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:53 am

Xplora wrote:
g-boaf wrote:Absolutely agreed. But did you expect anything else?

For what it's worth, why CM couldn't just take the left lane as anyone else would? They are only doing us all a great load of damage. Now everyone else who doesn't ride a bike has proof that we are all like those people in the photos above. :roll:

It's trying to prove a point. Zero's explanation of the rolling block really does improve traffic flows, and if you cannot focus on your overall travel time in a car, then you shouldn't be driving.

Has anyone noticed on a commute that much of your overall time difference is governed by lights, and NOT traffic? I can cover my 20.5km inbound commute in 39 minutes without dangerous speed on the bike, it will often take me 50. I have 10 lights in the first half, and then virtually nothing for the rest. My commute speed is based on the first half. I can't ride hard enough to make up the time difference in the second half. Cars are no different. I have my opinions about red lights because they are the biggest time waster we face on the road.

Critical mass is simply highlighting the incredible short sightedness of focussing on the car, rather than the commute. I'vce noticed major traffic ways are being subjugated to buses and trams. This is initially stupid, until you realise that the car has already maxed out the road in peak hour. You have to incentivise noncar options so that your decision to do a positive thing isn't made impossible. I think the poor light sequences of the bike paths fall into this category. Maximum speed isn't the key to your commute. It is average speed. A CM rolling road block isn't hurting your average speed. The every day peakhour rolling roadblock of cars is. Drive at 2am at you'll quickly realise that the cars are the problem :lol:


I agree on traffic light sequences, that's the huge problem in traffic when there are multiple sets of lights in a short space and all of them not coordinated. You end up getting a green light at one, only to be faced with a red at the next. Lights that change too fast are another example, especially the intersection near where I live. But light sequences of bike paths are pointless for those people living in locations where there are no bike paths. Not everyone is eager to mix it with cars, and a great deal of the media coverage frightens a lot of people away from using a bike for commuting to work. Which is a shame.

The average person who lives in say Penrith or the other outer suburbs are already probably less likely to ride their bike into work if their work is in the Sydney CBD, they will probably take the train or sit in a traffic jam on the M4, Dobroyd Parade or Victoria Road. The distance alone already deters them.

If we can build all these hugely expensive new road-tunnels that will just become another underground car park, then surely a few shekels can be spared to get some dedicated cycling paths or lanes built that are separate from traffic (so they cannot be blocked by cars parking on them or people walking on them). The people who still want to ride on the road in the traffic can do so, while those who don't want to do that have options as well.

I don't believe that Critical Mass is really making a difference to change peoples perceptions because the car drivers don't want to understand they they are part of the problem. Too many cars carrying just one person is the reason for the jams. More expensive underground two-lane car-parks called motorways won't solve anything.
Last edited by g-boaf on Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Critical Mass

Postby human909 » Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:05 pm

Xplora wrote:I have my opinions about red lights because they are the biggest time waster we face on the road.

I am there with you on this one. My two recent hates in Melbourne are Elgin-Cardigan St and Heidelberg-Westgarth St traffic light installations. Both are absolute time wasters and totally not needed. The left turn turn from Westgarth onto Heidelberg Rd is a joke, I see more cyclists ignore the red light than stop.

g-boaf wrote:Then wear nothing then. :roll: I'd challenge you to commute in normal clothes on a day like Saturday morning in Sydney without getting extremely overheated and sweaty. In very warm and humid weather, the proper cycling gear (jerseys, etc) is much nicer to wear for that reason only.

Challenge accepted and completed. :mrgreen: I have often travelled in normal clothes in hot weather. For two years I was carless and commuted by bike, I haven't EVER worn full Lycra on a commute. (I remember wearing nicks under regular shorts once or twice.)

warthog1 wrote:If you dont want to convey the impression that you are anti lycra, then dont place anti lycra sentiment in bold type and follow it up with a clip that ridicules people who choose to wear lycra on their bike.

I haven't expressed anti lycra sentiment nor have I posted a clip that ridicules people who choose to wear lycra. It seems that no matter how it is explained you refuse to believe. The clip is satire and it is funny, it is not anti Lycra. In was created by a cyclist and his friends who wear Lycra! If you as a cyclist can't see the funny side then it is your loss not mine. In fact I would say that most of the aspects laughed at in the video clip are qualities of the singer himself, if you can't laugh at yourself occasionally then that is kinda sad really.

EDIT: Not surprisingly the creator of 'Performance' is a racer. "Local road racers Robin Moore and Jake Salcone have put together a hilarious music video called Performance that skewers the fashion and behavior of roadies and fixed gear riders".
Last edited by human909 on Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Critical Mass

Postby g-boaf » Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:40 pm

human909 wrote:I expressed anti lycra sentiment nor have I posted a clip that ridicules people who choose to wear lycra. It seems that no matter how it is explained you refuse to believe. The clip is satire and it is funny, it is not anti Lycra. In was created by a cyclist and his friends who wear Lycra! If you as a cyclist can't see the funny side then it is your loss not mine. In fact I would say that most of the aspects laughed at in the video clip are qualities of the singer himself, if you can't laugh at yourself occasionally then that is kinda sad really.

EDIT: Not surprisingly the creator of 'Performance' is a racer. "Local road racers Robin Moore and Jake Salcone have put together a hilarious music video called Performance that skewers the fashion and behavior of roadies and fixed gear riders".


You do realise that not everyone might see it as funny like you do, and they might not appreciate the following ridicule:

human909 wrote:If you as a cyclist can't see the funny side then it is your loss not mine. .... if you can't laugh at yourself occasionally then that is kinda sad really.


Anyhow, it's not my fight, it's between you and the other person. I'll leave you two to battle it out.
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Re: Critical Mass

Postby human909 » Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:58 pm

g-boaf wrote:You do realise that not everyone might see it as funny like you do, and they might not appreciate the following ridicule.

If somebody doesn't see it as funny then that is fine. If they don't appreciate or feel offended by the parody then they have issues and probably not just self-confidence issues.

Personally feel one of the best things that helps break divisions between "tribes" is the ability to laugh at and with each other about stereotypes. I include racism and homophobia in this too. Comedy like Fat Pizza and bro'Town are far better for multiculturalism and diversity that politically correct attitudes.

But we are well off topic now. :D
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Re: Critical Mass

Postby warthog1 » Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:02 pm

human909 wrote:
warthog1 wrote:If you dont want to convey the impression that you are anti lycra, then dont place anti lycra sentiment in bold type and follow it up with a clip that ridicules people who choose to wear lycra on their bike.

I expressed anti lycra sentiment nor have I posted a clip that ridicules people who choose to wear lycra. It seems that no matter how it is explained you refuse to believe. The clip is satire and it is funny, it is not anti Lycra. In was created by a cyclist and his friends who wear Lycra! If you as a cyclist can't see the funny side then it is your loss not mine. In fact I would say that most of the aspects laughed at in the video clip are qualities of the singer himself, if you can't laugh at yourself occasionally then that is kinda sad really.

EDIT: Not surprisingly the creator of 'Performance' is a racer. "Local road racers Robin Moore and Jake Salcone have put together a hilarious music video called Performance that skewers the fashion and behavior of roadies and fixed gear riders".


Had it come from a cyclist who wears lycra not one who expresses in bold type that he doesn't want to join the lycra tribe, I may have found it just puerile, instead of offensive and puerile.
I hear much of that rubbish from non cyclists who have no concept of cycling as a sport, so it is a bit tedious when I hear it on a cycling forum also.
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Re: Critical Mass

Postby warthog1 » Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:05 pm

human909 wrote:If somebody doesn't see it as funny then that is fine. If they don't appreciate or feel offended by the parody then they have issues and probably not just self-confidence issues.


So now you are offering an unqualified psycho-analysis as well. Thanks very much. How much do I owe owe you forall your sage advice?
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Re: Critical Mass

Postby boss » Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:07 pm

:roll:
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Re: Critical Mass

Postby human909 » Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:19 pm

I think the time for me to step out out of this debate has passed. But I'll bite once more.

warthog1 wrote:Had it come from a cyclist who wears lycra not one who expresses in bold type that he doesn't want to join the lycra tribe, I may have found it just puerile, instead of offensive and puerile.
I hear much of that rubbish from non cyclists who have no concept of cycling as a sport, so it is a bit tedious when I hear it on a cycling forum also.

I'm still puzzled why you are so offended and find it tedious. The statement "In fact, I do not want to join the Lycra tribe. I do not like the image." should not be offensive anymore than "I don't want tattoos. I do not like the image". Or "I don't want to drive a Mercedes. I do not like the image." This is not an attack on tattoos or Mercedes or Lycra it is simply a personal preference stated about the image I, myself, want to project.

I have great friends who wear Lycra and have tattoos I don't judge people for it. My father drives a Mercedes, they are great quality cars but few people buy a Mercedes in Australia without at least a slight desire to project an image. But none of those things are images I would choose to project.


And all MY talk about "image" is not because I am obsessed about the image I project. In fact the clothes I wear (nothing special), the car I drive (a reliable Volvo), and numerous other things would suggest that I DON'T care very much about image. But like most humans I do care a bit. I just like to be aware of it. :wink:
Last edited by human909 on Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Critical Mass

Postby Xplora » Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:20 pm

g-boaf wrote:I don't believe that Critical Mass is really making a difference to change peoples perceptions because the car drivers don't want to understand they they are part of the problem. Too many cars carrying just one person is the reason for the jams. More expensive underground two-lane car-parks called motorways won't solve anything.

It is somewhat terrifying to imagine that if you tripled the expense on bike path building, you'd largely solve the problems for bike infrastructure. There are lots of places in the burbs that you can put cycle corridors. Heck, even sprucing up the shoulder would be effective enough in some instances. Putting those giant ripple strips up would be effective at separating traffic, and providing access to the emergency lane. Honestly, how many times is it even needed? :idea:

Anyways, we have to be sensible about traffic. The simple fact is that our roads have been created to handle horse and cart speeds and volumes. The only real solution is to destroy the car dream with high rego costs etc. If you must have a car for work, you'll charge accordingly. They already do it for trucks. Bring the cars with it. Encouraging people to take even 1 trip a fortnight on a bike will change things enormously. The simple fact that traffic eases during school holidays proves that a BIG portion of commutes are not mission critical for families.

I'm fine with Critical Mass, because it highlights a big flaw in our commute system - that peak speed isn't as important as average speed. Bikes just aren't that much slower. I find it embarrassing that the difference is so small. I am sure I can ride to many places quicker than driving in my local area.
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Re: Critical Mass

Postby Philipthelam » Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:25 pm

Looking at this thread, it has highlighted (to me) why drive to work day seems so much better than CM rides. Drive to work day may create a little division but it presents a positive image for cycling, in that there will be less traffic if more people cycle.
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Re: Critical Mass

Postby boss » Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:27 pm

do you mean ride to work?
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Re: Critical Mass

Postby human909 » Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:30 pm

Xplora wrote:The only real solution is to destroy the car dream with high rego costs etc.

High rego cost won't really work unless people are in a situation to totally ditch the car. More fuel tax is the better solution in my opinion and it also has great environmental affects. One of the best solution is of course a congestion charge but this is much harder to implement properly, London has done it though.

Philipthelam wrote:Looking at this thread, it has highlighted (to me) why drive to work day seems so much better than CM rides. Drive to work day may create a little division but it presents a positive image for cycling, in that there will be less traffic if more people cycle.

I agree here. Regarding RIDE to work day... Drive to work day, well unless I see it gain traction (which I doubt it will) then I don't think it works.


(A previous housemate of mine was a commodore driving cyclist hating bigot. He partly made the comments to rile me up but a fair bit the was a lot of genuine annoyance behind his comments. I was shocked when he joined in on ride to work day! The company he kept, the girlfriend (which I introduced to him) and the desire to get drop some weight all contributed to him getting on the bike. I still don't think he owns a bike, but I did have to lend him one for a TRIATHALON!)
Last edited by human909 on Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Critical Mass

Postby g-boaf » Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:34 pm

human909 wrote:One of the best solution is of course a congestion charge but this is much harder to implement properly, London has done it though.


That is absolutely the best option, but it won't happen because it'll be politically difficult to implement. Sydney council couldn't do it without attracting another "get Clover" episode, and the govt wouldn't dare because it'd make them unpopular with their voters who drive into Sydney and clog up the roads. :roll:

Drive to work days where all the people who would normally take non-car based transport to work take their car instead and have some sort of sign indicating their support for it is absolutely a better way than Critical Mass because it makes it totally clear that more cars equals more traffic on the road, less cars equals less traffic.
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Re: Critical Mass

Postby warthog1 » Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:51 pm

human909 wrote:I'm still puzzled why you are so offended and find it tedious. The statement "In fact, I do not want to join the Lycra tribe. I do not like the image." should not be offensive anymore than "I don't want tattoos. I do not like the image". Or "I don't want to drive a Mercedes. I do not like the image." This is not an attack on tattoos or Mercedes or Lycra it is simply a personal preference stated about the image I, myself, want to project.

I have great friends who wear Lycra and have tattoos I don't judge people for it. My father drives a Mercedes, they are great quality cars but few people buy a Mercedes in Australia without at least a slight desire to project an image. But none of those things are images I would choose to project.


And all MY talk about "image" is not because I am obsessed about the image I project. In fact the clothes I wear (nothing special), the car I drive (a reliable Volvo), and numerous other things would suggest that I DON'T care very much about image. But like most humans I do care a bit. I just like to be aware of it. :wink:


I have become progressively more offended by the non-objective, insulting replys as the "debate' has progressed. I have been guilty of this also, however. I should have shut up and clicked away early on in the piece, but I've kind of enjoyed arguing.
I have said why I was offended to begin with several times now and have nothing further to add there. I'll try and shut-up, but cant guarantee anything, except for the period between 4:15 and 5:30 during my lycra clad, sufferfest, strava recorded commute. :D
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Re: Critical Mass

Postby Nobody » Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:33 pm

warthog1 wrote:Sometimes I do but it never matches as I have shredded either tops or bottoms in crashes. I buy what is on special and cheap at the time, I reckon you might approve of that, as I'm not too concerned about image :wink:
Can't complain about cheap. :D

Yes I was being overly judgmental, but mainly for comic effect. I don't want to start a matching team kit "discussion". :oops:

warthog1 wrote:Ah but I've ridden a sprung leather saddle on my wife's bike in jeans a couple of times. Didn't really enjoy it though TBH, so it's not a regular occurence. :P
No surprises there. The leather saddle was probably like a piece of wood (and probably still is). Jeans aren't the first thing that comes to mind for comfortable cyclewear.
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Re: Critical Mass

Postby warthog1 » Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:38 pm

Nobody wrote:
Yes I was being overly judgmental, but mainly for comic effect. I don't want to start a matching team kit "discussion". :oops:


Especially not with me in this thread :oops:

and thanks for trying to break the feedback loop :oops: :)
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Re: Critical Mass

Postby Nobody » Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:40 pm

warthog1 wrote:I have become progressively more offended by the non-objective, insulting replys as the "debate' has progressed. I have been guilty of this also, however. I should have shut up and clicked away early on in the piece, but I've kind of enjoyed arguing.
I have said why I was offended to begin with several times now and have nothing further to add there. I'll try and shut-up, but cant guarantee anything, except for the period between 4:15 and 5:30 during my lycra clad, sufferfest, strava recorded commute. :D
That'll learn ya! :P

I usually only comment in these "discussions" for comic effect. I don't really think anything I post about MHL, CM, Strava or any of the big issues is actually going to change anything in the real world.

warthog1 wrote:...and thanks for trying to break the feedback loop :oops: :)
You're welcome. Happy to help. :D
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Re: Critical Mass

Postby Chuck » Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:30 pm

human909 wrote:I expressed anti lycra sentiment


:o

warthog1 wrote:I have become progressively more offended by the non-objective, insulting replys as the "debate' has progressed. I have been guilty of this also, however. I should have shut up and clicked away early on in the piece, but I've kind of enjoyed arguing.


Contemptuous, condescending, all knowing, self important, it's par for the course with some. You're able to look at yourself and be critical, that reflects well on you imo.

The use of the word tedious was incredibly ironic.
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Re: Critical Mass

Postby wombatK » Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:14 pm

sogood wrote:
il padrone wrote:You know it but can't admit it - CM is not blocking traffic, it is traffic!

And forfeiting the dedicated facilities made available solely for bikes. Yes, only in a democracy...

The dedicated facilities on the Harbour Bridge are a disgrace. The steps at the Northern end are a shocker, and
the steep circuitous approach to the southern end are little better. These dedicated facilities provide a vastly inferior level of service to cyclists and are only dedicated to motorists convenience (eg getting them out of the way). Anyone who has ridden across the bridge on the Spring Cycle will quickly discover how much easier a path is provided for motor-vehicles, and no doubt the CM riders would also experience that.

Maybe CM wouldn't need to exercise their democratic right to protest if there were a more balanced provision of services to support cycling that provided an experience nearer to what motorists enjoy.

Cheers
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Re: Critical Mass

Postby greyhoundtom » Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:23 pm

You are spot on!

If CM specifically targeted those areas where there are no or unsuitable cycling facilities, and only those by riding legally two abreast on the roadway, they would get my vote and if able my support.
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Re: Critical Mass

Postby il padrone » Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:30 pm

greyhoundtom wrote:If CM specifically targeted those areas where there are no or unsuitable cycling facilities, and only those

Ah, well that only leaves 90% of the urban road network wide open.

greyhoundtom wrote:by riding legally two abreast on the roadway, they would get my vote and if able my support.

And the 'protest' value of that would be...... ??

They may as well go ride en-mass on the local sub-standard shared path :roll: Go terrify the pedestrians and dog-poopers.
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
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