"Ignoring red lights is 100% safe"
-
- Posts: 351
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:44 am
Re: "Ignoring red lights is 100% safe"
Postby lump_a_charcoal » Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:53 am
Or is it just me?
-
- Posts: 9810
- Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:48 am
Re: "Ignoring red lights is 100% safe"
Postby human909 » Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:58 am
- AUbicycles
- Site Admin
- Posts: 15589
- Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:14 am
- Location: Sydney & Frankfurt
- Contact:
Re: "Ignoring red lights is 100% safe"
Postby AUbicycles » Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:48 am
- Ross
- Posts: 5742
- Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:53 pm
Re: "Ignoring red lights is 100% safe"
Postby Ross » Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:54 am
I guess this is similar to using illegal recreational drugs. Authorities have been trying with little success over several decades to stamp it out so we should just make them legal...human909 wrote:Exactly. There is a reason why so many cyclists run red lights. Because its harmless!rodneythellama wrote:In the news clip, they do make the point that if so many cyclists are running red lights, then perhaps it's the law which should be changed, not the cyclists. I suppose everyone has already made up their mind whether this is a good point or not. Sorry to drag up that old topic.
-
- Posts: 9810
- Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:48 am
Re: "Ignoring red lights is 100% safe"
Postby human909 » Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:20 am
I have no idea whether you are being sarcastic here or not. As far as drugs go there most certainly is a move towards legalising them. I would agree with this more to help stamp out the tens (hundreds?) of thousands of homicides every year due to the illegal drug trade.Ross wrote:I guess this is similar to using illegal recreational drugs. Authorities have been trying with little success over several decades to stamp it out so we should just make them legal...
Back to red lights. I am not arguing that going through red lights should be legal. (Though the Paris experience certainly is an eye opener.) But a black&white attitude is clearly not constructive.
- Xplora
- Posts: 8272
- Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2010 12:33 am
- Location: TL;DR
Re: "Ignoring red lights is 100% safe"
Postby Xplora » Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:43 am
If that situation is not up for discussion, then I don't know why they are bothering with carbon taxes and welfare and police etc etc... because if that is the best that a dozen allegedly intelligent human beings can manage, then we might as well give up as a species. Any vaguely objective analysis of the situation will result in the assessment that the light is inappropriate, the laws around the light are inappropriate, the sensors are inappropriate, or the people are *&^*^ stupid.
If you are blind and cannot cross without the green man to help, I can understand why you would wait. How many blind people are there in Australia?
If the sensors are inadequate, consider why they haven't improved them already. The cost FAR outweighs the benefits. The fact that our traffic controls don't actually real time anticipate oncoming traffic, so the flow of 50-80kmh is not maintained (eternal green lights) is ridiculous enough.
People are not all stupid so that leaves us with Fix The Laws. The only reason there is a problem is because a set of rules has made it impossible for intelligent people to determine if there is something to worry about.
I would argue that if you cannot trust people to turn across the oncoming traffic, you should install roundabouts, because that removes the possibility of turning across. Red lights and control issues is about human dignity. NOTHING LESS.
-
- Posts: 9810
- Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:48 am
Re: "Ignoring red lights is 100% safe"
Postby human909 » Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:22 am
Unfortunately there is a concerted move (at least in VIC) to replace roundabouts and stop signs with traffic lights.Xplora wrote:I would argue that if you cannot trust people to turn across the oncoming traffic, you should install roundabouts, because that removes the possibility of turning across. Red lights and control issues is about human dignity. NOTHING LESS.
Pedestrians have long since given up paying much attention to these things. As it makes the least sense for pedestrians who also have some of the worse treatment by traffic lights. I would say at least 30% routinely ignore red signals. Next comes bicycles with maybe 10% routinely ignoring red signals.
Our authorities insist that there is a problem, but there is little to no evidence for it. Sure some bicycles and pedestrians do get hit when going against the red but the problem here is stupidity not the fact that they were going against the red. My most recent encounter was a stupid pedestrian who ran against a red light for a tram. He was obscured from view until he was in front of me and I had to to brake considerably in my car. Does anybody really think that stronger enforcement of harmless jaywalking will prevent this type of stupidity?
Oppressing the 99% in order to stop the 1% is not smart governance.
-
- Posts: 1494
- Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:10 pm
- Contact:
Re: "Ignoring red lights is 100% safe"
Postby high_tea » Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:21 pm
-
- Posts: 270
- Joined: Sat May 29, 2010 12:25 pm
Re: "Ignoring red lights is 100% safe"
Postby Undertow » Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:54 pm
They aren't really car-centric. If they were you wouldn't have all the intersections where at least 1 car will run the red every change.high_tea wrote:I can't comment on Melbourne, but here in Bne blatantly car-centric light timings explain a lot of the jaywalking IMO.
-
- Posts: 1494
- Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:10 pm
- Contact:
Re: "Ignoring red lights is 100% safe"
Postby high_tea » Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:38 pm
Which is explained by the fact that some motorists' sense of entitlement knows no bounds. It doesn't mean the timings aren't car-centric; they undoubtedly are.Undertow wrote:They aren't really car-centric. If they were you wouldn't have all the intersections where at least 1 car will run the red every change.high_tea wrote:I can't comment on Melbourne, but here in Bne blatantly car-centric light timings explain a lot of the jaywalking IMO.
-
- Posts: 1358
- Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:58 pm
Re: "Ignoring red lights is 100% safe"
Postby boss » Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:15 am
Clearly no one else took the time to read through your very shallowly thought out rant, because if they did they'd be in stitches too. Never have I come across this sort of trife before. Solid effort champ, you've outdone everyone.Xplora wrote:It truly is embarrassing for us all when you have a dozen cars/bikes/pedestrians all waiting at an intersection in a 50kmh limit area with no traffic for 200m on the green light, all waiting at a red light... why? Because the light said so?
If that situation is not up for discussion, then I don't know why they are bothering with carbon taxes and welfare and police etc etc... because if that is the best that a dozen allegedly intelligent human beings can manage, then we might as well give up as a species. Any vaguely objective analysis of the situation will result in the assessment that the light is inappropriate, the laws around the light are inappropriate, the sensors are inappropriate, or the people are *&^*^ stupid.
If you are blind and cannot cross without the green man to help, I can understand why you would wait. How many blind people are there in Australia?
If the sensors are inadequate, consider why they haven't improved them already. The cost FAR outweighs the benefits. The fact that our traffic controls don't actually real time anticipate oncoming traffic, so the flow of 50-80kmh is not maintained (eternal green lights) is ridiculous enough.
People are not all stupid so that leaves us with Fix The Laws. The only reason there is a problem is because a set of rules has made it impossible for intelligent people to determine if there is something to worry about.
I would argue that if you cannot trust people to turn across the oncoming traffic, you should install roundabouts, because that removes the possibility of turning across. Red lights and control issues is about human dignity. NOTHING LESS.
- greyhoundtom
- Posts: 3023
- Joined: Sun May 31, 2009 6:28 am
- Location: Wherever the sun is shining
- Contact:
Re: "Ignoring red lights is 100% safe"
Postby greyhoundtom » Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:51 am
Are wide awake
Are feeling clear headed
Don’t suffer from any form of depression
Have no problems in your personal or work life you are thinking about
Are not hung over
Are not feeling tired
Are not in pain
Are not feeling exuberantly happy
It is not raining
It is not twilight
You don’t suffer a handicap that stops you from breaking into a fast sprint
Have 20/20 vision
Bugger......... by my reckoning it would only be safe for about 2% of the population at any given time to cross against the red light.
- Alien27
- Posts: 252
- Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:59 pm
- Location: Sydney
Re: "Ignoring red lights is 100% safe"
Postby Alien27 » Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:15 am
I do see "Ignoring red lights is 100% safe" as being a dangerous argument, it is one that we need to be very cautious about pursuing. Clearly Ignoring red lights is not 100% safe and the last thing we need is the same argument to be picked up and run by the car lobby.
- Xplora
- Posts: 8272
- Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2010 12:33 am
- Location: TL;DR
Re: "Ignoring red lights is 100% safe"
Postby Xplora » Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:42 am
to even be allowed behind the wheel of a car in the first place.greyhoundtom wrote:it would only be safe for about 2% of the population at any given time
Jim, I'm sad you don't see an inherent dignity in humanity, because that is my point. Subjecting yourself to a mindless sign even in conditions of absolute safety is degrading to your dignity. The signs are there to help you and your fellow man. They don't stop accidents. You stop accidents. And you are capable of more than just mindless sign slavery.
-
- Posts: 9810
- Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:48 am
Re: "Ignoring red lights is 100% safe"
Postby human909 » Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:05 am
I think I have managed to safely cross against a red light while covering at least nine of 75% things at the same time!! Your claim is absurd.greyhoundtom wrote:Is it safe to cross against a red light? Of course it is.........but only if you;
Are wide awake
Are feeling clear headed
Don’t suffer from any form of depression
Have no problems in your personal or work life you are thinking about
Are not hung over
Are not feeling tired
Are not in pain
Are not feeling exuberantly happy
It is not raining
It is not twilight
You don’t suffer a handicap that stops you from breaking into a fast sprint
Have 20/20 vision
Bugger......... by my reckoning it would only be safe for about 2% of the population at any given time to cross against the red light.
-
- Posts: 1358
- Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:58 pm
Re: "Ignoring red lights is 100% safe"
Postby boss » Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:32 am
Have you ever seen what happens when traffic lights go out on a major arterial road during peak hour?Xplora wrote:to even be allowed behind the wheel of a car in the first place.greyhoundtom wrote:it would only be safe for about 2% of the population at any given time
Jim, I'm sad you don't see an inherent dignity in humanity, because that is my point. Subjecting yourself to a mindless sign even in conditions of absolute safety is degrading to your dignity. The signs are there to help you and your fellow man. They don't stop accidents. You stop accidents. And you are capable of more than just mindless sign slavery.
Peak hour flow wins.
Traffic lights turn a survival of the fittest into a more equitable flow of traffic. Sure, it is at the expense of our autonomy but I do not see it as impinging on my dignity. I see it as a cost of doing business on the road.
You just take it a bridge to far into make believe la la land, and it's laughable from where I sit.
If nothing else, your post has served to brighten the start of an already awesome Friday.
(If you do a lot of driving in the middle of the night and early hours of the morn when there are SFA road users, then maybe I could see where you're coming from. But that isn't what you've alluded to, you seem to suggest that traffic lights serve no common good for society, and you certainly say that this common good is not in aggregate greater than the dignity that we lose by waiting for a few minutes. You also assume, as GHT made a point of, that all road users are model drivers and driving at peak condition which isn't what we see in practice. In essence, your opinion is short sighted and, while you're entitled to having a short sighted opinion, it's laughable for those of us who consider are able to consider a situation from multiple points of view.)
- greyhoundtom
- Posts: 3023
- Joined: Sun May 31, 2009 6:28 am
- Location: Wherever the sun is shining
- Contact:
Re: "Ignoring red lights is 100% safe"
Postby greyhoundtom » Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:02 am
It may be absurd to you, but there are far too many road users that are suffering some condition that may temporarily affect their judgment.human909 wrote: I think I have managed to safely cross against a red light while covering at least nine of 75% things at the same time!! Your claim is absurd.
Therefore I'm happy to partially rely on red lights to at least keep some of them in line.........happy to wait for a green light.....double checking to make sure some idiot is not blasting through the red light facing them, and then safely cross the road.
-
- Posts: 323
- Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:10 pm
Re: "Ignoring red lights is 100% safe"
Postby LM324 » Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:19 am
- Mulger bill
- Super Mod
- Posts: 29060
- Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 2:41 pm
- Location: Sunbury Vic
Re: "Ignoring red lights is 100% safe"
Postby Mulger bill » Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:33 am
You might...Philipthelam wrote:But if the intersection is empty and you trigger the sensor, won't the lights change anyway?
If the sensor is calibrated to pick up bicycles.
If you know where to position the bike to ensure detection.
If you can actually see where to position the bike because the last lot of roadbuilders installed the loops during construction instead of the cut and lay approach.
There's a few I come across in the CBD that absolutely refuse to acknoweledge my existence (I know how and where to place the bike, Google it). Emails to the appropriate authorities have had form letter replies that "The matter is under investigation". It is at these intersections that I will, with great care trundle through on the red-eventually.
NOTE- I didn't say "RUN". Anybody of any the road using tribes who runs a red needs a slappin'.
Anybody feeling sanctimonious enough to call me an outlaw or idiot and that shooting is the only way to save my soul may leave this thread now. Not Interested.
London Boy 29/12/2011
- JustJames
- Posts: 501
- Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:50 am
Re: "Ignoring red lights is 100% safe"
Postby JustJames » Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:22 am
Geez, MB, you're a moderator on here and yet you continually run red lights!Mulger bill wrote: You might...
If the sensor is calibrated to pick up bicycles.
If you know where to position the bike to ensure detection.
If you can actually see where to position the bike because the last lot of roadbuilders installed the loops during construction instead of the cut and lay approach.
There's a few I come across in the CBD that absolutely refuse to acknoweledge my existence (I know how and where to place the bike, Google it). Emails to the appropriate authorities have had form letter replies that "The matter is under investigation". It is at these intersections that I will, with great care trundle through on the red-eventually.
NOTE- I didn't say "RUN". Anybody of any the road using tribes who runs a red needs a slappin'.
Anybody feeling sanctimonious enough to call me an outlaw or idiot and that shooting is the only way to save my soul may leave this thread now. Not Interested.
Won't somebody think of the little kiddies?
http://pedallingcharm.wordpress.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
-
- Posts: 1494
- Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:10 pm
- Contact:
Re: "Ignoring red lights is 100% safe"
Postby high_tea » Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:33 am
-
- Posts: 323
- Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:10 pm
Re: "Ignoring red lights is 100% safe"
Postby LM324 » Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:08 pm
why does it say this?
Are they saying that if you run a red light on car (and crash) it is more life threatening because two people/ parties will die as opposed to say runing a red light on a bike (and getting hit) where only the rider dies?Ignoring a red light as a car driver can be expensive, obviously because it can be life threatening.
-
- Posts: 1791
- Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:25 pm
Re: "Ignoring red lights is 100% safe"
Postby wellington_street » Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:10 pm
Nothing is 100% safe when there's a human element involved.
- m@
- Posts: 5112
- Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:20 pm
- Location: Wurundjeri Country
- Contact:
Re: "Ignoring red lights is 100% safe"
Postby m@ » Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:08 pm
Spot on—and when I watch the local commuter types who typically run reds hereabouts, it's done in a way that's far from safe; i.e. wobble across through traffic with no thought to the light pattern, whether oncoming right-turners or traffic entering via a slip lane has a green light etc. Suicide in slow motion.wellington_street wrote:I cringe when I read "100% safe"
Nothing is 100% safe when there's a human element involved.
I do like the 'left turn on red' signs (when the left lane isn't blocked by a car going straight), would like to see that become a blanket rule for bikes.
-
- Posts: 1358
- Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:58 pm
Re: "Ignoring red lights is 100% safe"
Postby boss » Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:21 pm
I assumed that was a poor translation.Philipthelam wrote:back to the article
why does it say this?
Are they saying that if you run a red light on car (and crash) it is more life threatening because two people/ parties will die as opposed to say runing a red light on a bike (and getting hit) where only the rider dies?Ignoring a red light as a car driver can be expensive, obviously because it can be life threatening.
Return to “General Cycling Discussion”
- General Australian Cycling Topics
- Info / announcements
- Buying a bike / parts
- General Cycling Discussion
- The Bike Shed
- Cycling Health
- Cycling Safety and Advocacy
- Women's Cycling
- Bike & Gear Reviews
- Cycling Trade
- Stolen Bikes
- Bicycle FAQs
- The Market Place
- Member to Member Bike and Gear Sales
- Want to Buy, Group Buy, Swap
- My Bikes or Gear Elsewhere
- Serious Biking
- Audax / Randonneuring
- Retro biking
- Commuting
- MTB
- Recumbents
- Fixed Gear/ Single Speed
- Track
- Electric Bicycles
- Cyclocross and Gravel Grinding
- Dragsters / Lowriders / Cruisers
- Children's Bikes
- Cargo Bikes and Utility Cycling
- Road Racing
- Road Biking
- Training
- Time Trial
- Triathlon
- International and National Tours and Events
- Cycle Touring
- Touring Australia
- Touring Overseas
- Touring Bikes and Equipment
- Australia
- Western Australia
- New South Wales
- Queensland
- South Australia
- Victoria
- ACT
- Tasmania
- Northern Territory
- Country & Regional
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: WyvernRH
- All times are UTC+10:00
- Top
- Delete cookies
About the Australian Cycling Forums
The Australian Cycling Forums is a welcoming community where you can ask questions and talk about the type of bikes and cycling topics you like.
Bicycles Network Australia
Forum Information
Connect with BNA
This website uses affiliate links to retail platforms including ebay, amazon, proviz and ribble.