There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

open topic, for anything cycling related.

Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby winstonw » Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:08 pm

il padrone wrote:A misguided view of the Australian external sector. Australia has run current account deficits for many decades, probably since before Federation. It is immaterial to the economic performance overall (well actually it is often of benefit). As long as we can service the debts and investment income payments resulting (through an increased economy and greater export activity), then a CAD is beneficial in increasing our national living standards. The general level that is desirable is below 5% of GDP.


pfft....the same superficial, ill informed justification that is dragged out every time someone attacks the CAD.
You want to read deeper on the matter if you want better cycling infrastructure, upholding of the law, free health care, etc, etc.
Start with an understanding of how the Australian median house price blew out to many multiples of other OECD nations....and pushed the primary account so high it offset healthy (mainly mining) trade surpluses for years.

The reason we persist with a CAD in the middle of a once in a lifetime mining boom, is because we're too silly to create a trade surplus that covers the interest bill on foreign borrowings.
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by BNA » Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:21 pm

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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby greyhoundtom » Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:21 pm

Bugger........what was this topic about again?

Oh yeah ........ road rage wasn't ........ and don’t get me started on the cost of housing :evil:
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby Mulger bill » Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:24 pm

:shock: Did someone mention p-p-p-penguins?
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby il padrone » Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:36 pm

Where's my tea?
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby winstonw » Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:43 pm

Mulger bill wrote::shock: Did someone mention p-p-p-penguins?


I take it your view is a growing 'culture' of road rage has nothing to do with underservicing by law enforcers. You'll have to flesh that idea out for me.
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby Mulger bill » Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:08 pm

I do know that the likelihood of generalised bad behaviour(define that how you will) seems to be lesser in those areas where the perceived risk of detection is low, hence few smokeboxers speed but many fail to indicate these days.
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby high_tea » Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:14 pm

Mulger bill wrote:I do know that the likelihood of generalised bad behaviour(define that how you will) seems to be lesser in those areas where the perceived risk of detection is low, hence few smokeboxers speed but many fail to indicate these days.


Among other things, it's easier to make out a speeding offence. The Crown gets a lot of help from deeming provisions. So too with DUI and drug possession offences. This distorts enforcement priorities, especially given the, um, less than stellar level of legal knowledge exhibited by certain police officers, along with the perceived (and actual) risk of detection.
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby greyhoundtom » Sat Dec 22, 2012 3:40 am

Road Rage: Violent behaviour exhibited by drivers in traffic, often as a manifestation of stress

It is still my belief that the perceived increase in “road rage” incidents is caused more by increased stress levels amongst the general population, rather than due to a lack of police presence.

Those that are under stress due to personal, financial, and or work related problems are more likely to react aggressively in response to what would normally be considered minor provocations.

In addition, when isolated in a vehicle, a cocoon if you like, people will react far differently to any provocation than to the same provocation whilst being amongst a group of their peers.

There are also research results that indicate that the inhaling of motor vehicle fumes can significantly increases aggression amongst susceptible individuals.

There again there are those that are just nutters :roll:
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby il padrone » Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:42 am

Plus those on drugs of various types.
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby DentedHead » Sat Dec 22, 2012 3:37 pm

Ross wrote:
DentedHead wrote:Yet a surprising number of people believe we have no right or ability to police ourselves:

From the Moron Motorist thread regarding my suggested, minor vigilante-ism...
Ross wrote:There is NO excuse ANYTIME for vigilante justice.


Dent.


And I stand by that comment too. It makes the retaliator (is that a word?) as bad as the offender.
The police force and the court system have finite resources. They simply haven't got the resources to deal with every person that takes up 2 parking spaces or happens to drive too close to a cyclist. Perhaps the police should start investigating thse sort of offences more seriously and not worry about armed robberies, assaults and murders. Or maybe just sub-contract the justice of the minor offences such as parking to people like Dent who can be the judge, jury and executioner - multitasking, doing the job of 3 people - though the money saved in wages would probably be spent on thickshakes and black textas instead...


Or maybe we should realize that non-violent, non-harmful retaliation IS a just consequence for complete disregard for your fellow man. As others have stated, if the state tells us we cannot deal with these issues ourselves, then the state had better ACTUALLY do it. If it doesn't, it has no right to prohibit us. I retracted my initial knee-jerk reaction to damage the vehicle, as that would indeed have made me as bad as the offender. Worse, actually, as the offender in this case had harmed nothing. Making it clear that that kind of behaviour is not acceptable through non-violent/non-damaging means, such as a thick-shake/marker message is a totally different kettle of fish. People do the kind of inconsiderate crap like occupy two car parks simply because they believe, 1) they are entitled to, and 2) no one will call them on it. While trying to change their perception of entitlement is pointless, we CAN at least call them on their crap.

You are absolutely right that the police have limited resources, and I would much prefer they use those resources on more pressing issues, and simply allow the public to deal with the minor issues like simple douche-baggery ourselves.


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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby greyhoundtom » Sat Dec 22, 2012 3:46 pm

DentedHead wrote:You are absolutely right that the police have limited resources, and I would much prefer they use those resources on more pressing issues, and simply allow the public to deal with the minor issues like simple douche-baggery ourselves.Dent.

The thin edge of the wedge :roll: Self-righteousness :roll:
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby boss » Sat Dec 22, 2012 4:02 pm

greyhoundtom wrote:
DentedHead wrote:You are absolutely right that the police have limited resources, and I would much prefer they use those resources on more pressing issues, and simply allow the public to deal with the minor issues like simple douche-baggery ourselves.Dent.

The thin edge of the wedge :roll: Self-righteousness :roll:


Very slippery slope that youre arguing on Dent. Very slippery.

It's very easy to become emotionally involved in a situation and overreact. That's why we have 'impartial' police, courts, etc

If police do not have the resources to deal with minor issues, and those issues are violations of the law, then we (as tax payers) need to decide if the law needs to be changed or if we need to allocate more resources to the cops and courts (pay more tax). Simple as that.

We all want to have our cake and eat it too.
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby il padrone » Sat Dec 22, 2012 4:11 pm

DentedHead wrote:Or maybe we should realize that non-violent, non-harmful retaliation.....

.........Making it clear that that kind of behaviour is not acceptable through non-violent/non-damaging means, such as a thick-shake/marker message

Fascinated by this definition. So it's OK if I drop a thickshake down the air intake vents of your car? Non-harmful?

Permanent marker scrawled over your windscreen? Non-harmful.... when you need to drive your elderly mum to the hospital??
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby winstonw » Sat Dec 22, 2012 4:36 pm

jimboss wrote:If police do not have the resources to deal with minor issues, and those issues are violations of the law, then we (as tax payers) need to decide if the law needs to be changed or if we need to allocate more resources to the cops and courts (pay more tax). Simple as that.

We all want to have our cake and eat it too.


Jimboss, I think DentedHead has a good point.
If you look at the social history of most civilizations, tribal and community elders were the final arbiters of justice.
There's no reason why suitable retirees could not make a contribution towards social order and the delving out of justice, for a fraction of the cost of judges, lawyers, and police. We obviously have an issue maintaining law and order in this day and age. In fact we have issues with the delivery of most tax funded services, in that the service is not living up to the contracted promise.

We need less centralized regulation and usurpation of power and dollars, and more community control. If it is good enough for Aboriginal communities to self manage maintenance of law and order, then it is good enough for the rest of us. I think you'd find some communities would end up maintaining law and order better, and more people would gravitate to those communities. In that sense, natural selection and a free market would quickly find more efficient and effective means of maintaining law and order. I know if a local council in Australia decided to emulate Dutch laws relative to cycling and road use, I'd be one of the first to seriously consider moving there.

I think a lot of Australia's problems are due to progressive attitudes. There's been a blatant blurring of what is best re upbringing, ethics, law enforcement, etc, etc. It's a mistake to hog tie a whole nation to experimenting with this stuff. Why not let progressives do their experiments in individual LGAs. And leave room for those who don't buy into their ideals the freedom to hold to alternative values.
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby il padrone » Sat Dec 22, 2012 4:46 pm

winstonw wrote:tribal and community elders were the final arbiters of justice.....

.....delving out of justice, for a fraction of the cost of judges, lawyers, and police.

Judges and magistrates essentially are the elders of our society (those with most experience in the legal system we use). They are the final arbiters of the justice sstem. Lawyers however are simply agents for the accused or the state, and police are public servants, employed to enforce the law.

So I don't see how there is really too much difference - just a matter of scale. Traditional societies may have dealt with rules and justice for a few hundred people. Our judges deal with laws for millions.
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby winstonw » Sat Dec 22, 2012 4:56 pm

il padrone wrote:Judges and magistrates essentially are the elders of our society (those with most experience in the legal system we use). They are the final arbiters of the justice sstem. Lawyers however are simply agents for the accused or the state, and police are public servants, employed to enforce the law.

So I don't see how there is really too much difference - just a matter of scale. Traditional societies may have dealt with rules and justice for a few hundred people. Our judges deal with laws for millions.


Scale is the crux of the problem. It's a ridiculous scenario, where elites have determined the majority of elders are incompetent in understanding what is best for society, and that only a handful of highly paid are worthy. It is absurd that conflict within society requires a dearth of highly paid judges to intervene.

Tibet survived for aeons with local monks resolving conflict in local communities. It worked because community members respected this process. The problem we have now is progressive thought has encouraged the erosion of respect for the laws and elders of the land, on the basis there is some alternative ideal. However, the ideal hasn't manifested. It remains a fantasy in the heads of progressive elites.
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby DentedHead » Sat Dec 22, 2012 5:00 pm

greyhoundtom wrote:The thin edge of the wedge :roll: Self-righteousness :roll:


Why? I'm not suggesting I should be the only judge here, but everyone should be. I'm also not immune to the odd bout of selfishness, and would expect to have my own selfishness called out too.

il padrone wrote:
DentedHead wrote:Or maybe we should realize that non-violent, non-harmful retaliation.....
.........Making it clear that that kind of behaviour is not acceptable through non-violent/non-damaging means, such as a thick-shake/marker message


Fascinated by this definition. So it's OK if I drop a thickshake down the air intake vents of your car? Non-harmful?
Permanent marker scrawled over your windscreen? Non-harmful.... when you need to drive your elderly mum to the hospital??


Well, shake in the air intake vent would probably affect the performance of the car, so that would be damaging.
Embarrassing message in front of your mum? Ego-damaging maybe, but hardly anything more. I've seen plenty of car dealership test drives with marker across the windscreen. I'm not talking view-obscuring here.

jimboss wrote:Very slippery slope that youre arguing on Dent. Very slippery.
It's very easy to become emotionally involved in a situation and overreact. That's why we have 'impartial' police, courts, etc


True, and in all honesty, it's also easy to sit here and talk about what I'd like to do. In reality, I'd likely do the same as everyone else. Rant to myself maybe, and move along. I think this is possibly the best counter to my argument. I've no idea how to keep emotions out of it. I can typically keep my emotions in check, but "typically" is not "always".

jimboss wrote:If police do not have the resources to deal with minor issues, and those issues are violations of the law, then we (as tax payers) need to decide if the law needs to be changed or if we need to allocate more resources to the cops and courts (pay more tax). Simple as that.


Here I disagree. Something as minor as crappy parking needn't be a violation of the law, but neither should it be without minor consequence. We don't need every aspect of our lives policed, but if arrogance and selfishness are simply ignored or tolerated, it becomes acceptable. Is it really that hard to call someone on their BS without harm?


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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby il padrone » Sat Dec 22, 2012 5:15 pm

winstonw wrote:Tibet survived for aeons with local monks resolving conflict in local communities. It worked because community members respected this process.

You are still talking about a society operating on a very different scale - both population and societal outlook.

In 2009 the Tibetan population was 2.91 million. The ethnic Tibetans, comprising 92.8% of the population



BTW, read the book "Buckley's Hope". The administration of tribal justice by the elders was far from peaceable and far from effective. Buckley was horrified by the abject and regular violence in the society.
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby high_tea » Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:57 pm

winstonw wrote:
il padrone wrote:Judges and magistrates essentially are the elders of our society (those with most experience in the legal system we use). They are the final arbiters of the justice sstem. Lawyers however are simply agents for the accused or the state, and police are public servants, employed to enforce the law.

So I don't see how there is really too much difference - just a matter of scale. Traditional societies may have dealt with rules and justice for a few hundred people. Our judges deal with laws for millions.


Scale is the crux of the problem. It's a ridiculous scenario, where elites have determined the majority of elders are incompetent in understanding what is best for society, and that only a handful of highly paid are worthy. It is absurd that conflict within society requires a dearth of highly paid judges to intervene.

Tibet survived for aeons with local monks resolving conflict in local communities. It worked because community members respected this process. The problem we have now is progressive thought has encouraged the erosion of respect for the laws and elders of the land, on the basis there is some alternative ideal. However, the ideal hasn't manifested. It remains a fantasy in the heads of progressive elites.


The alternative ideal is called, wait for it, the rule of law. The system you describe didn't work. People came up with things like Magna Carta, the Bill of Rights and so on precisely because it didn't work. Among other things, it doesn't scale worth a tinker's cuss. For a tribe of a couple of hundred people, or a couple of thousand, maybe. For a city of two million people, forget it. I, for one, think that being subject to a different legal system depending on the suburb I was in would be a very bad thing, so let me reject in advance the argument of "break it down to local communities". Nobody contends that the rule of law is perfect, only that the alternatives are far, far worse. I, and many others, do contend that written laws are better than the caprices of elders, kings, warlords, call them what you will.

The problem is poor enforcement. The solution is better enforcement, or possibly better laws.
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby boss » Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:12 pm

A post about a fairly serious road rage incident turns into hand wringing. Ah, the internets.
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby winstonw » Sat Dec 22, 2012 8:05 pm

high_tea wrote:The problem is poor enforcement. The solution is better enforcement, or possibly better laws.


The problem is poor enforcement, because scaling that doesn't work either.
And whose hands is the power scaled into? elites who too often are disconnected from what is happening on the frontline.
The reason they want to be elites is to escape the Madding Crowd because they detest it - There's no Gandhi in Western political history.

I say too much power has been taken away from local community, and as many university qualified idle elites jam themselves into the process to claim a piece of the pie. The point is, your system isn't working either high_tea. Look at what has happened before when elites skim the kitty and don't deliver what they set out to.

And why isn't it working? because elites don't really give a toss about cyclists getting knocked off bikes. All they care about is the integrity of the 'system'.
The system has claimed superiority and sanctity over the results it was born to deliver. It is the same elitist hypocrisy that has manifested time and again by the idle and arrogant...why? because power is sought by those who want power for power's and wealth's sake, especially when there's no underlying belief system based in compassion and humility a la Gandhi or Tibetan Buddhism.

Tibet's system worked well because their monks weren't interested in material wealth, and compassion is an inherent part of their beliefs.
The Magna Carta and its predecessor the Charter of Liberties have nothing in common with the Tibetan example.

Australia's problem today is too many subjects are cynical about rule of law...they are cynical about everything...they believe in nothing...and live for now with nary a thought for tomorrow. why should they when do gooders overly shield them from the consequences of poor decisions?
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby find_bruce » Sat Dec 22, 2012 8:06 pm

High tea, I always thought of you as leaned in the law, but once you start referring to Magna Carta, I wonder if you wear an alfoil hat :wink:

Which makes the fact that I agree with the point you are making rather disturbing :D
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby il padrone » Sat Dec 22, 2012 8:13 pm

winstonw wrote: especially when there's no underlying belief system based in compassion and humility a la Gandhi or Tibetan Buddhism.

A word or two about the beauties of the Buddha and Gandhi....... Sri Lanka :roll:


As for Tibetan harmony and the laws administered by monks.... read a bit.

winstonw wrote:Tibet's system worked well because their monks weren't interested in material wealth, and compassion is an inherent part of their beliefs.



Young Tibetan boys were regularly taken from their peasant families and brought into the monasteries to be trained as monks. Once there, they were bonded for life. Tashì-Tsering, a monk, reports that it was common for peasant children to be sexually mistreated in the monasteries. He himself was a victim of repeated rape, beginning at age nine. 14 The monastic estates also conscripted children for lifelong servitude as domestics, dance performers, and soldiers.

Drepung monastery was one of the biggest landowners in the world, with its 185 manors, 25,000 serfs, 300 great pastures, and 16,000 herdsmen. The wealth of the monasteries rested in the hands of small numbers of high-ranking lamas. Most ordinary monks lived modestly and had no direct access to great wealth. The Dalai Lama himself “lived richly in the 1000-room, 14-story Potala Palace.”

Tibetan feudalism was cloaked in Buddhism, but the two are not to be equated. In reality, old Tibet was not a Paradise Lost. It was a retrograde repressive theocracy of extreme privilege and poverty, a long way from Shangri-La.
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby Xplora » Sat Dec 22, 2012 8:36 pm

I find it interesting that a few people have come out against Dent's proposal, yet seem to believe that their beliefs related to impotent police reports aren't "hand in hand" related to it? :idea:

high_tea, you do realise that Magna Carta and the Bill of Rights simply replaced one Rule of Law with another? I would argue that the Bill of Rights is precisely why America is an absolute basketcase that can't regulate guns effectlvely or with any gusto despite THOUSANDS of deaths each year. I would argue that modern representative democracy is choking to death because the Parliament doesn't represent the interests of the community any more than the courts do. We can talk about how they are the best we have, but there is no place to defend the point about retaliation etc as if the situation we have is acceptable. Society doesn't work unless it is regulated in SOME sense, and that means discipline. Either the courts and cops deal with it, or they accept that people will handle it themselves (for good or bad).
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby winstonw » Sat Dec 22, 2012 8:42 pm

il padrone wrote:A word or two about the beauties of the Buddha and Gandhi....... Sri Lanka :roll:


Deliberate or just ignorance based obfuscation again Il padrone.
As for yellow vs red hat Tibetan Buddhism, read more deeply and widely, than the view of 'one' monk. There's always some Communist funded or otherwise subversive interpretation of the history of a nation that is the target of an oppressor's tyranny. Whose take on Australian history do you buy into? the traditional? or more recent socialist driven re-interpretations?
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