Online tax to recover GST

open topic, for anything cycling related.

Re: Online tax to recover GST

Postby boss » Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:37 pm

You're the one that's got to live with it :roll:
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Re: Online tax to recover GST

Postby twizzle » Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:43 pm

I just keep thinking of all those golden years from the mid 90's when the liberals paid off the Govt. debt, cleared the bond market and handed out tax cuts... instead of investing in the future. An insufficient tax base, both major parties incapable of making decisions for the good of the country, and business pushing the Govt to import over 200,000 people per year when the infrastructure doesn't exist to support them in the major cities where they want to migrate to.


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Re: Online tax to recover GST

Postby boss » Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:55 pm

twizzle wrote:I just keep thinking of all those golden years from the mid 90's when the liberals paid off the Govt. debt, cleared the bond market and handed out tax cuts... instead of investing in the future. An insufficient tax base, both major parties incapable of making decisions for the good of the country, and business pushing the Govt to import over 200,000 people per year when the infrastructure doesn't exist to support them in the major cities where they want to migrate to.


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Re: Online tax to recover GST

Postby il padrone » Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:58 pm

jimboss wrote:It's also worth noting that inflation was worse under the previous government, say what you want about its accuracy, it used the same methodology, so inflation was worse then than it is now.

Inflation was really bad in 1987, in 1982, in 1975..... to levels that make complaining about 2% inflation today look astronomically hilarious :roll:

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Re: Online tax to recover GST

Postby Mulger bill » Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:46 pm

Toes are veeery close to a couple of lines here people...

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Re: Online tax to recover GST

Postby birdbrain » Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:14 pm

twizzle wrote:
I just keep thinking of all those golden years from the mid 90's when the liberals paid off the Govt. debt, cleared the bond market and handed out tax cuts... instead of investing in the future. An insufficient tax base, both major parties incapable of making decisions for the good of the country, and business pushing the Govt to import over 200,000 people per year when the infrastructure doesn't exist to support them in the major cities where they want to migrate to.



I just keep thinking of the 70's and 80's when I could'nt give a stuff.

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Fresh fruit and vegetables
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Consumer credit charges
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* Local government rates and charges
* Postal and telephone services
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* Health services and pharmaceuticals
* Education and childcare
Meat and seafood
* Tobacco and alcohol
Clothing
Holiday travel and accommodation
Other food
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Other household equipment and operation
Other transportation
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Silly me I forgot the price of banana's dropped. On that list I would guess that prices on * 50% or more of the items increased by almost 10%. What exactly is other food, housing etc.....?
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Re: Online tax to recover GST

Postby Xplora » Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:43 am

Another version of this particular bent is that the social and economic conditions available to our elderly have been utterly destroyed in the last 30 years, and it's a bit rich to say "you should have prepared yourself better" when the taxation and welfare regimes in place were such that it would have been unreasonable to assume they would do differently. I have spoken to many little old ladies who have half a million bucks on term deposit that helps fund their retirement. There is NO WAY an average 80 year old woman with that cash has earnt that money themselves. They grew up in a generation where the man went to work and the woman looked after the house. Have these little old ladies done as you suggest, jimb, and provided for their future? Or just a sensible approach to money, and having the good fortune of marrying well?

To assume that GHT has ever had the capacity to save that amount of cash as an immigrant is simply daft. His generation focussed on paying bills and paying down a mortgage if they were lucky. They assumed that because the pension was around for their grandparents, that it would be sufficient to look after them (ESPECIALLY since they owned their home outright, and you'll note that owning your own home isn't penalised in the old age pension rules). After all, GHT has paid a LOT of money in tax, and it's fair to see some dividend for that tax in his retirement.

I'm one of the most savage conservatives around when it comes to welfare and its impacts, but when it comes to things like the age pension, you have to go far beyond the standard ideology - it is simply obscene to imply that a bloke like GHT who would have flogged himself to pay for his home (with the huge interest rates of yesteryear), and was sold a line about 2-3% inflation and the longevity of the age pension and the value of bricks and mortar and the importance of paying your taxes etc etc should have done more to prepare for retirement. It requires a complete change to the basis of our culture in Australia. I agree that this culture change is certainly in place and the transition is happening, but there is 10-20 years worth of our elderly that will suffer just like GHT is while our boomers get ready to suck it up and look after themselves.

Have a heart, even if you can't have a clue about this. I know for certain that I wont be relying on handouts (first home owners grant for example) to get by.
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Re: Online tax to recover GST

Postby twizzle » Mon Dec 31, 2012 7:38 am

And just wait till people realize how many govt/industry super schemes don't have the funds to cover their obligations.

The organization I currently work for uses the value of "assets" to balance the super obligation. It values in-house written software at many millions of dollars - software with no sales market is an asset which cannot be realised, therefore has no real value!

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Re: Online tax to recover GST

Postby skull » Mon Dec 31, 2012 7:51 am

twizzle wrote:And just wait till people realize how many govt/industry super schemes don't have the funds to cover their obligations.


I am concerned about that with my military super. The govt has spent the money that was MSBS, by the time most of us come up to the age to access it I really doubt that they have the cash to pay it.
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Re: Online tax to recover GST

Postby il padrone » Mon Dec 31, 2012 7:59 am

twizzle wrote:software with no sales market is an asset which cannot be realised, therefore has no real value!

Software that is functional will have a productive value in terms of the income that it helps to generate.
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Re: Online tax to recover GST

Postby Mike Ayling » Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:05 am

Xplora wrote:
Have a heart, even if you can't have a clue about this. I know for certain that I wont be relying on handouts (first home owners grant for example) to get by.


I admire your principles but are you aware that the first home owners grant is factored in to property prices by many sellers so unless you are a hard negotiator and are able to knock 10 to 15K off the price or whatever the grant is ATM then you should take the grant.

Mike (who does not have an investment advisor's licence)
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Re: Online tax to recover GST

Postby birdbrain » Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:57 pm

I imagine that similar conversations will occur in 20 years time when that new generation have to pay the debts that the current government have accumulated. I'll make a prediction. If Labor is returned at the next election all those capitalists who own their homes will not qualify for a pension but will have to reverse mortgage it and live off the proceeds.

What was this topic about! Online tax to recover GST. Well stuff them we already pay enough taxes and if the government wants more revenue they can get it elsewhere.
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Re: Online tax to recover GST

Postby skull » Mon Dec 31, 2012 2:04 pm

birdbrain wrote: if the government wants more revenue they can get it elsewhere.


Oh don't worry they are doing that too.
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Re: Online tax to recover GST

Postby twizzle » Mon Dec 31, 2012 5:20 pm

il padrone wrote:
twizzle wrote:software with no sales market is an asset which cannot be realised, therefore has no real value!

Software that is functional will have a productive value in terms of the income that it helps to generate.

And how do you convert that into pension payments?


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Re: Online tax to recover GST

Postby il padrone » Mon Dec 31, 2012 5:34 pm

twizzle wrote:
il padrone wrote:
twizzle wrote:software with no sales market is an asset which cannot be realised, therefore has no real value!

Software that is functional will have a productive value in terms of the income that it helps to generate.

And how do you convert that into pension payments?

A bit of basic macro-econiomic theory: GDP = C + I + G1 + G2 + X - M. This is the productive measure of national income. Software developemnt is going to be in there as part of I (business investment spending), eventually contributing to future increased C (consumption spending). The contribution to pension payments comes about through the taxation system - tax revenue is redistributed as a transfer payment to the needy (aka pensioners).

[end economics 101]
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Re: Online tax to recover GST

Postby boss » Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:39 pm

birdbrain wrote:I imagine that similar conversations will occur in 20 years time when that new generation have to pay the debts that the current government have accumulated. I'll make a prediction. If Labor is returned at the next election all those capitalists who own their homes will not qualify for a pension but will have to reverse mortgage it and live off the proceeds.

What was this topic about! Online tax to recover GST. Well stuff them we already pay enough taxes and if the government wants more revenue they can get it elsewhere.


While I admire the sentiment, something has to give. As a society, we want too much for the government given the limited resources.

Someone has to pay for it.

I think your assessment of the current budget situation is overstated, dramatic. Given the economic environment it would be foolish to go for a surplus. It is just a sad state of affairs, really.The labor party (and media) should have educated the public long ago on fiscal policy.

Good times, take money out. Bad times, put money in.
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Re: Online tax to recover GST

Postby casual_cyclist » Tue Jan 01, 2013 4:29 am

I picked up an ultegra triple for $120 shipped from Chain Reaction. Same part at the time from my LBS was $600. GST would have been $12 in the CR part. If I had to pay that, I would not have complained.
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Re: Online tax to recover GST

Postby jasonc » Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:53 am

casual_cyclist wrote:I picked up an ultegra triple for $120 shipped from Chain Reaction. Same part at the time from my LBS was $600. GST would have been $12 in the CR part. If I had to pay that, I would not have complained.


I'm with you. If I had to pay GST on my overseas purchases, I'll do it. I've spend around $2k on bike stuff (not all overseas, but I'll be generous). Where do I send my $200?

Hey if we donate it to the government can we then claim it back on our tax returns? :mrgreen:
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Re: Online tax to recover GST

Postby Xplora » Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:22 pm

jimboss wrote:
birdbrain wrote:I imagine that similar conversations will occur in 20 years time when that new generation have to pay the debts that the current government have accumulated. I'll make a prediction. If Labor is returned at the next election all those capitalists who own their homes will not qualify for a pension but will have to reverse mortgage it and live off the proceeds.

What was this topic about! Online tax to recover GST. Well stuff them we already pay enough taxes and if the government wants more revenue they can get it elsewhere.


While I admire the sentiment, something has to give. As a society, we want too much for the government given the limited resources.

Someone has to pay for it.

I think your assessment of the current budget situation is overstated, dramatic. Given the economic environment it would be foolish to go for a surplus. It is just a sad state of affairs, really.The labor party (and media) should have educated the public long ago on fiscal policy.

Good times, take money out. Bad times, put money in.

This is another gross oversimplification of the debate. The public sector CANNOT spend enough to correct serious changes in the spending of the private sector. Fundamental shifts such as the GFC can't be outspent. The disaster in the US and EU (aka the biggest developed economies on the planet) has not been fixed by public sector spending or cash bailouts.

I totally agree that someone has to pay for it, and it is a regrettable shame that the utter lack of leadership in all democracies across the planet has resulted in ticking time bombs. The pension works as long as everyone dies within 5-10 years of getting it. The pension age should current be around 75, based on life expectancy.

But to put responsibility for the basics of our welfare system on the shoulders of GHT is just nonsensical, because he doesn't bear the responsibility for fixing those problems. The lack of spine in our Parliament has caused it. Deception in the economic community has caused it. The stupidity of the broader voting public has caused it.

It's part of why I believe that putting GST (even if it costs money) on everything is a good idea; GST always costs money to administer and collect. The cost is either born by Customs, or the business, for ANY transaction. If inconvenience and cost was the focus, then just throw whole tax out. It remains the most difficult and time consuming tax for most smaller businesses to deal with. But it's a smart tax, a good tax, and we need it applied equally and fairly.

I have no doubt that it makes no difference to many OS purchases, but it IS costing some jobs. Even 1 job is enough to think "maybe we need to be even handed with our tax". After all, someone has to pay for our public services. :wink:
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Re: Online tax to recover GST

Postby birdbrain » Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:38 pm

Jimboss wrote:
While I admire the sentiment, something has to give. As a society, we want too much for the government given the limited resources.

Someone has to pay for it.

I think your assessment of the current budget situation is overstated, dramatic. Given the economic environment it would be foolish to go for a surplus. It is just a sad state of affairs, really.The labor party (and media) should have educated the public long ago on fiscal policy.

Good times, take money out. Bad times, put money in.


I would just like government to stop wasting our money. Insulation debarcle, failed green schemes, set top boxes, grocery watch, petrol commissioner and the rest. Rudds pie in the sky schemes cost us billions and you're right somebody has to pay for it and it's us taxpayers.
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Re: Online tax to recover GST

Postby twizzle » Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:40 pm

il padrone wrote:
twizzle wrote:And how do you convert that into pension payments?

A bit of basic macro-econiomic theory: GDP = C + I + G1 + G2 + X - M. This is the productive measure of national income. Software developemnt is going to be in there as part of I (business investment spending), eventually contributing to future increased C (consumption spending). The contribution to pension payments comes about through the taxation system - tax revenue is redistributed as a transfer payment to the needy (aka pensioners).

[end economics 101]


Nice at the theory level, but that's not how they make the books balance in practice. The pension payments of the future are unfunded today. Just look at the Uni super debacle. As for 'investment'... I can name a $1.5B "investment" that was canned as it was unusable.


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Re: Online tax to recover GST

Postby boss » Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:41 pm

Xplora wrote:
jimboss wrote:
birdbrain wrote:I imagine that similar conversations will occur in 20 years time when that new generation have to pay the debts that the current government have accumulated. I'll make a prediction. If Labor is returned at the next election all those capitalists who own their homes will not qualify for a pension but will have to reverse mortgage it and live off the proceeds.

What was this topic about! Online tax to recover GST. Well stuff them we already pay enough taxes and if the government wants more revenue they can get it elsewhere.


While I admire the sentiment, something has to give. As a society, we want too much for the government given the limited resources.

Someone has to pay for it.

I think your assessment of the current budget situation is overstated, dramatic. Given the economic environment it would be foolish to go for a surplus. It is just a sad state of affairs, really.The labor party (and media) should have educated the public long ago on fiscal policy.

Good times, take money out. Bad times, put money in.

This is another gross oversimplification of the debate. The public sector CANNOT spend enough to correct serious changes in the spending of the private sector. Fundamental shifts such as the GFC can't be outspent. The disaster in the US and EU (aka the biggest developed economies on the planet) has not been fixed by public sector spending or cash bailouts.


GFC wasn't a fundamental shift, it was a (massive) bubble that exploded. You cannot outspend such a crash, sure. But you can cushion the landing, and every dollar spent by the government is multiplied. Companies and individuals end up with the money, it goes in the bank, the bank lends 90% of it, someone spends that money, that money goes in the bank, 90% is lent out. Research the multiplier effect

The EU has been a monumental stuff up, the management of the receding economies there cannot be held up as 'best practice' by any means. To fix their recession they have bailed out their banks and REDUCED government spending. The reduction in public spending was made for political reasons - financially stable nations (led by Germany) - would not bail out affected financial markets (banks) unless the government reigned in their spending.

The idea of reigning in spending is sensible on the face of it, but at a time when an economy is dying in its proverbial behind, it's not what you want.


Xplora wrote:
I totally agree that someone has to pay for it, and it is a regrettable shame that the utter lack of leadership in all democracies across the planet has resulted in ticking time bombs. The pension works as long as everyone dies within 5-10 years of getting it. The pension age should current be around 75, based on life expectancy.

But to put responsibility for the basics of our welfare system on the shoulders of GHT is just nonsensical, because he doesn't bear the responsibility for fixing those problems. The lack of spine in our Parliament has caused it. Deception in the economic community has caused it. The stupidity of the broader voting public has caused it.

It's part of why I believe that putting GST (even if it costs money) on everything is a good idea; GST always costs money to administer and collect. The cost is either born by Customs, or the business, for ANY transaction. If inconvenience and cost was the focus, then just throw whole tax out. It remains the most difficult and time consuming tax for most smaller businesses to deal with. But it's a smart tax, a good tax, and we need it applied equally and fairly.

I have no doubt that it makes no difference to many OS purchases, but it IS costing some jobs. Even 1 job is enough to think "maybe we need to be even handed with our tax". After all, someone has to pay for our public services. :wink:


I was going to let the welfare issue lie but you've connected my comments RE budget deficit/surplus issues (heck - I'm suggesting the government SHOULD run a surplus right now rather than cut spending) ... So my last 2c on it...

I stand by my comments RE: welfare and pensions. I thought GHT's comments RE our government's economic management was a cheap shot, there are too many cheap shots being pitched around right now. We are not in a particularly bad state of affairs, and relative to the world, we look really good. If you are unhappy with your own situation that is most likely a reflection on you rather than anyone else.

At my core I'm a lefty but also a realist. GHT mentioned that he would have to sell his house and move to a less desirable area to fund retirement. So be it. Deal with it and don't blame anyone except yourself.
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Re: Online tax to recover GST

Postby boss » Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:46 pm

birdbrain wrote:
Jimboss wrote:
While I admire the sentiment, something has to give. As a society, we want too much for the government given the limited resources.

Someone has to pay for it.

I think your assessment of the current budget situation is overstated, dramatic. Given the economic environment it would be foolish to go for a surplus. It is just a sad state of affairs, really.The labor party (and media) should have educated the public long ago on fiscal policy.

Good times, take money out. Bad times, put money in.


I would just like government to stop wasting our money. Insulation debarcle, failed green schemes, set top boxes, grocery watch, petrol commissioner and the rest. Rudds pie in the sky schemes cost us billions and you're right somebody has to pay for it and it's us taxpayers.


I'm not going to get into specifics because I think you and I are on opposite sides of the idealogical divide, and I don't care for debating nuts and bolts politics on an open forum.

While i disagree with how you've attributed blame, I understand where you are coming from but at least feel comforted that the money wasn't a complete waste. As discussed above, if money is injected into the economy then it has positive effects regardless of what was.

As always, when people complain about failure I invite them to do a better job. If you think you could have done better, become a politician :wink:
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Re: Online tax to recover GST

Postby il padrone » Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:59 pm

twizzle wrote:Nice at the theory level, but that's not how they make the books balance in practice.

You mean the GDP formula, or the tax/transfer payments decisions??

The components of GDP are simple fact, nothing to do with making any books balance. It is a simple statement of what goes to creating our national production and income.

Tax revenues and the level of transfer payments are a matter for government economic and political decision-making, but again are generally a bit more than just 'balancing the books'. As jimboss mentioned, during good times we need to run surpluses or lower deficits (higher tax revenues, lower spending and transfers) while it is during the bad times that a deficit or lower surplus (lower taxes, higher spending) is called for. All this needs to work in concert with RBA monetary policy (interest rates).

Thus the current lower interest rate decision (RBA concerned about economic decline) suggests the very last thing to be aiming for is a contractionary budget (lower deficit/moving to surplus). We need a greater injection of funds into the declining economy.
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Re: Online tax to recover GST

Postby greyhoundtom » Tue Jan 01, 2013 4:24 pm

jimboss wrote:I stand by my comments RE: welfare and pensions. I thought GHT's comments RE our government's economic management was a cheap shot, there are too many cheap shots being pitched around right now. We are not in a particularly bad state of affairs, and relative to the world, we look really good. If you are unhappy with your own situation that is most likely a reflection on you rather than anyone else.

At my core I'm a lefty but also a realist. GHT mentioned that he would have to sell his house and move to a less desirable area to fund retirement. So be it. Deal with it and don't blame anyone except yourself.

In my post I tried to make the point (however badly) that for four years I managed to survive on the pension, however now while inflation appears to be under control, somehow my basic outgoings on essentials has increased to the stage where surviving on an age pension has become far more difficult.

I blamed the economic management of the current Federal government ............ possibly unfairly, as the State and local governments also has had a hand in this.

We have done everything possible to tighten our own budget in more ways than I care to explain, but it does include our evening meal being baked beans on toast three times a week these days.

Will I deal with it? Of course I will, as I have done my whole life. Unfortunately working harder or longer hours as was possible in the past to increase my income is no longer an option.
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