Stages Power Meter

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Re: Stages Power Meter

Postby dalai47 » Wed Apr 02, 2014 10:39 am

Powermeters calculate power using Watts = Torque * Angular Velocity. Riding uphills can alter either torque, angular velocity or both. It is still calculating Watts the same way...
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by BNA » Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:07 pm

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Re: Stages Power Meter

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:07 pm

boss wrote:Alex, what Xplora seemed to suggest (at least from my reading) is that power meters read high on climbs (or low on flats) regardless of q-rings or regular rings. Was this a misinterpretation?


Very slightly (almost negligible) since the assumption of constant crank velocity during a pedal stroke isn't really ever the case, however it's not nearly as much of an error as what non-circular rings introduce. Certainly not enough to explain the sort of power differential many suggest they experience.

Some years back Eric Lin did some high frequency measurements of velocity during some simulated flat and climbing. I tagged the pics for reference.

Here we can see some charts plotting the bike velocity (m/s) pseudo-sinusoidal variation while riding on the flat and on a climb (simulated). The horizontal axis is time at high sample rate - each peak and trough represents one half of a pedal stroke.

Keep in mind the shortened vertical axis is designed to highlight this variance. Plotted with axis starting at zero would see a very slightly wavy line.

We can see a maximum variance in velocity of ~0.5% on the flat:
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and ~ 2% on a simulated +10% gradient:
Image

Now that 2% variation in velocity <> 2% error in power, it will be less than that, but I'm not doing the maths right now.

Elliptical rings exacerbate this issue somewhat.
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Re: Stages Power Meter

Postby boss » Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:14 pm

Cool. Gotcha. There's a difference, but not enough for you to sweat about it in training RE: target power for intervals. Thanks heaps for the detailed explanation.
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Re: Stages Power Meter

Postby Ignoto » Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:55 pm

So I just had a FSA meter fitted and the guys at the LBS told me they had to take the Garmin Speed/Cadence sensor off so that it wouldn't cause any interference. I figured it wouldn't be a problem as the Stages pulls the cadence anyway, but what about speed?

I know the wheel magnet was used instead of the GPS on the Garmin as it provides a more accurate figure (especially if you're riding in tree coverage). So was the figure my Garmin was getting from the GPS or does Stages somehow calculate the speed you're going as well?
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Re: Stages Power Meter

Postby toolonglegs » Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:59 pm

GPS speed
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Re: Stages Power Meter

Postby Ignoto » Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:24 am

Righto then, thanks TLL! Is everyone happy with it only using GPS speeds? It may be a complete mindf*** for me to adjust from looking at speed while climbing and just looking at Watts!
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Re: Stages Power Meter

Postby GAV!N » Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:30 am

I've recently bought one as well and have kept the speed sensor on. I haven't had any issues with it interfering in anyway with the Stages...
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Re: Stages Power Meter

Postby Xplora » Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:22 pm

For crits I use Instant power, 30s power, cad, hr, time, and lastly speed solely because everyone else uses it and it is useful to know how slow you are riding if anyone is playing doggo or you are worried that the break is too slow. Sometimes the bunch breaks down so badly that you are 10kmh below average, and it is worthwhile knowing exactly what is happening. :idea:
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Re: Stages Power Meter

Postby kb » Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:14 pm

The cadence supplied by a PM is supposed to override a crank sensor automatically but you can remove the crank arm magnet if you're worried. Speed sensor really shouldn't cause any issues.
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Re: Stages Power Meter

Postby Carrots » Tue Apr 08, 2014 4:23 pm

Ignoto wrote:So I just had a FSA meter fitted and the guys at the LBS told me they had to take the Garmin Speed/Cadence sensor off so that it wouldn't cause any interference. I figured it wouldn't be a problem as the Stages pulls the cadence anyway, but what about speed?

I know the wheel magnet was used instead of the GPS on the Garmin as it provides a more accurate figure (especially if you're riding in tree coverage). So was the figure my Garmin was getting from the GPS or does Stages somehow calculate the speed you're going as well?


I have two Stages on my two Giants which both have the inbuilt speed/cadence sensors in the rear stay. Given the stages measures Cadence I haven't worried about putting the magnets on the cranks arms, however still use the sensor for the speed with no issues what so ever.

Can imagine that a magnet attached to the crank arm could cause an issue given close proximity (butted against it).
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Re: Stages Power Meter

Postby you cannot be sirrus » Tue Apr 08, 2014 4:35 pm

i still have the Garmin speed and cadence sensor on my bike and have no issues. Since putting the Stages on I never look at speed anyway as it is largely irrelevant IMO.
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Re: Stages Power Meter

Postby boss » Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:14 pm

I'm having water shorting out the battery issues... one battery lasted 30 hours, then next one lasted 10 hours, then I put one in last night and got a "low battery" warning this morning.

Pretty annoyed...
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Re: Stages Power Meter

Postby singlespeedscott » Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:39 pm

I have read nothing in here that would posses me to purchase a Stages power meter. They have a lot of R&D to perform IMO.
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Re: Stages Power Meter

Postby boss » Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:41 pm

singlespeedscott wrote:I have read nothing in here that would posses me to purchase a Stages power meter. They have a lot of R&D to perform IMO.


I am about to build up a new, more or less 'dream bike' build... I am pretty lost as to what I'm going to do RE: a power meter. Dura Ace 9000 groupset with a Stages PM was pretty much the go... dunno now.

Depends how well the shop and distro deal with this issue now. I am half expecting to get a lecture about riding in the rain...

Might get some vector pedals but that will mean new pedals for all my other road bikes (switch to keo cleat).
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Re: Stages Power Meter

Postby singlespeedscott » Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:51 pm

What's the point of a PM you can't use in the rain.
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Re: Stages Power Meter

Postby Jesmol » Thu Apr 10, 2014 1:15 pm

singlespeedscott wrote:What's the point of a PM you can't use in the rain.

Nobody has said you cant....
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Re: Stages Power Meter

Postby Crawf » Thu Apr 10, 2014 1:22 pm

Had mine 3-4 mths, it goes on all my bikes (commute/race/track) rain or shine, no water or cover issues so far.
Does chew through batteries, the last one lasted a month but that was a big month, I ordered a large dealextreme CR2032 batch for chump change so not bothered.
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Re: Stages Power Meter

Postby boss » Thu Apr 10, 2014 2:55 pm

Jesmol wrote:
singlespeedscott wrote:What's the point of a PM you can't use in the rain.

Nobody has said you cant....

Nobody has said that, in fact the Stages website says otherwise (see below)... but the fact of the matter is that when you ride in the rain (or on a wet road), the battery goes dead within a few days.

I'm not one to stop riding when it rains, and I want power data for all my rides.

The battery is supposed to last 200 hours according to Stages. I haven't even got anywhere near 100 hours in 6 months of ownership. Nowhere near that.

Random dead batteries for a piece of hardware your paying ~$1000 on isn't right.

The fact that they stick a bunch of Vaseline in the battery compartment would indicate they knew this was a design flaw from the beginning.

I.e.

Stages Website wrote:It can withstand the harshest down pours and being fully submerged in a stream crossing. However, it should not be put in a high pressure situations like being directly sprayed with a pressure washer or deep sea diving mountain biking.


= bulls**t

As much as I hate to alter the silhouette of my bikes, and as much as I don't want to switch pedals on my two other bikes, I am becoming more at peace with switching to Garmin Vector pedals.
Last edited by boss on Thu Apr 10, 2014 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Stages Power Meter

Postby Jesmol » Thu Apr 10, 2014 3:00 pm

boss wrote:
Jesmol wrote:
singlespeedscott wrote:What's the point of a PM you can't use in the rain.

Nobody has said you cant....


Nobody has said that... but the fact is that when you ride in the rain (or on a wet road), it stops working!

I'm not one to stop riding when it rains, and I want power data for all my rides. As much as I hate to alter the silhouette of my bikes, and as much as I don't want to switch pedals on my two other bikes, I am becoming more at peace with switching to Garmin Vector pedals.

The battery is supposed to last 200 hours. I haven't even got anywhere near 100 hours in 6 months of ownership. Nowhere near that.

Random dead batteries for a piece of hardware your paying ~$1000 on isn't right.

I've had occasional dead batteries as well, nothing to do with water though. I ride a crapload less then you, so its not hours. I suspect the unit is at times not going to sleep , maybe its picking up my phone BT or something, or if the bike is leant against a wall on the crank arm and it senses a load.
Last flat battery was found on my warm up for Sundays CS out at Woodside, great fun, lucky I carry a battery at all times.
Glad to see the battery cover was fully intact when I took it off though.
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Re: Stages Power Meter

Postby boss » Thu Apr 10, 2014 3:06 pm

I personally think Stages were betting that most people don't ride in the rain.
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Re: Stages Power Meter

Postby you cannot be sirrus » Thu Apr 10, 2014 3:40 pm

I'm a service tech for work and I come across loads of dead batteries or batteries with short life spans, poor stock rotation and cheap OS batteries would be my guess.
My stages has had a piece of electrical insulation tape over the battery cover from day one just in case of water ingress problems. I'm on my second battery in 5 months and changed the first one before it died because I was doing a long ride and didn't want it to die mid ride.
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Stages Power Meter

Postby dale79 » Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:08 pm

singlespeedscott wrote:I have read nothing in here that would posses me to purchase a Stages power meter. They have a lot of R&D to perform IMO.


Don't buy one then, it's pretty simple, buy garmin pedals and when you knock the pods off complain in another thread

You buy a cheap meter you will have to deal with some form of shortfall. You want perfect buy a SRM..
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Re: Stages Power Meter

Postby toolonglegs » Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:39 pm

I don't why people keep calling Stages cheap... $1000 is not cheap in my book!.
Disposable maybe... but not cheap :mrgreen: .
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Re: Stages Power Meter

Postby boss » Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:40 pm

dale79 wrote:
singlespeedscott wrote:I have read nothing in here that would posses me to purchase a Stages power meter. They have a lot of R&D to perform IMO.


Don't buy one then, it's pretty simple, buy garmin pedals and when you knock the pods off complain in another thread

You buy a cheap meter you will have to deal with some form of shortfall. You want perfect buy a SRM..


All well and good to say that, and I do side with your opinion (i.e. don't buy it if you don't wanna)...

But when I'm sitting here, looking at the Stages website claiming both that the unit is 'waterproof' and has a 200 hour run time, and all the while my unit is chewing batteries like it's going out of business...

I mean we're past the point of saying "Well, you should have spent more and bought a SRM" and we're into the territory of false advertising, deception, etc.

Or to be blunt - I'm not complaining about the accuracy of the thing. I bought a Stages and accept that there are limitations in it's design with regard to accuracy. I'm (and others are, too) complaining about something much more simple than that - the expectation that I can take it for a ride rain/hail/shine and put it aside and then take it for a ride the following day. The Stages unit that I currently own does not fulfill that basic expectation.

I'd rather control the variable (knocking off a pod) than have something that is completely out of my control (either design flaw or quality control issue - take your pick).
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Re: Stages Power Meter

Postby dale79 » Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:41 pm

I got 85 hours out of my battery and rode 120km in pouring rain and my battery still lived.. Sure they are not perfect but they are cheap and work and are accurate
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