Stages Power Meter

[AUbicycles]

Here is the complete news for the new Rotor LT which Rui Costa is riding in the Tour de France. I have left it unedited (i.e. market blah) as they describe the technology in a round-about manner. Essentially a left arm crank sensor but they are promoting identical crank arms (in terms of stiffness, and probably because of Stages).

MADRID (July 9, 2014) To outperform the competition, improvement must be constant - where weaknesses get singled out, measured, and conquered. Today ROTOR Bike Components introduced POWER LT, a lighter weight, power measurement system that took its technical and design cues from ROTOR's existing Power cranks training system. POWER LT is the result of a collaboration with UCI Pro Team Lampre-Merida, which compelled ROTOR to come up with a simple, lightweight power training system that could withstand the rigors of punishing use by the best professional riders.

"The racers need every possible advantage to compete at the level demanded by races like the Tour de France," said Julio Madrigal, sponsorship manager for ROTOR. "We wanted to give them an edge through equipment technology and our solution was POWER LT."


Costa's bike, Stage 5
Rui Costa, defending UCI Road World Champion and three-time Tour de Suisse winner, has targeted stage wins and the overall podium at this year's Tour.

"In the Tour, the difference is in the little details," Costa said. "I needed a light bike without sacrificing state-of-the-art technology. With this in mind, ROTOR developed its new POWER LT cranks. Now my bike will maintain the 6.8 kg weight minimum without giving up a power meter in the hard mountain stages."

Lampre's Merida bikes have been outfitted with POWER LT prototypes throughout the current season. POWER LT has been tested by the team's professional riders and its mechanics, and improved by ROTOR's engineers, thanks to their feedback.
Costa started today's Stage 5 with POWER LT installed on his Reacto KOM, which was featured yesterday on Cyclingnews.com.

"We created Power as a dual-power measurement system that recorded data for both the left and right cranks. POWER LT evolved out of that with a few distinctions," explained David Martínez, lead engineer for ROTOR's power meter range. "For instance, to save on weight, data is captured from POWER LT's left crank."

Key features that distinguish POWER LT are its compatibility with ANT+ devices, easy battery replacement, UBB30 crank axle, and affordable price together with the lowest weight penalty.

In line with ROTOR's vision to develop innovative solutions for cyclists, ROTOR has grown its power meter family. POWER offers the most advanced measurement technology, while POWER LT offers the best ratio of technology to weight and price.

Retail pricing for POWER LT will be 990€ and US $1,490.

Additional technical features:

The UBB (Universal Bottom Bracket) bottom bracket collection allows ROTOR Power and POWER LT 30mm axle crankset to be installed in almost any bicycle frame in the market.

Twin Leg Concept - ROTOR's Twin Leg Concept was created with the idea of a balanced crank set. What is the point of an ultra-rigid right crank if the left one is not as stiff? By designing a crank set as a "real set," not just as two individual crank arms, TLC creates the most balanced crank sets in the market.

ROTOR's CNC crank arms are stiffer than the competitors' products due to our Trinity Drilling System. This process drills three full-depth holes from axle to pedal, leaving behind a box-trellised structure, similar to bridge structures. This gives our crank arms superior stiffness without adding more weight to the cranks, resulting in an exceptional stiffness-to-weight ratio.

[Xplora]

Very interesting - Merida, at least, is having to make decisions about frame and wheels vs extra weight from a power meter to get down to 6.8kgs in the mountains.
Rather exxy though... 1500 bucks?! I assume this is 20-30 grams like the Stages arm?

[dalai47]

New firmware update https://stagescycling.freshdesk.com/sup ... etails-and" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Known Bug Fixes:

· Sleep initialization bug fix to insure power meter correctly enters sleep mode

Improvements:

· Improved power management. Reduced current draw from 1.2mA to 1.0mA. This represents an improvement in battery life to roughly 220 hours (was 200).

· Improved track functionality, for Stages Power Shimano Dura Ace 7710 track model

[brett.hooker]

I spoke to Danny Brkic, the CEO of FE Sports on the phone specifically because of the discussion on Stages in the forumI was interested to find out what is happening and sharing.

There are a couple of topic and I will tackle these in point by point.
....
Broken Tabs
Most problems are caused by broken tabs in the lid. The tabs can be easily broken and if a replacement cover is provided but the broken tab is still in the unit, the problems (water entry and battery drain) remain.
The size of the unit is creates a challenge to provide a different battery cover alternative. It means that care is required to ensure correct opening and closing plus diagnosing issues and recognising if a broken tab, unnoticed by the owner or even dealer will mean the issues continue.

Battery Lifetime
While Danny didn't provide a lifetime estimate for batteries - on Stages they estimate 200 hours of riding. So what would cause it to run out too fast? Often it is shorting-out:
- because of water entry as a result of the issue with the lid
- Or the contacts under the battery have been pushed down too far and need to be lifted up (with your thumbnail) to ensure a good contact with the battery so it isn't working overtime to maintain the connection.

I have been using Stages on my Road Bike now for a couple of months. Absolutely love it. Has worked fine, power numbers seem reasonable, and are reliable for my amateur purposes. I particularly like how easy they are to work with. Just bolt on and go. Works great with both my Edge 510 (Ant+) and my iPhone5s (Bluetooth with Strava).

Have just bought one for my MTB now as well.

Battery life has been great. First battery just finally ran out of juice. Have done over 2000km on this battery. The Edge 510 started warning me on Friday; plenty of heads up.

I have however just fallen foul of the broken tabs issue on the battery cover. I took it off as gently as you can (I have plenty of experience in dealing with fragile equipment). Upon removal, I found that two of the tabs had broken completely. I was able to retrieve the pieces easily, so I am confident that there are no residual pieces left in the unit to affect the waterproof seal. As I have a second unit here for my MTB, I just "borrowed" the cover from that one to get me up and running again. I will order a few covers and keep them as spare parts, as I can see from the design just how fragile they are. It's not clear whether they broke as a result of me opening the cover, or if it was from riding. I have been riding over some very rough asphalt over the last few weeks and perhaps the vibration was too intense. Who knows. I am VERY happy with the unit, and I am more than happy to pay for a few extra covers to keep them in the toolbox. No doubt they will fix this in future, and so far, it hasn't impacted my ability to use the unit.

Overall, I'd be recommending Stages to anyone who wanted a consumer grade power meter. Easy to install, easy to use. Just watch out for that battery cover.

[brett.hooker]

Any tips on ordering spare battery covers? Just go back through my retailer, or other options?

[joomz]

Your retailer should replace your broken cover. I'm not sure if you can order extra ones.

[brett.hooker]

Cheers!!!

[boss]

I've been quiet on this for some time now. I wanted to post after I'd given the replacement unit a good bash. But after endless issues with my first Stages and continuing issues with my second replacement unit, I am giving up.

My personal experience was that the first unit was seriously affected by water ingress, but FE and Stages appear to have acknowledged that issue (as above) even though they insisted that it was a software issue to me... and when the unit was returned and replaced under warranty, they did replace it but under their breath made noises that it was a problem that was caused by myself.

The second unit just never got the battery life that was promised. The most I've gotten out of it is 30 hours. It goes to sleep fine, there is plenty of contact between the battery terminals and the Stages contacts, there are no broken tabs inside and the battery door is in good shape. I know you can only expect to get so much life from a small coin-cell battery, but 30 hours is pitiful when compared with the claimed life of 220 hours.

I know that there are plenty of people out there having a good time with their Stages. I don't know if their expections are the same as mine and I don't know if they are riding as often to me. Maybe replacing a battery once every three months doesn't seem that arduous as opposed with once every two or three weeks.

I know that people often cite price-point as a reason not to complain about under-performance, but $799+ is not exactly pocket change. Additionally, I am not comparing my Stages to a Powertap, Garmin, Quarq or SRM. I am just comparing the unit to the specifications set-out by Stages.

So the bottom line from me. I guess I'd have a hard time recommending a Stages. There are people out there who seemingly do not have problems with their Stages. But there are people like myself who have no end of issues. I know of several others who are onto their second unit and are still not having a fun time. And I do know that at the price point, $799 is a bit of money for me to gamble that I will get a 'good unit', if those good units do in fact exist.

What does that mean? Well I wouldn't buy another one unless a v2 gets released with a beefier (screwed-down) battery door and perhaps a larger capacity battery. Discounting the engineering and tooling expenses in such an exercise, I just really can't see that happening anytime soon. For one, there isn't much space in between a crankarm and chainstay. And secondly, a V2 stages would imply that there was a problem with the first unit. I can't see them doing that given the situation we're in.

No hard feelings against Stages or FE, just putting my story out there for the sake of clarity. At this price point potential customers deserve all the information they can get before making a purchasing decision.

[AUbicycles]

Boss, thanks for the very reasoned and descriptive contribution.

[g-boaf]

Mine has died - the battery compartment has developed a crack in the corner of it, and no amount of efforts would get it going again. So it has gone back through the LBS and they'll replace it with a new one. Out of all the things that could have gone wrong, I didn't expect that.

[Crawf]

Dropped my 2nd unit off again last week, going back to FE, will I get a 3rd one in 8mths, we'll see, I'm scared to think what will happen when the warranty runs out :/
I'm with boss, I do wonder whether some people do the km's on these to experience the previously stated issues. My Stages goes on all my bikes for every ride that I turn the cranks on, in all conditions.

[boss]

Mine has died - the battery compartment has developed a crack in the corner of it, and no amount of efforts would get it going again. So it has gone back through the LBS and they'll replace it with a new one. Out of all the things that could have gone wrong, I didn't expect that.

This was one of my major concerns (aside from those outlined below), the unit just seemed to be woefully underengineered for 'waterproof' $800+ product.

Dropped my 2nd unit off again last week, going back to FE, will I get a 3rd one in 8mths, we'll see, I'm scared to think what will happen when the warranty runs out :/
I'm with boss, I do wonder whether some people do the km's on these to experience the previously stated issues. My Stages goes on all my bikes for every ride that I turn the cranks on, in all conditions.

Good luck.

I voiced similar concerns around "what happens after 12 months" and FE replied that they will continue to "support" the product "well after" 12 months. While I understand that they are attempting to do the right thing, and were making the offer in good faith, my concerns remained.

I.e. what happens when I'm onto my sixth unit, 26 months after purchase? Where do they draw the line? When is it reasonable for them to stop supplying, and when is it unreasonable for me to continue asking.

And adding to that:

1. I was having the same issue with the second unit as I had with the first.
2. Other people were having the same issue as I was, and they had units of varying ages. In some cases, they were onto their second or third unit.
3. FE Sports had continued to deny there was any issue with my unit, but articulated that they were replacing in good faith. Code for they are just wanting to get a painful customer out of their hair.

Those three points, combined with a vaguely communicated level of "support" really left me with no confidence in running the product.

I've been pretty vocal in my frustration around having to hand over the unit for a few weeks to get a replacement, when in the 'States Stages will send you a unit and a pre-paid satchel to return your faulty unit. That aside - what happens when they say "Yeah, so it's been X months since purchase, we've drawn the line here."

And look, I fully acknowledge that some people seem to be using their Stages without complaint. My theory would be something along the lines of they don't ride enough to notice the battery drain (replacing a battery after 3-4 months may seem normal), they don't go anywhere near water or they simply don't pay attention to time between battery changes (or take issue to replacing a battery every few weeks).

That does not mean that I think there isn't an inherent problem with the product. We have FE Sports on the record in this thread saying that they do not quote a battery life for Stages. Meanwhile, Stages release a firmware upgrade that is quoted on the record as increasing runtime from 200 to 220 hours. FE know something is up, and are backing away from the claims to avoid 'does not match description' type claims.

With all of the options now at the low end of the market - Garmin, Powertap and P2M can all be had under $1k - I do not see how any informed and rational person could seriously consider a Stages.

And FE Sports, if you are listening. Thanks for taking the ass end out of the second hand market by allowing retailers to discount your Stages powermeters. Trying to sell my brand new replacement unit second hand, could barely even get $700 for a brand new Ultegra unit. These things are supposed to be firm RRP$899, but nine out of ten people I spoke to said they could get them for $800 from their local. Great work, cheers, etc.

[scotto]

wow - kind of settles the argument for getting one of these....time to keep saving

[boss]

wow - kind of settles the argument for getting one of these....time to keep saving

If you already have compatible cranks and rings - Power2Max classic are DIRT cheap and quite highly reputed in terms of reliability and accuracy - $750 for the spider. And now Australian distro. http://power2max.com.au" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Garmin Type S (one sided Garmin Vector) that has just been realised will be sub-AU$900 if the currency gods are fair.

PowerTap are well documented at under $1k but obviously have issues with multiple wheels.

Brim Brothers (cleat mounted PM) are also said to be coming at the Vegas Interbike. Don't know price point but it will be an interesting announcement.

Given all the questions around Stages and reliability I just don't see how anyone armed with the facts can make the purchase, at least until the issues are addressed and addressed properly by both Stages and FE.

[jasonc]

I'm waiting for this one:
http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2014/08/watt ... rbeat.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[boss]

I'm waiting for this one:
http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2014/08/watt ... rbeat.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They're a cute solution, but there are several (and reasonably serious) technical issues surrounding calibration make the solution 'interesting' to say the least.

<snip, discussion above re: installing with glue http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2014/08/euro ... crank.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;>

After the 24 hours it’ll be time to calibrate it. To do so you’ll start by using a supplied weight. At present they’re planning on shipping what is effectively a water balloon with a fill-line on it. This will allow them to know a given weight based on the volume of the water you stick in. They’re aiming for 1-3KG of weight (they haven’t quite yet decided the exact number). You’ll attach the ‘weight’ to the crank arm while the crank arm is horizontal.

It’s at this specific juncture where most of the interwebs has the most skepticism. The company claims that they are able to know the dynamics of the crank arm merely by measuring the force applied while the weight is hanging. They noted that each and every crank arm reacts slightly differently (carbon and aluminum), but they believe they are able to accurately determine a calibration value based on just a single weight test.

This is different than virtually every other company on the market where they do some form of factory calibration of the portion where the strain gauge is attached to (be it hub, spider, arm, etc…). In doing so many of them also determine calibration points across a range of temperatures. Said differently, they have a crapload of ‘understood torque values’ for a given material.

In any event, then using your supplied phone app it’ll go ahead and determine the calibration value and set it for the unit (all via Bluetooth Smart). Subsequent communication with your head unit would be using standard protocols over ANT+ or Bluetooth Smart. The application can store multiple bike profiles, and thus multiple calibration points.

For the $300 between these and a decent, tested powermeter, I'd spend the $300.

Having said that, if (and that's a big if) they ever get to market, and if (another big if) they manage to hit US$499, one thing is for sure. The introduction of a $499 powermeter will certainly do something to shake up the existing price-points. Which is a good thing, even if the product is junk. I could draw parallels to another product, that's already on the market! Ha.

[jasonc]

dcrainmaker has a further write up about them in his eurobike write up. still looking good for me. we need a new thread for them

[boss]

^^^ Yeah sorry, added in quote of DC rainmaker which talks at length around the most major calibration issue.

Either way it's not the kind of product I'd like to be the guinea pig for!

[Xplora]

I think that's ultimately the thing, isn't it? Money talks, and when it comes to power meters it screams really loud. The new PC8 from SRM is supposed to cost 1000 bucks. It doesn't appear to have the features I want like a lap history like my Garmin 800 does. Long battery life is good, 2-4 samples a second for analysis is good, but that's big bikkies for something that could be assumed to not be "an upgrade" for some. Strava on the phone while your PC6 or 7 does the real heavy lifting...

[g-boaf]

wow - kind of settles the argument for getting one of these....time to keep saving

This was one of my major concerns (aside from those outlined below), the unit just seemed to be woefully underengineered for 'waterproof' $800+ product.

When it works, it works well. When it doesn't... It's the annoyance of spending $1000 for something like this. The engineered quality needs to be a bit better so it can stand up to the stresses that such a product will have to endure. Being on the pedal crank, it's going to be exposed to things getting flicked up at it from the ground (small stones, etc) and it'll be exposed to water spray. It also seems that perhaps the battery chamber cover itself, the act of opening and closing it might be placing stress on the surrounding plastic housing. The chamber cover is extremely tight fitting and does take some effort to open and close, even carefully.

I don't know about you Boss, but I've not put all that much kilometres on mine, perhaps 700km - though I've not kept track of it. This will be my second one - I'm very concerned. I'm going to want to get some sort of assurance that when the warranty goes it isn't going to cost me arms and legs to fix when it breaks. Look at it another way, if Porsche were to build something like this, you could be sure it would have been used and abused beyond all normal measures before it got out to the customers so that fundamental issues like these don't occur. And these are fundamental flaws.

I'm getting a bike service and some other things done at the same time. I've got my other bike going again.

[Carrots]

The memory is hazy, but from recollection consumer laws require warranties to kick start again from the date a product is replaced. The problem arises though with the headache of actually trying to argue this if a manufacturer fobs you off, especially given the quality of most Consumer Affairs departments.


PS Porsche still have plenty of issues.... Like windows that come back up with smudge marks that no end of realignment doesn't seem to fix and radios that continually revert to a different station after turning car back on. Rant over! LOL.

[Xplora]

A product will always have to meet the requirement of "fit for purpose", and your consumer rights exist forever. Stages/FE Sports might claim that watertightedness has its limits, and that battery covers can break, but I strongly doubt the ACCC and the courts would accept that such an expensive and sensitive device could reasonably be expected to crap out regularly like the bad examples do. I know tons of guys who have them now, and I haven't heard bad reports from any of them. Not one. MTB and road bike. dale79 has said many times he isn't aware of any issues with his circle either.

Ultimately it comes down to the fact that if 25% of the products are bad eggs, then the distributor is going to take a bath. Keep your receipts, you might need them

I'm a bit disappointed that they didn't just use an aluminium casing and battery cover, that would seem to be a better solution?

[singlespeedscott]

Because all the weight weenie cyclists would of complained about the weight

[g-boaf]

Because all the weight weenie cyclists would of complained about the weight

What can I complain about, my bike is already very close to 6.8kg. Seems that mine isn't the only one to suffer this crack in the housing for the battery:

http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2 ... post529474" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm more interested in durability.

[boss]

I know tons of guys who have them now, and I haven't heard bad reports from any of them. Not one. MTB and road bike. dale79 has said many times he isn't aware of any issues with his circle either.

The new unit did fix the water-tightness, I never detected water inside.

It did not fix the battery consumption. First battery 30 hours, second 20, third 20. Actually the first battery netted 2 hours but I think that was an outlier.

My proposition when I say that the product is flawed, is that people are not paying a great deal of attention to the fact they're changing batteries every 3-4 weeks. Or they don't care that they're changing a battery every 3-4 weeks. Or whatever.

Out of my extended circle of mates, only one has claimed that he has netted over 100 hours. The rest all said they're getting under 50. And the most that I ever got was 60 hours on the first crankarm in the middle of summer. Hence why I am suggesting FE are backing away from any battery duration claims.

And of course battery life is one thing, and to many changing a battery somewhat regularly is not a huge deal. The reason why I was so averse to doing so is due to the battery door mechanism and durability. As g-boaf mentioned, the door is on there bloody tight due to the upgraded door and seal combo (because watertight). Taking it off and removing it is clumsy, and an accident waiting to happen whether it be in terms of repeated stress or just a one-off mishap.

But yeah. My suggestion is that people aren't unhappy with their Stages because they aren't unhappy with 3-4+ weeks between battery changes.

I suppose you may get a different answer from someone if you ask how much battery life they get from their Stages, as opposed to whether or not they like it.

I'm a bit disappointed that they didn't just use an aluminium casing and battery cover, that would seem to be a better solution?

I've always thought that the locking mechanism was the key problem. It's one of those circular doors that you set in place so the claws line up with openings in the body, twist and the door's claws lock itself in place.

A few micro screws would have solved the problem and would be pretty efficient in terms of space.

But yes aluminium would also be nice.