Stages Power Meter

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Re: Stages Power Meter

Postby dale79 » Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:48 am

ParkertR wrote:@Dale - i emailed them but didn't get any response... how's your Stages power meter? Has it arrived? I've been reading up and apparently some guy's stages drowned after a wet ride o.O!


I got my tracking number this morning, its left the usa and is on route to here,

should be here Tuesday/Wednesday next week..

it cost me $920 all up delivered, so hoping the aus dealer will keep the pricing similar if they do I will probably buy a second one..
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by BNA » Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:50 am

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Re: Stages Power Meter

Postby dale79 » Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:50 am

I also offered to buy 10-15 units off them if they would ship them to AUS which they declined which was a little strange to me..
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Re: Stages Power Meter

Postby Xplora » Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:49 pm

dale79 wrote:I also offered to buy 10-15 units off them if they would ship them to AUS which they declined which was a little strange to me..

Probably violates a possible distribution contract... .the new distro is probably only buying 20 cranks to start with!
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Re: Stages Power Meter

Postby dalai47 » Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:54 pm

Xplora wrote:
dale79 wrote:I also offered to buy 10-15 units off them if they would ship them to AUS which they declined which was a little strange to me..

Probably violates a possible distribution contract... .the new distro is probably only buying 20 cranks to start with!


Plus who would want to buy from a non distributor? Second owner surely wouldn't be covered by warranty! V1.0 - new product already some going back due to sensor unbonding and water in sensor issues...
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Re: Stages Power Meter

Postby dale79 » Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:56 pm

Do you think I was going to drop $15k on meters and not be a distributer?
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Re: Stages Power Meter

Postby Xplora » Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:07 pm

+1 Dale. It's all a bit peculiar to me.

Interestingly enoguh. your wizardry with the sprinter shifters makes me think that you'd be better placed to support them as well ;)
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Re: Stages Power Meter

Postby dalai47 » Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:17 pm

dale79 wrote:Do you think I was going to drop $15k on meters and not be a distributer?


If the number of people in Australia showing interest buy a Stages unit, 10-15 is just a drop in the ocean.
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Re: Stages Power Meter

Postby jcjordan » Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:41 pm

I would like to see some more user reviews before I would consider stages.

The need to double the readings from one crank just seems to add to much of a error factor for my liking.

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Re: Stages Power Meter

Postby toolonglegs » Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:52 pm

That and the fact that for what they are they should be a hell of a lot cheaper!.
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Re: Stages Power Meter

Postby Xplora » Thu Aug 08, 2013 5:27 pm

jcjordan wrote:I would like to see some more user reviews before I would consider stages.

The need to double the readings from one crank just seems to add to much of a error factor for my liking.

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This completely misunderstands the reasoning behind training with power - unless your interest is showing off, then the main criteria is consistency and repeatability. It doesn't matter if your 100W reads as 200W, a training program revolves around TSS and FTP - which are effectively just maths around a couple constants. You don't need to know what the exact figures are. You need to know that you can put out Xwatts for Yseconds Ztimes in the race or the week. It doesn't make a difference if you are getting this from one leg or two - UNLESS you specifically require measurement of both legs, in which case most power meters can't do that anyway!

You aren't getting error from multiplying the legs. You get error from a bad measurement. Stages seems to be OK at measurement.

They charge what they charge. I am not surprised. People won't buy a cheap PM. "Toy" is the label. Look at the PowerCal. Too cheap to be taken seriously.
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Re: Stages Power Meter

Postby Evo6point5 » Thu Aug 08, 2013 5:31 pm

Terrible dollar doesnt help.

With Vectors finally (yet to be seen) arriving I think the 2 month delay in allowing aussies to buy Stages may eat into their sales. With preorder costs there's $500 difference, but the ability to use Vectors on any bike will be a big plus.

Agree with the above. DCs review showed consistency in output and that's the importance. No one even know what to do with double leg data at this stage.
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Re: Stages Power Meter

Postby jcjordan » Thu Aug 08, 2013 5:39 pm

Xplora wrote:
jcjordan wrote:I would like to see some more user reviews before I would consider stages.

The need to double the readings from one crank just seems to add to much of a error factor for my liking.

Sent from my GT-I9305T using Tapatalk 4

This completely misunderstands the reasoning behind training with power - unless your interest is showing off, then the main criteria is consistency and repeatability. It doesn't matter if your 100W reads as 200W, a training program revolves around TSS and FTP - which are effectively just maths around a couple constants. You don't need to know what the exact figures are. You need to know that you can put out Xwatts for Yseconds Ztimes in the race or the week. It doesn't make a difference if you are getting this from one leg or two - UNLESS you specifically require measurement of both legs, in which case most power meters can't do that anyway!

You aren't getting error from multiplying the legs. You get error from a bad measurement. Stages seems to be OK at measurement.

They charge what they charge. I am not surprised. People won't buy a cheap PM. "Toy" is the label. Look at the PowerCal. Too cheap to be taken seriously.


I understand what you saying but there is still the problem around the consistency in pedal stroke.

Riders get tired and this will exasperate in balances between legs. Add to this difference in pedal stroke when climbing and TT efforts would also lead to inconsistent readings.

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Re: Stages Power Meter

Postby dale79 » Thu Aug 08, 2013 5:46 pm

Lol at worst you will be 2-3% difference in each leg, your not going to wear out your right leg faster than your left leg etc..
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Re: Stages Power Meter

Postby toolonglegs » Thu Aug 08, 2013 5:47 pm

Xplora wrote:They charge what they charge. I am not surprised. People won't buy a cheap PM. "Toy" is the label. Look at the PowerCal. Too cheap to be taken seriously.


But powercal is a gimmick... it doesn't measure actual power in any way as you know.
Now looking at Stages, if it is accurate enough ( and water proof / reliable ) ... and it is sent to China ( or where ever ) and pumped out in bulk, even with an after market crank arm. It could be produced pretty cheaply. Isn't it just a bit of cnc work and then bonding of the unit?.
Someone will do it one day ... $250 power meters and they will flood the market :mrgreen: .
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Re: Stages Power Meter

Postby jcjordan » Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:15 pm

dale79 wrote:Lol at worst you will be 2-3% difference in each leg, your not going to wear out your right leg faster than your left leg etc..


I have seen people using the current quarq's which have their balance fluctuations upwards of 10% and between legs. These reading are not consistent during the ride and nor is the average between rides.

At best I would suspect this would blow out the comparison of a rider from one ride to the next to make the number suspect for a serious training.

Add to this the product is only a couple of hundred bucks cheaper than a crank based system. Especially when these systems are just as easy to swap over, more accurate and less susceptible to damage.


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Re: Stages Power Meter

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:40 pm

Xplora wrote:
jcjordan wrote:I would like to see some more user reviews before I would consider stages.

The need to double the readings from one crank just seems to add to much of a error factor for my liking.

Sent from my GT-I9305T using Tapatalk 4

This completely misunderstands the reasoning behind training with power - unless your interest is showing off, then the main criteria is consistency and repeatability. It doesn't matter if your 100W reads as 200W, a training program revolves around TSS and FTP - which are effectively just maths around a couple constants. You don't need to know what the exact figures are. You need to know that you can put out Xwatts for Yseconds Ztimes in the race or the week.

There are many applications of power meters and their data, and some of those applications require greater precision than others, so first up one needs to understand for what purposes you intend to use the meter and the data.

Stages might be fine for some of the least demanding applications of power meter data but it will be inadequate for other uses. The data from Stages may be suitable for many and present a good option, although it's early days yet on the longevity/reliability front.

Xplora wrote:It doesn't make a difference if you are getting this from one leg or two - UNLESS you specifically require measurement of both legs, in which case most power meters can't do that anyway!

The total power output of both legs very much does matter from a performance perspective and again it depends on what you need the data for. Stages make a fairly large assumption that total power = 2 x left leg power, always. This simply isn't the case, and the difference varies with duration, relative power level, cadence and fatigue levels, let alone from person to person.

I'm a lower left leg amputee. Do you reckon it would be accurate for me? I also know my left-right contribution changes significantly depending on various factors.

All other power meters measure the combined power of both legs. Some attempt to provide a left-right split, although one has to define what is meant by left and right power, indeed isolating such things is actually pretty hard to do (keep in mind the cranks are connected system). I do agree that L-R information is of limited value and provides little if any actionable intelligence. Total power output is what matters.

Xplora wrote:You aren't getting error from multiplying the legs. You get error from a bad measurement. Stages seems to be OK at measurement.

Yes, Stages may well be measuring the left crank well, however you are most definitely getting an error from multiplying that by 2 and assuming that represents total power output. It's an error that we cannot quantify nor know how it varies for any individual without lab based testing with special equipment only available to a handful of labs, and even then it may be different in the field.

What one then has to determine is whether that level of uncertainty about this unknown error matters for the purpose to which you wish to use the meter (it's a "known unknown" in Rumsfeld speak).

Xplora wrote:They charge what they charge. I am not surprised. People won't buy a cheap PM. "Toy" is the label. Look at the PowerCal. Too cheap to be taken seriously.

The PowerCal is not taken seriously as a power meter because it is not a power meter.
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Re: Stages Power Meter

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:40 pm

dale79 wrote:Lol at worst you will be 2-3% difference in each leg, your not going to wear out your right leg faster than your left leg etc..

wanna bet?
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Re: Stages Power Meter

Postby dale79 » Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:46 pm

lucky im normal then..
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Re: Stages Power Meter

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:50 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
dale79 wrote:Lol at worst you will be 2-3% difference in each leg, your not going to wear out your right leg faster than your left leg etc..

wanna bet?

Left-right cycling power output asymmetry is not a new topic, it has been well know for a generation, e.g.:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10460126
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Re: Stages Power Meter

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:51 pm

dale79 wrote:lucky im normal then..

Asymmetry is normal.
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Re: Stages Power Meter

Postby joomz » Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:12 pm

I've just spent 6 weeks training on a Watt Bike, that measures left and right leg power independently. I've got a bad left knee. I was surprised to see how close the power from both legs was, usually only 1% higher power from the right. Understand it might not be the same for everyone, but I'd be happy with a Stages after seeing those results
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Re: Stages Power Meter

Postby Xplora » Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:45 pm

I am not training world record holders nor am I working with a budget that makes Movistar blush. I don't think there is any question that stages is anelite level sensor. That's the problem, SRM is the only option once you start caring the high end purposes because Quarq isn't enough, powertap does not send data enough to the head unit and polar isn't reliable enough. Everything is to a price point. I get normalised power from my powercal. It's rough but I just don't need more when a used quarq aka inferior solution is on eBay for 1000 bucks. I would hazard a guess that stages has worked out that club level riders want the product and will pay up to 1000 bucks if there is virtually no weight penalty. It's a product for a price point and it frustrates me enormously that some people can't understand that this is not a SRM competitor right now.

I understand your uncommon difficulty Alex. Stages is not for you. But I reckon 95% of riders will kill themselves to get this. CycleOps agrees ;)
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Re: Stages Power Meter

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:40 pm

joomz wrote:I've just spent 6 weeks training on a Watt Bike, that measures left and right leg power independently. I've got a bad left knee. I was surprised to see how close the power from both legs was, usually only 1% higher power from the right. Understand it might not be the same for everyone, but I'd be happy with a Stages after seeing those results

The Wattbike does not measure left and right leg idependently, it can't since the strain sensor is downstream of the cranks. What it does is split left and right side net crank torque, which is quite a different thing to what the legs are doing independently.

e.g. you could be 50:50 measured that way, but still be producing greater torque with one leg than the other, that is one leg may push down harder while the opposing leg may be applying some negative torque. While the other leg doesn't push down quite as hard and has some positive torque assistance from the opposing uplifting leg. Hence the net torque could be equal on both sides (50:50) but the independent leg scenario is different.

But what is more telling is whether the information is of any substantive value.
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Re: Stages Power Meter

Postby dale79 » Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:40 am

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
But what is more telling is whether the information is of any substantive value.


exactly.. for 99% of riders the info given is perfectly fine, for what I want the stages will be perfectly fine.
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Re: Stages Power Meter

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:08 am

dale79 wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
But what is more telling is whether the information is of any substantive value.


exactly.. for 99% of riders the info given is perfectly fine, for what I want the stages will be perfectly fine.

What you need it for may not represent 99% of riders, I think that's a pretty big assumption.
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