Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

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Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby Derny Driver » Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:29 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
sogood wrote:Going off topic, is there an electric derny bike on the horizon? I always thought that drafting a combustion engine is not too healthy for the rider in tow.

No worse than riding on the roads with vastly more traffic.

I've never noticed exhaust from a motor bike or derny when motorpacing.

Some of the older bikes blow a bit of smoke but my new one runs very clean and quiet too.
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Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby sogood » Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:51 pm

foo on patrol wrote:For the record, those that have not done motor paced training, you don't know what you are missing out on. :wink: :mrgreen:

Did you mean this? :mrgreen:

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Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby sogood » Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:53 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:No worse than riding on the roads with vastly more traffic.
I've never noticed exhaust from a motor bike or derny when motorpacing.

True, but wouldn't it be better to avoid it when possible? There must be exhausts, right?
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Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby Derny Driver » Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:06 pm

sogood wrote:Did you mean this? ]

Rompelberg is a legend.
I like his predecessor better, Jose Meiffret. He carried his will in his pocket which said that if he fell off and died, he was to buried at that spot.
http://cycling.ahands.org/bicycling/datewithdeath.html
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Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby Riggsbie » Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:51 pm

Excuse my ignorance, but why train behind a pace motorcycle ?

What purpose does it serve versus riding into the wind with no assistance ?


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Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby Derny Driver » Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:40 pm

Riggsbie wrote:Excuse my ignorance, but why train behind a pace motorcycle ?

What purpose does it serve versus riding into the wind with no assistance ?


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Good question. 2 schools of thought
1. For those who follow the scientific method of training using watts and powermeters, there is no scientific proof that motorpacing has any benefits at all. A watt is a watt, whether it be behind a moto or up a hill or on a flat road. It is true that there is very little scientific proof that it has any value.
2. Evidence or no evidence, motorpacing has provided benefits for decades, with todays professional cyclists all using motorpacing as part of their training. Some things just work and we dont always understand why.

This article is pretty good
http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/11809 ... acing.aspx
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Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby Riggsbie » Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:01 pm

Thanks.....

An interesting read !


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Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:22 pm

Riggsbie wrote:Excuse my ignorance, but why train behind a pace motorcycle ?

What purpose does it serve versus riding into the wind with no assistance ?

There are two main elements:
- Some of the physiological demands are different to solo riding
- Motivational/psychological differences

Physiologically, the neuromuscular demands are significantly different to solo riding, however metabolically it will be no more/less beneficial than solo riding at the same effort level.

A casual glance at a Quadrant Analysis of the pedal forces and pedal speeds from motor pace efforts will demonstrate quickly that the neuromuscular demands are similar to road and track endurance race events but have little neuromuscular specificity with respect to time trial and non-draft triathlon events.

Motorpacing can be a great motivational tool to ensure an athlete gets hard training done (the metabolic impact is similar), and particularly where the specificity element of race simulation can be achieved with a moto that one can't do solo.

Many sensible purposes for motor pace sessions are:
- providing (roadie) race like simulation. The same simulations are attainable through hard bunch rides, and road races. Where a rider has limited access to such training opportunity or races, it makes some sense to consider motorpacing if you know what you are doing

- as a motivational tool and a change up to training. Many find it challenging and fun

- for track sprint work - e.g. getting track sprinters up to a high pace without having used all their gas getting to a high speed in the first place, so they can practice hard accelerations from a high start speed. This enables more such work to be completed in a session.

- for track team pursuit and points race simulation when limited riders are available

- practice for motor pace events (various track races have elements of motorpacing)

- for ensuring rider safety and discipline during track warm ups with lots of riders on the track
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Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby brentono » Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:41 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
- for track sprint work - e.g. getting track sprinters up to a high pace without having used all their gas getting to a high speed in the first place, so they can practice hard accelerations from a high start speed. This enables more such work to be completed in a session.

+1
Probably revealing the "holy grail" here Alex :o
Sprinting off the motorcycle pacer for training at top speed (on Track or Road/Fixed) at
speeds of 50+ to 70+kph and more, to the point you are capable of, hones a faster finish. :wink:
Basically simulating a finish of an event, repeated, till nauseum.
A motorbike never gets tired. :twisted:
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Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:28 pm

sogood wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:No worse than riding on the roads with vastly more traffic.
I've never noticed exhaust from a motor bike or derny when motorpacing.

True, but wouldn't it be better to avoid it when possible? There must be exhausts, right?


It would be nice I suppose. I looked up some electric bikes with similar performance to a small capacity motorbike. They cost $12-20k, have a range of 30-100km when ridden solidly (motopacing can have lots of energy draining accelerations) and take 6-9 hours to recharge.

That's inadequate and very expensive when one can set up a small capacity petrol bike for a fraction of that cost.
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Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby sogood » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:32 pm

Yes, I can see the technology may not support the performance demands motor pacing. The size of the market doesn't help.
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Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby foo on patrol » Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:00 pm

Riggsbie wrote:Excuse my ignorance, but why train behind a pace motorcycle ?

What purpose does it serve versus riding into the wind with no assistance ?


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I personally don't give rats what the perceived, so called power metres or any simulated description says. All that I can say from my perspective and those that trained around me is, it worked and it made you get used to spinning hard. The difference in speed and reactive response was very notable to not only me and the blokes I trained with but also the blokes that trained us. Just because something is written or printed on a piece of paper says, that it does or doesn't make any difference, does not mean it does or doesn't work. :roll:

It worked for me and a couple of Australian champions and that's all I cared about. :wink: I also know of some Commonwealth and Olympic riders of my time that used it to great advantage, placebo effect I don't think so. :roll:

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Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:07 pm

foo on patrol wrote:
Riggsbie wrote:Excuse my ignorance, but why train behind a pace motorcycle ?

What purpose does it serve versus riding into the wind with no assistance ?


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I personally don't give rats what the perceived, so called power metres or any simulated description says. All that I can say from my perspective and those that trained around me is, it worked and it made you get used to spinning hard. The difference in speed and reactive response was very notable to not only me and the blokes I trained with but also the blokes that trained us. Just because something is written or printed on a piece of paper says, that it does or doesn't make any difference, does not mean it does or doesn't work. :roll:

It worked for me and a couple of Australian champions and that's all I cared about. :wink: I also know of some Commonwealth and Olympic riders of my time that used it to great advantage, placebo effect I don't think so. :roll:

Foo


Where has anyone said it doesn't work / make a difference?
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Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby Derny Driver » Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:24 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
foo on patrol wrote:
It worked for me and a couple of Australian champions and that's all I cared about. :wink: I also know of some Commonwealth and Olympic riders of my time that used it to great advantage, placebo effect I don't think so. :roll:

Foo


Where has anyone said it doesn't work / make a difference?

I said there is a school of people who dont believe in it. Maybe foo thought I was referring to you Alex. I wasnt because I know you too are "a believer".
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Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby foo on patrol » Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:04 pm

I'm sorry if that came out wrong. :oops:

You get people telling others that it and it, being anything to do with training that does not necessarily conform to data on a sheet from a machine of some description.
The thing with motor paced training is (I realise I'm not preaching to the sceptics) you can sit on whatever speed you want all day long and it won't tire and that's the part
you can't get with a human pace line. We did sprint intervals with the motor bike, the same as you would without it but it pushed us harder than others around us. :wink:

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Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby sogood » Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:18 pm

So what you are saying is that motor pacing is as for pacing, psychologically a rider is more likely to hold onto a speed/power longer if there's someone or something leading the way, one that we regularly encounters in races or bunch rides? Maybe the way to quantify the benefits of motor pacing is to approach it psychologically than in terms of power numbers. Where's our sports psychologist?
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Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:40 pm

Motivation is a big element in training, and not everyone has access to training groups at the right level to enable race simulation, or sprint mates for speed work. Having someone with you can be great motivation to train just that little bit (or a lot) extra. But that someone has to be at a similar level and be capable of stretching you appropriately when you need it.

The motorbike never gets tired, meaning you can do as much work as the rider is capable of, and get it done at the right level for that athlete. It can be hard to get that right unless you have a tight training group made up of riders all at the right level. Most club bunches are just too diverse in rider capability/fitness for this to be effectively executed.

I know that when I'm training for race prep purposes, a good 90%+ of my work is solo*, and it would be great to have motor pacing access every so often to break that up. You do need a quality driver who knows just what to do and when. Good ones are like gold.


* indeed I can get to the stage where the only bunches I ride in are races. When I'm not training for racing, then bunches are more for social/general fitness and enjoyment, or where I'm leading a group for coaching purposes. But the bunch still needs to be small and well drilled to be enjoyable in my experience/opinion.
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Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby sogood » Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:51 pm

So to further break down the benefits of motor pacing, where are the specific benefits?

1) Having another soul who can shout and motivate you?
2) Having a visual focus just ahead of you that allows you to concentrate on?
3) Drafting and ride at higher speed without additional power?

Guess my question is, can the same benefits be attained by having a motor rider riding beside and 1/2 a bike length ahead i.e. Without the draft? And a further question is, is there really nothing that can be an alternative to "motor pacing"? Curious.
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Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby toolonglegs » Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:57 pm

I don't have access to a moto, would dearly love some more motorpacing than I get off the odd truck and tractor. Also don't have access to group rides very often that are anywhere near hard enough.
Just wondering how much wind can replicate this. ie: I love having a howling tailwind pushing me along for an hour or so... I can bury myself much more hammering with a tail at 50kmph than I can riding into a strong head wind at 25kmph. Just seems easier to deal with the pain and find the motivation when you are really screaming along.
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Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby foo on patrol » Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:56 pm

The only thing that came remotely close to motor pace training a was a 20Klm scratch race I road in at one of the State Titles in the Senior ranks where it was done
at 55kmh average speed. This was the closest I ever came to the same buzz as motor pace training and I have sat buses and semis' at 100Kmh for quite some distance. 8) :mrgreen:

I'm not a techo person but it just helped to get speed into my legs and hold speed for long anyway it just works. If you have not tried it for any length of time or tried it at all,
then it is hard to explain it to. :?

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Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby bigfriendlyvegan » Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:57 pm

sogood wrote:So to further break down the benefits of motor pacing, where are the specific benefits?

1) Having another soul who can shout and motivate you?
2) Having a visual focus just ahead of you that allows you to concentrate on?
3) Drafting and ride at higher speed without additional power?

Guess my question is, can the same benefits be attained by having a motor rider riding beside and 1/2 a bike length ahead i.e. Without the draft? And a further question is, is there really nothing that can be an alternative to "motor pacing"? Curious.


At the winter track series at Dunc Gray, we do some motorpace events, but we also do Madison Follows. Basically, the guys in Div 1 (rep level riders) do Madison changes and we follow them around, passing over the top of them when they change and chasing the flung rider to re-establish the paceline. This gets us up to pretty much the same pace as we would with a motorbike (at least for us in old and fat division), it gives us experience riding behind a madison change and it gives the Div 1 guys a chance to warm up before the madisons later on that night.

With our juniors we run human keirins with one of the adults as the derny. He carefully watches his Garmin and accelerates carefully lap by lap to a pre-determined speed, then pulls off with a lap to go (this is for the juniors and on a 440 m course). We also do human derny races with the juniors where they sit in behind an adult each and race.

So to answer your last questions, yes, putting a rabbit before the greyhounds is good and taking draft off a faster rider (or pair of riders) is good too.

Actually, speaking of rabbits and greyhounds, we do half field pursuits, where the fast guys start at scratch and the slow guys have a 1/2 lap advantage. When the teams come together, it's a scratch race. This is what pursuits are really meant to be, though the pursuits you see at higher levels are really just time trials with two people on the track at a time.
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Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby sogood » Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:19 pm

bigfriendlyvegan wrote:...yes, putting a rabbit before the greyhounds is good and taking draft off a faster rider (or pair of riders) is good too.

Ummm... I thought we've evolved past this scenario. Or just deep seated animal instinct.

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Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby bigfriendlyvegan » Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:45 pm

sogood wrote:
bigfriendlyvegan wrote:...yes, putting a rabbit before the greyhounds is good and taking draft off a faster rider (or pair of riders) is good too.

Ummm... I thought we've evolved past this scenario. Or just deep seated animal instinct.

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Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby Derny Driver » Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:58 pm

sogood wrote:So to further break down the benefits of motor pacing, where are the specific benefits?

1) Having another soul who can shout and motivate you?
2) Having a visual focus just ahead of you that allows you to concentrate on?
3) Drafting and ride at higher speed without additional power?

Guess my question is, can the same benefits be attained by having a motor rider riding beside and 1/2 a bike length ahead i.e. Without the draft? And a further question is, is there really nothing that can be an alternative to "motor pacing"? Curious.

I dont shout at anyone sogood : )) My riders tell me what they want from the session, and we do it. Its hard to communicate during the session apart from occasional words or signals. Motorpacing on the road can be quite tricky. Undulations, hills, wind direction all mean that the effort behind the bike is never constant. The rider may be freewheeling down hill but struggling to hold the bike on a false flat. Getting it right takes a lot of practise. For the rider, he knows that the moto waits for no-one, it is relentless, and if you slip a metre out of the sweet draft spot, you will go from 50kph to 30 in seconds. so that is motivational. Getting dropped wastes times as the moto must slow dow, then recover the rider, and build the speed back up. It interrupts the effort and lessens the benefits. So thats the motivator. Its like in a race when you know that if you get dropped, it is race over and so you have to make a massive effort to hold on. In training, psychologically its difficult to replicate race type efforts. this is where the moto helps. Thats your 2nd point.
Track sessions are different. A track bike has just one gear, a big gear, and if you went to the velodrome on your own you would do 5 laps and be buggered. Rest for 10 minutes and do another 5 laps .... A moto brings you up to that good speed, 40, 45, 50kph or whatever and you can do an hour, 2 hours, and get some decent training done. Its not a cakewalk riding at that speed even if you are in a draft. Its a good hard session. You could replicate it with a paceline of 6 other blokes but there are some great drills you can do with a moto.

Some of my favourite drills for the velodrome include:
On-offs. Off speed may be, say 40kph, on speed 55-60. At off speed the rider does a number of laps behind the scooter at 40kph and then the derny accelerates to 60kph for the "on" laps. At the end of the on laps the rider sprints past the derny at the finish line, swings up and decelerates, huffing and puffing. The derny slows and he immediately gets back behind it. It could be something like 17 laps "off" and 3 on, or 10 off and 5 on, of 5 off and 5 on ... depending on the riders fitness and how close to the event he is.
Take a lap. Riders sit behind the moto doing 40kph mid-high on track. Front rider drops to the black line and accelerates to 45-49kph, makes an effort for 2-3 minutes until he laps the field and tags back on to the group. The next rider (front one, behind the moto) goes and takes his lap while the others 'rest' at 40kph behind the derny. If there are lots of riders they can lap in pairs. Or riders can start to take their lap when the previous rider gets halfway around.
4 lap builds. Rider or a pair of riders sit behind derny at 35kph for lap 1, speed builds to 40kph on 2nd lap, 45kph on 3rd lap, 50kph on last lap. In back straight the riders come off the derny at 50kph and accelerate/sprint past and try to beat the moto to the finish line. They then sit up and circulate high resting as next rider does his 4 lap drill.
Chases. Rider cruises high on the track at 35kph. Derny circulates behind, then accelerates to 45kph and times his pass when the rider is high on the banking. When the rider sees the derny below him he swoops down and chases it. The derny will have a decent gap but the rider is doing 50kph+ and the derny 45 so after 8-10 seconds of massive effort the rider will be in the draft. Derny driver has gradually accelerated to about 52kph as the rider tags on to the back and they do 3 laps at 52-55kph before the rider swings off on lap 3 (no sprint required on this one). This is the drill I was doing with Danny in the youtube clip at DGV.

So much of the derny work is race simulation, both road and track. These are high intensity efforts which form a part of a riders preparation for a specific event. The above examples I hope help you to see that motorpacing is not just twiddling along behind a motorbike in the draft. Its a bit more complex than that, even on the road. Im not sure that it would be correct to say that motorpacing means that you are riding at higher speed without additional power. The power outputs would be higher than any training ride you could do on your own or with a mate.
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Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby sogood » Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:07 pm

Thanks!
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