Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

open topic, for anything cycling related.

Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby brentono » Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:05 am

I dont shout at anyone sogood : )) My riders tell me what they want from the session, and we do it. Its hard to communicate during the session apart from occasional words or signals. Motorpacing on the road can be quite tricky. Undulations, hills, wind direction all mean that the effort behind the bike is never constant. The rider may be freewheeling down hill but struggling to hold the bike on a false flat. Getting it right takes a lot of practise. For the rider, he knows that the moto waits for no-one, it is relentless, and if you slip a metre out of the sweet draft spot, you will go from 50kph to 30 in seconds. so that is motivational. Getting dropped wastes times as the moto must slow dow, then recover the rider, and build the speed back up. It interrupts the effort and lessens the benefits. So thats the motivator. Its like in a race when you know that if you get dropped, it is race over and so you have to make a massive effort to hold on. In training, psychologically its difficult to replicate race type efforts. this is where the moto helps. Thats your 2nd point.
Track sessions are different. A track bike has just one gear, a big gear, and if you went to the velodrome on your own you would do 5 laps and be buggered. Rest for 10 minutes and do another 5 laps .... A moto brings you up to that good speed, 40, 45, 50kph or whatever and you can do an hour, 2 hours, and get some decent training done. Its not a cakewalk riding at that speed even if you are in a draft. Its a good hard session. You could replicate it with a paceline of 6 other blokes but there are some great drills you can do with a moto.

Some of my favourite drills for the velodrome include:
On-offs. Off speed may be, say 40kph, on speed 55-60. At off speed the rider does a number of laps behind the scooter at 40kph and then the derny accelerates to 60kph for the "on" laps. At the end of the on laps the rider sprints past the derny at the finish line, swings up and decelerates, huffing and puffing. The derny slows and he immediately gets back behind it. It could be something like 17 laps "off" and 3 on, or 10 off and 5 on, of 5 off and 5 on ... depending on the riders fitness and how close to the event he is.
Take a lap. Riders sit behind the moto doing 40kph mid-high on track. Front rider drops to the black line and accelerates to 45-49kph, makes an effort for 2-3 minutes until he laps the field and tags back on to the group. The next rider (front one, behind the moto) goes and takes his lap while the others 'rest' at 40kph behind the derny. If there are lots of riders they can lap in pairs. Or riders can start to take their lap when the previous rider gets halfway around.
4 lap builds. Rider or a pair of riders sit behind derny at 35kph for lap 1, speed builds to 40kph on 2nd lap, 45kph on 3rd lap, 50kph on last lap. In back straight the riders come off the derny at 50kph and accelerate/sprint past and try to beat the moto to the finish line. They then sit up and circulate high resting as next rider does his 4 lap drill.
Chases. Rider cruises high on the track at 35kph. Derny circulates behind, then accelerates to 45kph and times his pass when the rider is high on the banking. When the rider sees the derny below him he swoops down and chases it. The derny will have a decent gap but the rider is doing 50kph+ and the derny 45 so after 8-10 seconds of massive effort the rider will be in the draft. Derny driver has gradually accelerated to about 52kph as the rider tags on to the back and they do 3 laps at 52-55kph before the rider swings off on lap 3 (no sprint required on this one). This is the drill I was doing with Danny in the youtube clip at DGV.

So much of the derny work is race simulation, both road and track. These are high intensity efforts which form a part of a riders preparation for a specific event. The above examples I hope help you to see that motorpacing is not just twiddling along behind a motorbike in the draft. Its a bit more complex than that, even on the road. Im not sure that it would be correct to say that motorpacing means that you are riding at higher speed without additional power. The power outputs would be higher than any training ride you could do on your own or with a mate.


Derny Driver
Great summary of what happens, and most should be grateful for your effort.
But it will truly leave most realising, the level required to perform in Cycling.
Personally had used most methods available with pacing, on the Track (84/87")
and on the Road (with fixed, usually 76-81" depending)
When I spoke of "Sprinting off the motorcycle pacer" much like what your doing
with your on/offs. Most of the stuff we did was, one rider (maybe two)
People must understand that the moment you move off the pacer, you are
exposed (as you would be coming off another rider) and that is at high speed.
Simulating race finishes. Pure pacing, gives speed, stamina and resolution to stay.
In solo (or two riders) methods, on the track, we did sprints every 5/6 laps.
On the Road, very straight, very quiet, section... with a couple of kilos to windup.
You know your stuff, and must enjoy it. True, good pacers are like Gold.
Cheers
:mrgreen:

Edit:to add Derny driver's quote... worth a re-read. :D
Lone Rider- I rode on the long, dark road... before I danced under the lights.
User avatar
brentono
 
Posts: 3673
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:33 pm
Location: Perth DubyaEh.

by BNA » Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:53 pm

BNA
 

Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby Derny Driver » Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:53 pm

brentono wrote:

Some of my favourite drills for the velodrome include:
On-offs. .....
Take a lap. .....
4 lap builds. ...
Chases. .....

... These are high intensity efforts which form a part of a riders preparation for a specific event. ......


Derny Driver
Great summary of what happens, and most should be grateful for your effort.
But it will truly leave most realising, the level required to perform in Cycling.
Personally had used most methods available with pacing, on the Track (84/87")
and on the Road (with fixed, usually 76-81" depending)
When I spoke of "Sprinting off the motorcycle pacer" much like what your doing
with your on/offs. Most of the stuff we did was, one rider (maybe two)
People must understand that the moment you move off the pacer, you are
exposed (as you would be coming off another rider) and that is at high speed.
Simulating race finishes. Pure pacing, gives speed, stamina and resolution to stay.
In solo (or two riders) methods, on the track, we did sprints every 5/6 laps.
On the Road, very straight, very quiet, section... with a couple of kilos to windup.
You know your stuff, and must enjoy it. True, good pacers are like Gold.
Cheers
:mrgreen:

Edit:to add Derny driver's quote... worth a re-read. :D

We occasionally do sprints off the moto on the road too. On the road i just take 1 rider at a time. On the track multiple riders can be accommodated.

You mentioned the effort required... Last year I had 2 blokes go to the world masters track championships in Manchester. I did individual track sessions for them both. The sessions went something like this: 60 lap warm up at 42kph. 10 sets of Chases. 10 minute break. 10 sets of Builds. 60 lap warm down. Every second day!
I should add neither of them came back with the stripey jersey despite all that work!
In 2009 I did 32 straight track sessions (similar to above) for a bloke and he won the world points race by a single point.
Its hectic stuff!!
User avatar
Derny Driver
 
Posts: 639
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:18 am
Location: Wollongong

Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby brentono » Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:33 pm

Thanks Derny Driver, a long time ago, but your talking my language.
Spent numerous years, at every good moment, hung off the back of a pacer.
To the point where, a memory of spending 5 hours in the emergency ward,
on Christmas Day from a morning sprint session fall (pothole) on road
at 60K and bouncing off the bitumen. Skin loss 30%. Back riding next day.
That was my crazy commitment. But it spoilt, that years, Christmas Day.
You must be a pro.
:mrgreen:
Lone Rider- I rode on the long, dark road... before I danced under the lights.
User avatar
brentono
 
Posts: 3673
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:33 pm
Location: Perth DubyaEh.

Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby foo on patrol » Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:08 pm

I think motor paced training shows you how quick you can go in a sprint. In the sprints at Ipswich Velodrome, we would get my dad to hit the start line at 60Kmh and then build to 75Kmh down the home straight and you would be just about passing out trying to keep up :lol: ( about 3 bike lengths off the back of the bike.)

My best 200mtr time chasing the bike was 11.3sec and this is why despite being an endurance rider I could give the real sprinters plenty of stick, if the race was hard enough that is. :mrgreen: ( oh this was only on a 92.5inc gear)

Foo
I don't suffer fools easily and so long as you have done your best,you should have no regrets.
Goal 6000km
Image
User avatar
foo on patrol
 
Posts: 4383
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 10:12 am
Location: Sanstone Point QLD

Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby Derny Driver » Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:24 pm

brentono wrote:You must be a pro.
:mrgreen:

No, wish I was a Pro. i just heard today that Richie Porte pays some dude 35,000 euros a year to derny pace him around Monaco. I wouldnt mind that job.

That crash of yours sounded nasty - touch wood but Ive never had anyone crash behind my moto in all the years ive been doing it. I would hate that to happen.
User avatar
Derny Driver
 
Posts: 639
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:18 am
Location: Wollongong

Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby Derny Driver » Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:34 pm

foo on patrol wrote:
My best 200mtr time chasing the bike was 11.3sec and this is why despite being an endurance rider I could give the real sprinters plenty of stick, if the race was hard enough that is. :mrgreen: ( oh this was only on a 92.5inc gear)

Foo

Impressive time! Most sprinters would be happy with that indoors and on a bigger gear.

Actually your reference to being an endurance rider who learned to sprint is very valid. I have a pet hate - people who label themselves as 'a climber" or "a sprinter" or " a time trialler" or some other self limiting box they put themselves in. Ive had 15 year old kids tell me they always get beaten in the sprint so instead of simply learning how to sprint, they give themselves a label "oh Im an endurance rider" or something as an excuse.
If a person has a perceived or real weakness in their cycling, then spend some time working on that aspect. Learn to be an all round cyclist. Dont put yourself in a box.
User avatar
Derny Driver
 
Posts: 639
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:18 am
Location: Wollongong

Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby bigfriendlyvegan » Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:39 pm

Derny Driver wrote:
foo on patrol wrote:
My best 200mtr time chasing the bike was 11.3sec and this is why despite being an endurance rider I could give the real sprinters plenty of stick, if the race was hard enough that is. :mrgreen: ( oh this was only on a 92.5inc gear)

Foo

Impressive time! Most sprinters would be happy with that indoors and on a bigger gear.

Actually your reference to being an endurance rider who learned to sprint is very valid. I have a pet hate - people who label themselves as 'a climber" or "a sprinter" or " a time trialler" or some other self limiting box they put themselves in. Ive had 15 year old kids tell me they always get beaten in the sprint so instead of simply learning how to sprint, they give themselves a label "oh Im an endurance rider" or something as an excuse.
If a person has a perceived or real weakness in their cycling, then spend some time working on that aspect. Learn to be an all round cyclist. Dont put yourself in a box.


I agree. People should work on other people perceiving a weakness. That way one could go off the front early in a points race and no one will chase them. Then that one could take the first sprint and, finding himself half a lap ahead of the field, can continue on to take the second sprint. After that they can die of exhaustion, never having ridden that far and fast before, and still win the race by a point. :D
User avatar
bigfriendlyvegan
 
Posts: 3049
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:18 pm
Location: Denistone, NSW

Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby twizzle » Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:14 am

lammy wrote:Objective = Increase average from 29-30kph to 32-33kph & lower my average heart rate on rides.

Just for some perspective...

When I switched from my Hybrid late 2008/early 2009 to a road bike, my average speed on commutes was around 29 - 30kph, and then I started racing (criteriums) with the vets and ended up in C grade.

These days I average around 32kph for my commutes, and I recently moved to A grade.

Sent from my iThingy...
I ride, therefore I am.
...real cyclists don't have squeaky chains...
User avatar
twizzle
 
Posts: 6382
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:45 am
Location: Taking a break.

Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:35 am

Derny Driver wrote:
foo on patrol wrote:
My best 200mtr time chasing the bike was 11.3sec and this is why despite being an endurance rider I could give the real sprinters plenty of stick, if the race was hard enough that is. :mrgreen: ( oh this was only on a 92.5inc gear)

Foo

Impressive time! Most sprinters would be happy with that indoors and on a bigger gear.

Actually your reference to being an endurance rider who learned to sprint is very valid. I have a pet hate - people who label themselves as 'a climber" or "a sprinter" or " a time trialler" or some other self limiting box they put themselves in. Ive had 15 year old kids tell me they always get beaten in the sprint so instead of simply learning how to sprint, they give themselves a label "oh Im an endurance rider" or something as an excuse.
If a person has a perceived or real weakness in their cycling, then spend some time working on that aspect. Learn to be an all round cyclist. Dont put yourself in a box.


Even if you are a more enduro type (let's face it, our fast twitch fibres are granted to us genetically - not a lot one can do about that), one doesn't need to be the best sprinter, just the best sprinter of those left at the end of the race. And it's a craft as much as a power profile and is something any rider looking to race should practice. Drills like those Brentono talks about are perfect.
User avatar
Alex Simmons/RST
Expert
 
Posts: 3406
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:51 pm

Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby brentono » Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:18 am

As the OP asks to improve riding power and speed, with HIT, I think we have
got pretty close to the pinnacle of that form of Training.
Thanks Alex, those drills were perfected, but as we all understand it's hard work.
Alex is fully conversant with the modern scientific methods and measurement,
and we agree that rider "types" can be improved with specialised training methods.
A more balanced "type" of rider, with skills in all areas, will be more competitive.
Work from the basic and build on that, was how I understood it.
Think it still holds water, today.
Cheers
:mrgreen:

Derny Driver wrote:
brentono wrote:You must be a pro.
:mrgreen:

i just heard today that Richie Porte pays some dude 35,000 euros a year to derny pace him around Monaco.

Derny Driver, mate, if they were paying that here, I'd be doing it too :D
Lone Rider- I rode on the long, dark road... before I danced under the lights.
User avatar
brentono
 
Posts: 3673
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:33 pm
Location: Perth DubyaEh.

Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:35 am

brentono wrote:As the OP asks to improve riding power and speed, with HIT, I think we have
got pretty close to the pinnacle of that form of Training.
Thanks Alex, those drills were perfected, but as we all understand it's hard work.
Alex is fully conversant with the modern scientific methods and measurement,
and we agree that rider "types" can be improved with specialised training methods.
A more balanced "type" of rider, with skills in all areas, will be more competitive.
Work from the basic and build on that, was how I understood it.
Think it still holds water, today.
Cheers
:mrgreen:

Derny Driver wrote:
brentono wrote:You must be a pro.
:mrgreen:

i just heard today that Richie Porte pays some dude 35,000 euros a year to derny pace him around Monaco.

Derny Driver, mate, if they were paying that here, I'd be doing it too :D

Might depend on what's in the saddle bags!! :shock: :lol:
User avatar
Alex Simmons/RST
Expert
 
Posts: 3406
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:51 pm

Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby brentono » Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:52 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:Might depend on what's in the saddle bags!! :shock: :lol:

Not quite sure what you mean, Alex... Gene Autry had saddle bags!! :)
Having experience, but no inclination, I'd rather be riding the Pacer Motorbike,
than be behind it. And if I did it, it would be Pro. 8)
:mrgreen:
Lone Rider- I rode on the long, dark road... before I danced under the lights.
User avatar
brentono
 
Posts: 3673
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:33 pm
Location: Perth DubyaEh.

Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby foo on patrol » Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:37 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:Even if you are a more enduro type (let's face it, our fast twitch fibres are granted to us genetically - not a lot one can do about that), one doesn't need to be the best sprinter, just the best sprinter of those left at the end of the race. And it's a craft as much as a power profile and is something any rider looking to race should practice. Drills like those Brentono talks about are perfect.


No argument from me on these statements. It is all about will power combined with your ability. :idea:

Just keep smashing the sprinters through the longer races and you might just get a big surprise at the finish line. :mrgreen:

Foo
I don't suffer fools easily and so long as you have done your best,you should have no regrets.
Goal 6000km
Image
User avatar
foo on patrol
 
Posts: 4383
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 10:12 am
Location: Sanstone Point QLD

Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby mikesbytes » Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:42 am

Interesting thread

sogood, you should do a couple of sessions at Tempe velodrome, a bike can be arranged for you.
bigfriendlyvegan, we should go for a ride sometime. I was going to come to Lidcome last night, but I injured myself in the gym in the morning.
derny driver, would love to race you in a points race.
alex, would be great to see you return to racing, understand you had some challenges that knocked you out.
brentenono, your accident sounds scary, I've had 4 high speed accidents in 5 years... oh dear

While I'm extremely fit, I do virtually no bike racing specific training and it shows in my lack of top end sprint. if derny driver recalls me in Wollongong, most races I ended up just outside the placings, for want of a better term, I was the first of the non sprinters. As I have little bandwidth for bike racing specific training, I've searched for info on exactly what favours top end sprint, so to use this info to influence my job as a spin instructor.

Anyway back to the original topic. I do see some problems with using heart rate as a guide;
  1. Most do not know what their max heart rate is, so how do they correctly set zones
  2. Latency gives a distorted view of short intervals. And what happens in-between the intervals influences the figure for the interval itself

I've done some rides with a heart rate monitor and I've also done some spin classes. I got higher heart rates bike commuting to the gym than I got in the spin class despite working much harder in the class itself.

Where I did find the heart rate monitor useful was when I'm ride captain with slow riders, I can use the heart rate to judge how hard they are riding and not kill them off in the process.
A helmet saved my life
User avatar
mikesbytes
Super Mod
Super Mod
 
Posts: 14766
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:42 pm
Location: Tempe, Sydney

Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby sogood » Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:23 am

mikesbytes wrote:sogood, you should do a couple of sessions at Tempe velodrome, a bike can be arranged for you.

Unfortunately all the session times don't match my weekly schedule. :?

IAnyway back to the original topic. I do see some problems with using heart rate as a guide;
  1. Most do not know what their max heart rate is, so how do they correctly set zones
  2. Latency gives a distorted view of short intervals. And what happens in-between the intervals influences the figure for the interval itself

Not quite Mike. HR and Power aren't referenced in short intervals. You just go max out for a fix time period. Analyse it after the session. The anaerobic nature of short intervals are not differentiated on one's HR.

For the less sophisticated punters using age based HR zone table, HRM is an effective psychological tool in training and will help the subject stay focused. At the end of the day, exercise in a lower zone than ideal won't optimise their training efficiency but will still induce measurable improvements and health benefits. No harm done, as long as they are not aiming to win the next TdF or $5 at the club criterium.
Bianchi, Ridley, Montague, GT, Garmin and All things Apple :)
RK wrote:And that is Wikipedia - I can write my own definition.
User avatar
sogood
 
Posts: 16929
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:31 am
Location: Sydney AU

Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby Karati » Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:07 pm

Great thread.

FWIW to the thread starter.

I don't really bother with set training. I have a loose routine of around 150 - 250km or 5 - 8 hours per week and throw in a hard group ride or race (C grade) every fortnight. My training is mostly to and from work and early morning Saturdays. I just ride my bike and try to keep the intensity up. I love a good race and am always looking for someone to chase down or try and drop. These days I can solo over an undulating 6km at over 43km/h average, hit 57+km/h in a sprint given the right conditions and hold my own with guys who have a much more sophisticated training regime than me so I must be doing something right somewhere.

I do have an HRM and a garmin but just for keeping logs, I don't really have any value added from it.

My advice, don't invest too much at your level in complicated schedules and zones, just get out and ride the best you can, back yourself and have fun.

P.S. Hydration and half decent nutrition will make a huge difference!
Karati
 
Posts: 187
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:28 pm

Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:12 pm

Karati wrote:... and hold my own with guys who have a much more sophisticated training regime than me so I must be doing something right somewhere.

Sounds like you picked your parents wisely. :wink:
User avatar
Alex Simmons/RST
Expert
 
Posts: 3406
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:51 pm

Previous

Return to General discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: bychosis, jasonc, MisuVir



Popular Bike Shops
Torpedo 7 Torpedo7 AU
Ground Effect Ground Effect NZ
Chain Reaction Cycles CRC UK
Wiggle Wiggle UK
Ebay Ebay AU

“Bicycles BNA Twitter
“Bicycles BNA Facebook
“Google+ BNA Google+
“Bicycles BNA Newsletter

> FREE BNA Stickers
> BNA Cycling Kit