To Ding or not to Ding

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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby Mulger bill » Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:39 pm

Anybody run one of THESE?
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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by BNA » Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:56 pm

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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby twizzle » Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:56 pm

il padrone wrote:http://www.rbbell.com/


Gee... just clip on an exposed cable, eh? I think Tiagra still has exposed cables.

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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby il padrone » Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:18 pm

Mulger bill wrote:Anybody run one of THESE?

No, but I use one of these. Works quite well, no problems. I might be fussy and want a slightly deeper "ting", but that's only because I have the rather lurvely Lowrider bell, with its mellow "Ding DONG" tone, on the other bike.

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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby Mulger bill » Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:31 pm

Thanks Pete but I doubt the grip unit would be comfortable on me drop bars, that's the main consideration ATM.

Thanks again for putting the Lowrider vid in, that IS a more than rather lurvely sound. Methinks that'd work on the FG and the Velogear Bell Grande would slot nicely onto the Urban Assault Voodoo.

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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby KenGS » Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:39 pm

Mirrycle also have a headset mount bell which you use in place of a stem spacer. I'm trying one out to see if I like it.
http://www.mirrycle.com/headset_mount.php
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby bychosis » Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:50 pm

Here is an example of why I don't always ding.



Noticed peds walking up ahead, one on the right of the path, looking like they were wandering, not walking. Slowed, dinged and expected some sort of reaction, just not what I got. Mum heads off the path to the right and then grabs daughter to pull her off to the right too into my path. Emergency brake, evade, "whoa, go left, go left" response "sorry, sorry, sorry" from mum. Think they were walking along in a world of their own and the motherly instinct to protect child caused more problems than they should have.
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby twizzle » Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:05 pm

I'd forgotten about this one. Many years ago (~26?) I was flying along a bike path (in those days, anyway) , a couple ahead were walking and blocking the path, I rang the bell and they went separate ways... and then the woman decided she wanted to be on the same side of the path as the man and tried to cross back. Rear wheel locked, I slid to a halt with the front wheel about 20cm from hitting the woman who had frozen in panic in front of me when she realised she wasn't going to make it.

I'm not so stupid these days to expect that people will behave rationally.


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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby twizzle » Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:12 pm

bychosis wrote:Here is an example of why I don't always ding.

Noticed peds walking up ahead....


Ummm... given we aren't allowed to hit peds., what would you have done if they had just ignored you? Because it looked to me that you were expecting them to move out of your way and were going too quick to stop.

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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby il padrone » Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:25 pm

twizzle wrote:Ummm... given we aren't allowed to hit peds., what would you have done if they had just ignored you? Because it looked to me that you were expecting them to move out of your way and were going too quick to stop.

Go Pro? The wide angle lens does tend to exaggerate the speed of travel. Looked to me like he was on the brakes, did come to a near stop, and would have completed it if they had not moved.
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby jcjordan » Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:30 pm

RonK wrote:
twizzle wrote:The general assumption (based on experience) is that headphones result in complete loss of awareness for the wearer.

Only pedestrians though - cycling wearers never loose awareness. ;)


Regardless of who is wearing them none should loose awareness. They are not turn our only sense and these days with cars that are so quite that even on a back road you don't hear them till they have gone past are not one that I put much reliance on
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby bychosis » Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:41 pm

il padrone wrote:
twizzle wrote:Ummm... given we aren't allowed to hit peds., what would you have done if they had just ignored you? Because it looked to me that you were expecting them to move out of your way and were going too quick to stop.

Go Pro? The wide angle lens does tend to exaggerate the speed of travel. Looked to me like he was on the brakes, did come to a near stop, and would have completed it if they had not moved.


Yes, GoPro, travelling 26km/h at the time. After riding the path for several years commuting I can usually pick when something is awry with the pedestrians and am prepared for evasive action. In this case slowed, dinged, covered brakes... then used them to great effect. Had the daughter not been dragged right I would have slipped through the gap safely at probably 15-17km/h under brakes. As it was the phone GPS got me as low as 13km/h.

Edited for actual speeds.
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby outnabike » Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:40 pm

bychosis wrote:
il padrone wrote:
twizzle wrote:Ummm... given we aren't allowed to hit peds., what would you have done if they had just ignored you? Because it looked to me that you were expecting them to move out of your way and were going too quick to stop.

Go Pro? The wide angle lens does tend to exaggerate the speed of travel. Looked to me like he was on the brakes, did come to a near stop, and would have completed it if they had not moved.


Yes, GoPro, travelling 26km/h at the time. After riding the path for several years commuting I can usually pick when something is awry with the pedestrians and am prepared for evasive action. In this case slowed, dinged, covered brakes... then used them to great effect. Had the daughter not been dragged right I would have slipped through the gap safely at probably 15-17km/h under brakes. As it was the phone GPS got me as low as 13km/h.

Edited for actual speeds.


Hi bychosis,I would not approach a pedestrian at that speed. And the daughter "was not dragged right"

And I reckon you are mistaken as to sheep like behaviour. The girl instinctively followed mum who was quickly off the path. Seems pretty natural to me. My daughter would go to mum I would say.

In the rush to avoid the impending collision, you saw the lady take her daughters hand at the last minute to get her off the path quickly.
But it was the daughter that went right of her own volition prior to any contact with mum. And quickly!

No probs though, and a good miss.

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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby CaptainFur » Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:16 pm

I regularly ride a shared path. I used to have a bell that I always rang and got the response that they either moved over or at least knew i was coming sometimes they just wouldn't hear me or often they would not hear the bell untill I was fairly close and it would give them a bit of a shock.

I have since changed to a horn and love it, I can honk earlier knowing that they will hear it with out getting a shock and usually get a smile from the people I am passing.
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby il padrone » Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:29 pm

outnabike wrote:Hi bychosis,I would not approach a pedestrian at that speed. And the daughter "was not dragged right"

Seems pretty normal for wide, open bike path riding speed to me. 26kmh general speed, then slowing as I approach any pedestrians. If the pedestrians are predictable, there's good room and I've dinged them with the bell, I will normally go past at ~20kmh; a bit less if it is a tighter space.



outnabike wrote:And I reckon you are mistaken as to sheep like behaviour. The girl instinctively followed mum who was quickly off the path.

Strange statement?? Your second sentence is a textbook definition of sheep-like behaviour :?
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby sli123 » Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:38 pm

Ding if you need to.
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby casual_cyclist » Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:08 am

il padrone wrote:
outnabike wrote:Hi bychosis,I would not approach a pedestrian at that speed. And the daughter "was not dragged right"

Seems pretty normal for wide, open bike path riding speed to me. 26kmh general speed, then slowing as I approach any pedestrians. If the pedestrians are predictable, there's good room and I've dinged them with the bell, I will normally go past at ~20kmh; a bit less if it is a tighter space.

Agreed. And there is plenty of room to bail onto the grass too if necessary. I have done that when I couldn't be bothered waiting for the peds to sort themselves out (not to avoid a collision) but then I'm running 32s so it's no hassle for me.
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby citywomble » Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:37 am

Hi,

Bailing onto the grass is a bad option. The grass is the peds domain not yours.

In the road reserve that would be 'driving' onto the verge - not permitted, and in a park that is even worse. Local laws do not permit any vehicle to drive (or ride) off of the permitted path.

In WA an Indian tourist, part of a group on a shared path, was killed when he stepped onto his safe refuge and a cyclist rode (bailed onto the grass) knocked him over, hit head on path, died. Bad idea, keep off the grass and on the path, especially when around peds - that is where they run to just like the daughter in the vid.

On a shared path always treat all peds like a give way sign, slow down to about 10k, and if you can't give 'a metre matters' then treat them as a stop sign and wait. That is how to share.

A cyclists obligation is to give way - whatever. A pedestrians is only not to obstruct deliberately.

Bikes, single file only and keep left. Peds no actual restrictions - in WA anyway are permitted (not encouraged) to walk on the right facing oncoming vehicles (read bikes) just like they must on the road.
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby twizzle » Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:05 am

bychosis wrote:Yes, GoPro, travelling 26km/h at the time. ....


Ah, O.K. wide angle. Throwing the words "emergency brake" into the original description also adds to the look of speed, I did watch it four times trying to get a handle on how fast it happened.

However - 13kph sounds slow but is still ~3.6 metres per second. And I'm afraid I also saw it as the daughter heading right on her own before being grabbed at the last second.

Dunno what to think about this whole thing - the mother was obviously scared for her daughters safety at the end.

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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby arkle » Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:51 am

bychosis wrote:Here is an example of why I don't always ding.



Noticed peds walking up ahead, one on the right of the path, looking like they were wandering, not walking. Slowed, dinged and expected some sort of reaction, just not what I got. Mum heads off the path to the right and then grabs daughter to pull her off to the right too into my path. Emergency brake, evade, "whoa, go left, go left" response "sorry, sorry, sorry" from mum. Think they were walking along in a world of their own and the motherly instinct to protect child caused more problems than they should have.


You dung far, far, far too late. I'd have been dinging from MUCH further back. You give them almost no time to respond at that speed.

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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby twizzle » Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:37 am

I deliberately slowed to 13kph this morning. Damn, that feels slow! It certainly looks faster in a vid.
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby newie » Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:01 pm

Gee you are a hard lot. Despite some very unpredictable behaviour by those pedestrians, bychosis didn't even come close to hitting them. Doesn't that indicate he was riding appropriately to the conditions? I believe his original point was to show us an example of how the bell can cause an unpredictable response, which was well demonstrated by the video.
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby InTheWoods » Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:14 pm

arkle wrote:
bychosis wrote:Here is an example of why I don't always ding.



Noticed peds walking up ahead, one on the right of the path, looking like they were wandering, not walking. Slowed, dinged and expected some sort of reaction, just not what I got. Mum heads off the path to the right and then grabs daughter to pull her off to the right too into my path. Emergency brake, evade, "whoa, go left, go left" response "sorry, sorry, sorry" from mum. Think they were walking along in a world of their own and the motherly instinct to protect child caused more problems than they should have.


You dung far, far, far too late. I'd have been dinging from MUCH further back. You give them almost no time to respond at that speed.

arkle


+1. I think I hear a faint ding (a failed one?) at 0:09 then a louder one, and the pedestrians are in panic mode cos you're on them by 0:11. If you give people time they'll sort themselves out much more safely, and won't go home having just had the crap scared out of them by a cyclist on a shared path. You had enough time to give a ding much further back - maybe you did and I just can't hear it - but I can hear the others when you get really close. Given that the path is narrow and they don't have to get off the path to get out of your way (eg. they could go single file or walk closer together), it seems that if you needed to emergency brake, you were going too fast.
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby twizzle » Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:20 pm

People talking often don't hear a damned thing.

Yes, the discussion comes across as a bit harsh, but the vid makes it look questionable even if the reality isn't.

Given the actual speeds as indicated if the follow-up post, it was all quite slow speed, and it *is* a good example of where using a bell has bad consequences.
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby arkle » Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:38 pm

twizzle wrote:People talking often don't hear a damned thing.

Yes, the discussion comes across as a bit harsh, but the vid makes it look questionable even if the reality isn't.

Given the actual speeds as indicated if the follow-up post, it was all quite slow speed, and it *is* a good example of where using a bell has bad consequences.


No it isn't. It's an example of using a bell badly. Regardless of speed, 2.5 seconds to hear a quiet ding, recognise it's meaning, turn, look, decide to move and move is an impossibly short time.

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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby AndrewBurns » Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:47 pm

The problem was more that they reacted by going the wrong way which is exactly what this thread is about. Instead of hearing the ding and going to their side singe-file briefly they went exactly the wrong way and blocked the path for longer. Yes it's a shared path but that doesn't mean the pedestrians don't have some responsibility to not run around like oblivious chickens.
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