To Ding or not to Ding

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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby il padrone » Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:51 pm

1. Use a bell that gives a decent sound (it really does not need to be super loud)

2. Give an early ring when 20-30 metres away.

3. If there is no response and/or you are unsure of their attention, ring again at 10 metres away and slow to allow for any erratic response.

I have really very little problem with this approach. Often I find that I'm happy enough with the situation not to even need to ring eg. pedestrian has heard my tyre noise and turned earlier.
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby outnabike » Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:53 pm

il padrone wrote:
outnabike wrote:Hi bychosis,I would not approach a pedestrian at that speed. And the daughter "was not dragged right"

Seems pretty normal for wide, open bike path riding speed to me. 26kmh general speed, then slowing as I approach any pedestrians. If the pedestrians are predictable, there's good room and I've dinged them with the bell, I will normally go past at ~20kmh; a bit less if it is a tighter space.



outnabike wrote:And I reckon you are mistaken as to sheep like behaviour. The girl instinctively followed mum who was quickly off the path.

Strange statement?? Your second sentence is a textbook definition of sheep-like behaviour :?


Yes I suppose it is sheep like, It just looked by the body language that she got a fright and jumped really quickly. Too quickly even for the eye to see until you do a freeze frame. that seems a quick reaction to a late call. I pass peds at 10 kays as I have seen the same thing.
I had no intention to say the rider was wrong but just seemed a touch fast.
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby merlin6014 » Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:27 pm

I don't use a bell or call out. I just slow down, take a wide birth and freewheel - the hubs make a nice clicking loud sound anyway.

I apply the same principal as when riding a motorbike - never get between a car and its exit. Ive noticed most ped close calls are when they turn across the path to exit.

Having said all that they are damn unpredictable.
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby bychosis » Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:11 pm

outnabike wrote:Yes I suppose it is sheep like, It just looked by the body language that she got a fright and jumped really quickly. Too quickly even for the eye to see until you do a freeze frame. that seems a quick reaction to a late call. I pass peds at 10 kays as I have seen the same thing.
I had no intention to say the rider was wrong but just seemed a touch fast.


I'd be surprised if you do actually drop to 10km/h, it's pretty slow, have you checked a speedo while doing so? If you do fair enough, but I would guess that most people would think 15km/h is resonable for passing if not 20km/h. outnabike next time you are riding along a shared path please cycle past at your usual speed then check your speedo and report back.

I do note that the signage on our shared path does say bikes are limited to 10km/h and think that is ridiculously slow for a cyclist. Even 20km/h is slowish for a cruise but probably at the upper limits for pedestrian/cyclist interation and safety. By all means open the taps when there is noone around but don't expect to be travelling at 30km/h where there are others on the path.

merlin6014 wrote:I don't use a bell or call out. I just slow down, take a wide birth and freewheel - the hubs make a nice clicking loud sound anyway.


When I'm on knobblies on the MTB i need far less dinging than on the very near silent fixie.
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby Coolabah » Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:52 pm

arkle wrote:I agree with il padrone. I ride on shared paths a lot and I ding my bell for everyone I pass and I've never had anyone get upset or say anything bad to me.

arkle



+1 . I have had many "thanks for ringing your bell" with a big smile too. Not one grumpy "why did you ring your bell ?". I always ding from a fair way behind , slow down, and say " good morning " or "thanks" as I pass. If they don't hear ( eg - wearing headphones) , I basically slow to walking pace and try to get their attention with my voice ( NEVER my airzound !!).

I like to think that we should treat pedestrians the same way we would love cars to treat us :idea:
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby bychosis » Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:58 pm

Coolabah wrote:
arkle wrote:I agree with il padrone. I ride on shared paths a lot and I ding my bell for everyone I pass and I've never had anyone get upset or say anything bad to me.

arkle



+1 . I have had many "thanks for ringing your bell" with a big smile too. Not one grumpy "why did you ring your bell ?". I always ding from a fair way behind , slow down, and say " good morning " or "thanks" as I pass. If they don't hear ( eg - wearing headphones) , I basically slow to walking pace and try to get their attention with my voice ( NEVER my airzound !!).

I like to think that we should treat pedestrians the same way we would love cars to treat us :idea:


So you would like cars to toot on approach, then slow to cycling speed every time? I too like to think I treat pedestrians like car should treat cyclists. Passing at a reasonable distance and speed, getting on with the task of driving while passing not concentrating on tooting and waving removing my hands from the controls.
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby il padrone » Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:07 pm

While most cyclists do NOT like cars to continuously toot their horn in warning (because of the often aggressive connotations behind it) most pedestrians do appreciate the information and clarity of a well-timed bell ring. But I do not do it so often when I'm part of a stream of cyclists and the peds are obviously aware and coping.
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby arkle » Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:05 pm

bychosis wrote:
Coolabah wrote:
arkle wrote:I agree with il padrone. I ride on shared paths a lot and I ding my bell for everyone I pass and I've never had anyone get upset or say anything bad to me.

arkle



+1 . I have had many "thanks for ringing your bell" with a big smile too. Not one grumpy "why did you ring your bell ?". I always ding from a fair way behind , slow down, and say " good morning " or "thanks" as I pass. If they don't hear ( eg - wearing headphones) , I basically slow to walking pace and try to get their attention with my voice ( NEVER my airzound !!).

I like to think that we should treat pedestrians the same way we would love cars to treat us :idea:


So you would like cars to toot on approach, then slow to cycling speed every time? I too like to think I treat pedestrians like car should treat cyclists. Passing at a reasonable distance and speed, getting on with the task of driving while passing not concentrating on tooting and waving removing my hands from the controls.


That's a pretty silly comparison. Bikes are unlikely to maim or kill pedestrians, bikes stop and change direction very easily, bikes don't travel as fast as cars, bikes don't weigh two tons, bikes and cars don't share a narrow little path, bikes don't ride slowly down the middle of the road chatting, bikes don't come along in a continuous stream, bikes aren't loud etc. etc.

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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby bychosis » Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:34 pm

Yes, a silly comparison, but when you take things to extremes that's what you get. I'm sure its been mentioned before in this and other threads, if all road and paths users are courteous and consistent in their actions we'll all get on fine.
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby il padrone » Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:46 pm

bychosis wrote:Yes, a silly comparison, but when you take things to extremes that's what you get. I'm sure its been mentioned before in this and other threads, if all road and paths users are courteous and consistent in their actions we'll all get on fine.

And for cyclists, on narrow shared trails, this courtesy includes ringing your bell to give appropriate warning... where require. Pedestrians do appreciate it. :idea:
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby Boognoss » Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:58 pm

il padrone wrote:
bychosis wrote:Yes, a silly comparison, but when you take things to extremes that's what you get. I'm sure its been mentioned before in this and other threads, if all road and paths users are courteous and consistent in their actions we'll all get on fine.

And for cyclists, on narrow shared trails, this courtesy includes ringing your bell to give appropriate warning... where require. Pedestrians do appreciate it. :idea:


I had a good one this arvo on the commute home. Narrow shared path and dinged about 15m out from a mum with her two kids. They all moved to the left of the path, I rolled past at 10kph-ish, I thanked them and both kids and mum acknowledged that with a "that's alright" or "thanks" back.

The system works ;-).


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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby Mulger bill » Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:08 pm

Lovely evenings 50 minute pootle around the local paths on the Fix before dinner, the bell works :D
Still not worth an ounce of dried camel dung wrapped in palm leaves on the road :( Path peds seem to be so much nicer out my way.
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby bychosis » Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:25 am

bychosis wrote:...
1. Courtesy: hello there, I'm approaching on a bike just letting you know. Carry on. ie maintain your line and there will be no issues.
2. Caution: hi, you appear to be a little unaware of your surrounds and don't look like you are maintaining your line and may move into my path.
3. Warning: this is a shared path you are not using shared path etiquette, please move back left etc.
4. Expletive deleted: what the ... are you doing? We just about collided.
...


After the discussions I have been considering my dinging strategies. The shared path I use is wide enough to comfortably walk two people to the left of the centreline marking, leaving plenty of room to overtake. Walking three abreast pushes the third person across the line. Cyclists on it tend not to be racer wannabe's, and are mostly on hybrid bikes enjoying the waterfront. My morning commute is better as the peds are usually out for exercise rather than the afternoon crowd that tends to have a lot more sightseers, prams and kids. Afternoon commutes require more ding. I know I don't own this path and it works so much better when everyone follows shared path etiquette (not rules)

If the pedestrian (or cyclist for that matter) is to the left of the line and in case 1 above I generally dont give a ding. Sometimes they call out 'where's your bell' or similar but mostly we both carry on as normal just like it should happen.

If they are nearer the line case 2 kicks in and ding happens. Mostly they move a little left and we carry on, but sometimes while they are not impeding my path ding will make them jump to the left and drop into single file - I don't want this to happen, in this case it FEELS like I want to be superior and they should get out of MY way which is NOT the case, I am happy to pass by in a reduced space with additional caution and reduced speed.

This morning a group three abreast had reduced the available space to 'not enough' (case 3). Several groups of dings did not elicit a reponse so I wasn't sure wether they hadn't heard me, didn't care or just thought there was enough room to pass anyway. This was frutstrating as a cyclist, I did not want to pass dangerously and did not want to appear to be pushy (just on one :wink:). The response I was looking for was a bit of a change in step to indicate "I am aware of your approach and wont step into you".

Unfortunately pedestrians are not consistent in their reaction or expectation (nor are cyclists) requiring a judgement call ding. I think I mostly get it right, but not always.
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby rdp_au » Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:47 am

Boognoss wrote:
il padrone wrote:
bychosis wrote:Yes, a silly comparison, but when you take things to extremes that's what you get. I'm sure its been mentioned before in this and other threads, if all road and paths users are courteous and consistent in their actions we'll all get on fine.

And for cyclists, on narrow shared trails, this courtesy includes ringing your bell to give appropriate warning... where require. Pedestrians do appreciate it. :idea:


I had a good one this arvo on the commute home. Narrow shared path and dinged about 15m out from a mum with her two kids. They all moved to the left of the path, I rolled past at 10kph-ish, I thanked them and both kids and mum acknowledged that with a "that's alright" or "thanks" back.

The system works ;-).


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+1 My approach is very similar and I find the system does indeed work with an approach like this. It shows an awareness on both sides of what needs to happen to get along.
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby sumgy » Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:03 am

Voice from a decent distance back.
"Bike back".
Repeat at least once.
Pass on right.
Thank pedestrian even if they did not move or acknowledge that I am there.
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby casual_cyclist » Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:36 pm

citywomble wrote:Bailing onto the grass is a bad option. The grass is the peds domain not yours.

In the road reserve that would be 'driving' onto the verge - not permitted, and in a park that is even worse. Local laws do not permit any vehicle to drive (or ride) off of the permitted path.

On a road you would not get into the situation where the entire road way is blocked by people standing around talking. Local laws don't permit peds to delibertlay obstruct the entire path but they frequently do exactly that.

Next time the entire path (in both directions) is block by not moving or slow moving peds and the grass is clear, I will be riding around them again.
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby il padrone » Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:48 pm

casual_cyclist wrote:Next time the entire path (in both directions) is block by not moving or slow moving peds and the grass is clear, I will be riding around them again.

Just please be very careful. Do not go riding through the grass at speed.

Warrandyte Secondary College teacher Robert Graham was thrown from his bike and suffered severe spinal injuries after hitting a culvert in long grass on the Diamond Creek bike trail in February 2007.

The Eltham former champion triathlete died six days after the accident.

He was just riding through the grass to dodge around a group of girls walking along the path.

:(
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby outnabike » Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:37 pm

il padrone wrote:
casual_cyclist wrote:Next time the entire path (in both directions) is block by not moving or slow moving peds and the grass is clear, I will be riding around them again.

Just please be very careful. Do not go riding through the grass at speed.

Warrandyte Secondary College teacher Robert Graham was thrown from his bike and suffered severe spinal injuries after hitting a culvert in long grass on the Diamond Creek bike trail in February 2007.

The Eltham former champion triathlete died six days after the accident.

He was just riding through the grass to dodge around a group of girls walking along the path.

:(


Where I ride the concrete paths are developing quite a tram line edge and I have in the past seen one rider come off. The soil is drying and contracting from the edge.
I am not happy to get off the paths at the moment.
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby casual_cyclist » Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:40 pm

il padrone wrote:
casual_cyclist wrote:Next time the entire path (in both directions) is block by not moving or slow moving peds and the grass is clear, I will be riding around them again.

Just please be very careful. Do not go riding through the grass at speed.

I don't. I ride at slightly faster than walking pace. It's also mown grass so easy to spot any obstacles.
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby MisuVir » Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:17 pm

I ring my bell as I approach and say "thank you" if they moved towards the left - otherwise just "good morning". I get many a "thanks for ringing" and "good morning" in response.

In 7 years of daily riding this shared path, I've only once got a "don't ring unless you're going to hit me". I've also received a single "RING YOUR DAMNED BELL" by someone I can only assume was deaf. In my experience, most people behave reasonably. I've also had two water fowl run straight into my wheels from the side. Crazy birds.

I do also appreciate when overtaking cyclists ring their bell. I tend to jump out of my skin when a bike suddenly blasts past me. It is also disconcerting to do a quick shoulder check and unexpectedly have a bike right in my face.
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby clackers » Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:31 pm

MisuVir wrote:I ring my bell as I approach and say "thank you" if they moved towards the left - otherwise just "good morning". I get many a "thanks for ringing" and "good morning" in response.


Not hard, is it, safety and courtesy? :smile:
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby gorilla monsoon » Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:51 pm

clackers wrote:
MisuVir wrote:I ring my bell as I approach and say "thank you" if they moved towards the left - otherwise just "good morning". I get many a "thanks for ringing" and "good morning" in response.


Not hard, is it, safety and courtesy? :smile:


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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby clackers » Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:59 pm

gorilla monsoon wrote:
Yep, a free and easy PR exercise.


That too. Represent. :grin:
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby Venus62 » Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:45 am

This morning my husband and I went for a gentle ride along the bike paths of Golden Beach in Caloundra. Lovely wide shared pathways next to the water. We were wearing Lycra as we were also doing some more serious riding after but on the path we were riding slowly, ringing a bell to advise of our existence, and generally having a lovely time. Until an old woman sitting on a park bench next to the path commented loudly that we should be on the roads, especially with all our gear (can only assume she was referring to the Lycra as we weren't carrying armed missiles or anything). It just made me so sad that cyclists can't win, even when doing the right thing. Despised on roads by motorists and despised on shared paths by pedestrians. :cry:

Having said that, most pedestrians we encountered were friendly when they saw we weren't trying to mow them down.
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby Nobody » Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:26 am

Venus62 wrote:Despised on roads by motorists and despised on shared paths by pedestrians. :cry:
Welcome to the reality of the Australian (car) culture.
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