Why Cyclists are hated

open topic, for anything cycling related.

Re: Why Cyclists are hated

Postby ausrandoman » Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:10 pm

Yes. Cyclists waiting in the queue not only reduce the chances of annoying motorists but also "training the motorists around you to believe both they and you fit at the same time in the same lane" is a small but useful way to both conform to and encourage the norms of civil society.
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by BNA » Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:16 pm

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Re: Why Cyclists are hated

Postby il padrone » Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:16 pm

ausrandoman wrote:This is a prolix example of my first comment.

No, far from it.

I ride generally in the traffic line, and only overtake (there is no such thing as "lane-splitting" in the road rules) when it is safe and I need to do this. I move to the front for my own safety, not some sort of gloating that you suggest. The following traffic will be delayed (slightly) whether I overtake them to the front or they are forced to wait behind me while in-line. Minimal impact really.

ausrandoman wrote:"training the motorists around you to believe both they and you fit at the same time in the same lane"

:?: :?:

I most certainly do not want motorists in the same lane space as me, at the same time. I'll train them to change lanes fully to overtake safely thanks.
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Re: Why Cyclists are hated

Postby human909 » Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:58 pm

In my experience it is a rare occurrence that a bicycle is a significant impedance to traffic flow. It normally would only occur when flow density is high enough that the bicycle impedes flow between intersections, but low enough that intersection flow is not a dominant restriction. If cyclists routinely impeded traffic flow you would frequently see cyclist bottlenecks with banks of cars behind them and space ahead. I rarely if ever see this. I do see this in caravans and heavy trucks. If cyclists routinely impeded traffic flow you wouldn't be getting motorists complaining about having to pass them repeatedly. Clearly the motorists average speed isn't higher than the cyclists!

il padrone wrote:I will do this where there are less than about 3-6 cars in-line at the lights.

Same here. Generally there are 12+ cars in line at the lights then that is traffic congestion. If I go to the front then I'll be long gone by the time the back cars get through.

ausrandoman wrote:Post away! I sympathise with your intentions. Lots of cyclists seem to think it is OK to lane split, get to the front of a queue

It is OK. In fact "bike boxes" painted on the roadways encourage this!
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Re: Why Cyclists are hated

Postby Pravda » Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:48 pm

I love yhe the red light running gag. I wish I gad a helmet cam to show all the drivers running red lights on my commute. Almost got taken out by one yesterday when I took off across an intersection. Me and the car in the right lane were both almost smashed by a mad wonan coming through at least 3-4 seconds after our light went green.

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Re: Why Cyclists are hated

Postby ft_critical » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:41 pm

It is not rage against cyclists, it is just rage.

1. Society has too many rules.
2. People don’t know all the rules. How could they.
3. They perceive ’the rules’ to be the commonly observed behaviour.
4. People are inexperienced; they experience the same thing many times. They are unfamiliar with new.
5. Rules, litigation and society have told us we have rights. Creating a perceived sense of self-entitlement.

Thus when anyone appears not to be following the common behaviour (rules) especially where this impinges on our entitlement (even insignificantly) we feel empowered to rage against them.

Motorist rage against motorists. Let’s look.

1. Try driving 15kmh below the speed limit.
2. Try waiting for the green arrow and not turning on just the green light when those behind you perceive the gap is long enough for you to turn.
3. Try driving 10kmh below the speed limit in the ‘fast’ lane.
4. Try slowing down and looking for a parking spot on a single lane road.

And so on. Stop thinking it is rage against cyclists.
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Re: Why Cyclists are hated

Postby Ross » Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:20 pm

ausrandoman wrote:Here we ago again.

Someone, somewhere has the temerity to mention that some cyclists seem to be [insert unpleasant adjective] because some of them [insert activity].

Next, someone on BNA has the temerity to suggest that perhaps if fewer cyclists engaged in [insert activity], fewer people would see them as [insert unpleasant adjective], which might lead to a fractional improvement in civility.

BNA thread is flooded with "But cyclists are wonderful, so they are ENTITLED to [insert activity]".

Rinse and repeat daily.

The only thing unusual about this thread is that it took nearly an hour for the first "We're right, motorists are wrong".


+infinity
Agree with your other posts in this thread too.
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Re: Why Cyclists are hated

Postby skull » Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:50 pm

all I got to say is stereotypes exist for a reason.
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Re: Why Cyclists are hated

Postby Percrime » Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:56 pm

15 km below the limit? All the way down Springvale rd yesterday the not very heavy trafic was spread across 3 lanes. At 65 kph in the 80 zone.

Pretty normal in vic these days.. cos you know speed kills and all.
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Re: Why Cyclists are hated

Postby Mulger bill » Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:29 pm

We are hated because we are different, because we roll to the beat of a different drum.

But mostly they hate us because they are jealous that they bought the line that owning a car means freedom.
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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Re: Why Cyclists are hated

Postby g-boaf » Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:19 pm

And with that - I call Godwin's law. :|

This isn't going to go anywhere - all sides insist the other is wrong.
Last edited by g-boaf on Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why Cyclists are hated

Postby il padrone » Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:23 pm

Wha?????
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Re: Why Cyclists are hated

Postby Mulger bill » Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:24 pm

il padrone wrote:Wha?????

Agreed. :?
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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Re: Why Cyclists are hated

Postby boss » Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:33 pm

I just think its weird that dudes in this thread are riding on high horses and tut tutting others that aren't breaking the law, in fact they're doing the safe thing. Bikes don't have crumple zones, you don't want to be inadvertently involved in a pile up because a car is too close behind you...

What do I expect though? It's BNA. Home of cyclists who enjoy the smell of their own farts.

Meh.
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Re: Why Cyclists are hated

Postby il padrone » Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:34 pm

O-M-I-G-A-W-S-H !!


Amazingly the Feral Hun has not received any comments on this one :?

Podcast of this little love-fest is here :roll:
Last edited by il padrone on Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Why Cyclists are hated

Postby DavidS » Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:51 pm

ausrandoman wrote:
Sparx wrote:well maybe I shouldn't have posted then - sorry I'm new!

Anyway I just thought it was interesting since it gave a different perspective than I have seen to the motorists view of riders.

I have been thinking a lot lately about how to improve motorists perceptions of riders. All riders expect to be treated with respect but many do not show others the same respect.

I don't think the article is 'piffle'. I think it just boils down to - behave in a way that motorists can see that you are following the same rules that they are.


Post away! I sympathise with your intentions. Lots of cyclists seem to think it is OK to lane split, get to the front of a queue, congratulate themselves on how fast they are (until the traffic gets up to and exceeds bicycle speed), then get all hurt and offended when the motorists they are now delaying become resentful.

I used to do it. One day I decided to slot in behind the last car, sprint to stay in the flow between lights and get out of the way at the end of the congested section. Haven't had a single instance of aggression on that road since. Do unto others ...


I generally lane split to the front of the traffic, why? Well someone explained it above. There is a scarcity of road space for large vehicles such as cars, but there is rarely a scarcity of road space for narrow vehicles such as bicycles. I follow certain rules in my riding. There is a section of road where they have put in one of those wide tram stops, in my opinion there is not enough room for a car and a bicycle so there should be no overtaking in that section. I ride in the middle of the lane to stop cars overtaking me and I never lane split there (lots of other cyclists just mount the footpath to get past, I can't see the point). Also I ride along Beach Rd going South in Melbourne during the evening peak in summer. After Head St it is a 4 lane road (no bike lane) and I ride as far as Bay St and then head for the Beach (a little extra riding in summer, don't do this in winter when it is dark and I partly do this because it gives protection from the prevailing afternoon South Westerly wind, anyway I need to go up Head St so this is an extra few KMs). On this stretch of road I don't lane split if the lights are red because it is narrow and cars do need to get out of my lane to overtake me and there generally isn't enough traffic to gridlock the cars, so if I pass them at the lights, they then have to pass me again later.

My main argument for lane splitting is that not getting caught behind traffic is one of the main reasons I ride a bike. If I'm just going to sit behind all the cars I might as well be in a car, or, even better, reading on a comfortable air conditioned train. A bit of judgement and taking account of the interests of others and you can lane split where appropriate (most of the time it is appropriate as the cars either won't catch you because of traffic or there is plenty of room to overtake a narrow bicycle without hassle).

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Re: Why Cyclists are hated

Postby citywomble » Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:23 am

Sparx said:
well maybe I shouldn't have posted then - sorry I'm new!

Anyway I just thought it was interesting since it gave a different perspective than I have seen to the motorists view of riders.

I have been thinking a lot lately about how to improve motorists perceptions of riders. All riders expect to be treated with respect but many do not show others the same respect.

I don't think the article is 'piffle'. I think it just boils down to - behave in a way that motorists can see that you are following the same rules that they are.


Well I for one am very pleased you posted this and it appears to be both thought provoking and true.

What the majority here seem to miss, quoting road rules, is that is not what is driving this. The rules in question are those which the road users collectively have developed, often a variation of the official rules. Thus in UK they queue, in Asia they don't. Unfortunately, in Australia the majority of users, that create their version of the rules (by which they interact) are motorists, cyclists are the minority who should conform or be 'punished'.

Is it right? No. Is it reality? Probably yes.

Il Padrone said:
Funny how this is such a 'problem' in certain societies and not in others. Mainly seems to be in Anglo-societies (Australia, UK, NZ, USA) but so much less of an issue in most European societies and many Asian societies.


The answer to this is probably Anglo society has been more constrained by imposed rules and heavier policing which has created a stronger (albeit modified) set of societal rules. In more lax European countries and Asia those rules are looser and cyclists are consequently more conforming. This acceptance of cyclists comes at a price. The countries where it is less of an issue also have much higher accident and fatality rates. Taken to its extreme, if rules diminished to the point of anarchy then cyclists might be equal - even if equally dead.

This is an extremely thought provoking article.
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Re: Why Cyclists are hated

Postby il padrone » Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:50 am

citywomble wrote:Unfortunately, in Australia the majority of users, that create their version of the rules (by which they interact) are motorists, cyclists are the minority who should conform or be 'punished'.

Is it right? No. Is it reality? Probably yes.

Should we accept it? NUP!

citywomble wrote:This acceptance of cyclists comes at a price. The countries where it is less of an issue also have much higher accident and fatality rates. Taken to its extreme, if rules diminished to the point of anarchy then cyclists might be equal - even if equally dead.

I think you'll find this connection is pretty spurious. European countries in particular have cyclist fatality rates much lower than Australia, NZ and USA. UK is comparable with Europe generally, but has some particular problems. I am not aware of any data from Asian countries, so will not attempt to draw any conclusions.
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Re: Why Cyclists are hated

Postby outnabike » Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:08 am

Mulger bill wrote:We are hated because we are different, because we roll to the beat of a different drum.

But mostly they hate us because they are jealous that they bought the line that owning a car means freedom.


I reckon cyclist are hated for just being in the way. (perceived) But I would say that many here also own a car. The only difference is the cycle owning motorist knows what a cyclist is feeling in the traffic. Were sort of benevolent well behaved Rottweilers’ protecting our brood. :lol:
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Re: Why Cyclists are hated

Postby Undertow » Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:50 am

g-boaf wrote:And with that - I call Godwin's law. :|

This isn't going to go anywhere - all sides insist the other is wrong.


How are you calling Godwins law? the necessary prerequisites haven't been met yet. You do actually know what Godwins law is right?
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Re: Why Cyclists are hated

Postby Nobody » Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:38 am

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Re: Why Cyclists are hated

Postby __PG__ » Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:15 pm

Mulger bill wrote:We are hated because we are different, because we roll to the beat of a different drum.

But mostly they hate us because they are jealous that they bought the line that owning a car means freedom.

I agree with this. Cars are sold on the basis of freedom, speed, the wide open road etc. No-one ever advertises how fantastic your car is when sitting in gridlock.

When people's reality of car ownership interferes with its perception, they start to get frustrated.
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Re: Why Cyclists are hated

Postby il padrone » Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:22 pm

__PG__ wrote:No-one ever advertises how fantastic your car is when sitting in gridlock.

Oh, I don't know about that ??

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Re: Why Cyclists are hated

Postby sb944 » Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:37 pm

In reality, cyclists don't affect peoples emotions much at all, and if they do, you must be driving an awful lot on a bike friendly road that you could probably avoid if it upset you that much.
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Re: Why Cyclists are hated

Postby Xplora » Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:09 pm

__PG__ wrote:
Mulger bill wrote:We are hated because we are different, because we roll to the beat of a different drum.

But mostly they hate us because they are jealous that they bought the line that owning a car means freedom.

I agree with this. Cars are sold on the basis of freedom, speed, the wide open road etc. No-one ever advertises how fantastic your car is when sitting in gridlock.

When people's reality of car ownership interferes with its perception, they start to get frustrated.

Can you IMAGINE a car ad showing some boofhead going ballistic at the gridlock, day after day after day? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Why Cyclists are hated

Postby boss » Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:14 pm

Most people wait patiently when traffic banks up. That's life.
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