Cyclist dies after Cowan crash (Sunday 17th Feb 2013)

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wombata
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Re: Cyclist dies after Cowan crash (Sunday 17th Feb 2013)

Postby wombata » Tue Jul 04, 2017 6:55 pm

If you can just bear with me here....

Re the manslaughter charge, my understanding is that Ben Smith's easily established pre-existing state of mind towards cyclists was the single most important aspect in going from DDOD to manslaughter....when he came within range of the cyclist, this state of mind led him to not use sufficient care as to what happened to the cyclist, noting the judge said he couldn't establish that his state of mind led him to hit (aim at) the cyclist. Fair enough.

What concerns me here is that I believe many motorists don't care what happens to cyclists when they pass them, without pre-existing hatred like Ben Smith had. They just don't give a hoot. But the end result is the same. To me, both situations should be manslaughter ie if a motorist has the opportunity to not hit the cyclist but did anyway through not caring (as distinct from hating them), this should in my view be considered manslaughter.

Can something be done so that state of mind of either a positive hatred or a don't give a hoot attitude towards a cyclist that kills them is regarded as manslaughter? It seems too narrow to me at present. Am I misguided in thinking this? Can a lawyer help clarify please?

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Re: Cyclist dies after Cowan crash (Sunday 17th Feb 2013)

Postby trailgumby » Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:33 pm

Thoglette wrote:
trailgumby wrote: Begs the question, what do you have to do to get the maximum?


Just be glad that manslaughter was the charge as opposed to "dangerous driving causing death". That's a major step forward.

Yes, you're quite right. And satisfaction can be taken from the fact it will follow him to his grave.

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Re: Cyclist dies after Cowan crash (Sunday 17th Feb 2013)

Postby fishwop » Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:38 pm

ColinOldnCranky wrote:In some jurisdictions an unintended death arising out of an act that is obviously hazardous to life is sufficient to sustain a charge of murder instead of manslaughter. (I don't know if that is the case in the jurisdiction here.)

It would be good if actions such as Smith's were readily judged by the courts to fall under that scope. Because clearly buzzing riders sufficiently aggressively does pose a serious and obvious risk of death.

You have to intend, before the event, to cause either death or grievous bodily harm for a charge of murder to be made out. Given the facts of this case, the cops did well to get manslaughter.

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Re: Cyclist dies after Cowan crash (Sunday 17th Feb 2013)

Postby cp123 » Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:12 am

one other thing, for those who haven't seen the newest hate page on farcebook (aussies over cyclists), there are 12000+ haters on there. They're also on a sticker campaign to get rid of 'road toads' because cough, we're not safe on the road.

no, they're not a hate page, they look out for our best interests.... :roll: well, that might be the admin's aim, but the comments are just haters.

anyway, I'd like to wonder if any of those 12,000 haters or people who might now have a no road toads sticker on their car, or anyone who has posted comments on a page such as that could also be swapped up from DDOD to manslaughter in the future. for the same reason as ben smith - premeditated hate.... if police could trawl that page, they'd get a lot of ammunition for ANYONE there who might be involved in a collision with a cyclist.

we could only hope so. albeit of course that none of us would ever get hit, but hopefully you might know what I am trying to say....

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Re: Cyclist dies after Cowan crash (Sunday 17th Feb 2013)

Postby Trevtassie » Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:21 am

cp123 wrote:one other thing, for those who haven't seen the newest hate page on farcebook (aussies over cyclists), there are 12000+ haters on there. They're also on a sticker campaign to get rid of 'road toads' because cough, we're not safe on the road.

no, they're not a hate page, they look out for our best interests.... :roll: well, that might be the admin's aim, but the comments are just haters.

anyway, I'd like to wonder if any of those 12,000 haters or people who might now have a no road toads sticker on their car, or anyone who has posted comments on a page such as that could also be swapped up from DDOD to manslaughter in the future. for the same reason as ben smith - premeditated hate.... if police could trawl that page, they'd get a lot of ammunition for ANYONE there who might be involved in a collision with a cyclist.

we could only hope so. albeit of course that none of us would ever get hit, but hopefully you might know what I am trying to say....


Funny you should say that, I've been considering starting a page where people can post screen shots of cyclist hater comments from sources like news comments, Facebook, Forums etc, with as many identifying details as possible, so victims, police and lawyers have a central place to go to search to establish patterns of behaviour. I mean hell, some of these numpties use their real names when they threaten to murder people.

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Re: Cyclist dies after Cowan crash (Sunday 17th Feb 2013)

Postby Thoglette » Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:14 pm

Trevtassie wrote:Funny you should say that, I've been considering starting a page where people can post screen shots of cyclist hater comments from sources like news comments, Facebook, Forums etc, with as many identifying details as possible, so victims, police and lawyers have a central place to go to search to establish patterns of behaviour. I mean hell, some of these numpties use their real names when they threaten to murder people.


It would certainly help during sentencing and assist the choice of appropriate charge when someone has a run in with one of these idiots.

Recent press (can't find it but search for phillipines journalist) indicates is also likely that many of those 15,000 are either not human, school age kids or the same person. In either case, exposure is needed.
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Re: Cyclist dies after Cowan crash (Sunday 17th Feb 2013)

Postby cp123 » Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:25 pm

Trevtassie wrote:
cp123 wrote:one other thing, for those who haven't seen the newest hate page on farcebook (aussies over cyclists), there are 12000+ haters on there. They're also on a sticker campaign to get rid of 'road toads' because cough, we're not safe on the road.

no, they're not a hate page, they look out for our best interests.... :roll: well, that might be the admin's aim, but the comments are just haters.

anyway, I'd like to wonder if any of those 12,000 haters or people who might now have a no road toads sticker on their car, or anyone who has posted comments on a page such as that could also be swapped up from DDOD to manslaughter in the future. for the same reason as ben smith - premeditated hate.... if police could trawl that page, they'd get a lot of ammunition for ANYONE there who might be involved in a collision with a cyclist.

we could only hope so. albeit of course that none of us would ever get hit, but hopefully you might know what I am trying to say....


Funny you should say that, I've been considering starting a page where people can post screen shots of cyclist hater comments from sources like news comments, Facebook, Forums etc, with as many identifying details as possible, so victims, police and lawyers have a central place to go to search to establish patterns of behaviour. I mean hell, some of these numpties use their real names when they threaten to murder people.



super idea! but you'd have your work cut out for you. the AOC page and its namesake Brisbane and Cyclists have a LOT of people making a LOT of comments. you could hire a team of 10 and they'd be occupied for months logging all the 'runthefriggingbuntsofftheroad' comments.

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Re: Cyclist dies after Cowan crash (Sunday 17th Feb 2013)

Postby trailgumby » Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:37 pm

I just bought one of those road toad stickers off eBay. They turned up today.

Unfortunately no return address but I do have a name from the bank account and a suburb. :twisted:

He is not the page owner but admits to being an admin.

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Re: Cyclist dies after Cowan crash (Sunday 17th Feb 2013)

Postby cp123 » Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:46 pm

TG - you're not just a pretty face are you son..... :twisted:



please... do tell.... what you are planning... :twisted:

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Re: Cyclist dies after Cowan crash (Sunday 17th Feb 2013)

Postby Mulger bill » Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:51 pm

Trevtassie wrote:Funny you should say that, I've been considering starting a page where people can post screen shots of cyclist hater comments from sources like news comments...

Based on what I've encountered, your page will be flagged as hate speech by a hundred or more of the Rerd Turds who will then tag in all their special friends for one enormous anti rider circle jerk. They seem to have taken lessons from various alt right echo chambers on how to derail that sort of page as they block and delete any factual posts on their own
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Re: Cyclist dies after Cowan crash (Sunday 17th Feb 2013)

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:04 am

fishwop wrote:You have to intend, before the event, to cause either death or grievous bodily harm for a charge of murder to be made out. Given the facts of this case, the cops did well to get manslaughter.

Not at all true in NSW where this tragedy occurred. Intent is not required.

From the American Heritage Dictionary
mur·der (mûrdər)
n.
1.
a. The killing of another person without justification or excuse, especially the crime of killing a person with malice aforethought or with recklessness manifesting extreme indifference to the value of human life.
I hasten to add that "extreme indifference to ..." could be manslaughter in some jurisdictions. But certainly not everywhere.

And indeed NSW falls into line with the above definition where any one of the following states of mind can sustain a finding of murder:
  • an intent to kill
  • an intent to inflict grievous bodily harm
    or
  • reckless indifference to human life

Ben Smith should consider himself lucky, he just may have dodged a bullet on two of those states of mind.

An example: Oscar Pistorious was initially found guilty of culpable homicide (manslaughter) but it was ruled on appeal to be murder. The basis of the appeal for murder was NOT his intent, which they could not prove. Rather that he should and would have foreseen the likelihood of killing whoever was on the other side of the door. ie indifference to the value of that persons life.
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Re: Cyclist dies after Cowan crash (Sunday 17th Feb 2013)

Postby battler2 » Sat Jul 15, 2017 3:56 am

Mulger bill wrote:
Trevtassie wrote:Funny you should say that, I've been considering starting a page where people can post screen shots of cyclist hater comments from sources like news comments...

Based on what I've encountered, your page will be flagged as hate speech by a hundred or more of the Rerd Turds who will then tag in all their special friends for one enormous anti rider circle jerk. They seem to have taken lessons from various alt right echo chambers on how to derail that sort of page as they block and delete any factual posts on their own


not if you host it on your own and use crowdsourcing to get it updated and maintained. fake fb profiles etc. make it useless sometimes. and lack of identifying information in a public fb profile makes it hard as well. yes some are stupid, but most that write hate actually don't have the guts to kill. it's the very select few, you're talking a handful of people each year(s). the police aren't going to search the database every time for a report of abuse/minor accident. the best is it might help a few people get damages easier through the courts.

the ben smith case, plenty of people that overheard him were quite happy to rat him out anyway, afaik.

so to add, i thought of this a while ago as well. i would consider working on it but there's virtually no gain for me to do so other than the experience of it all. it's charity work basically, and could be shutdown due to privacy laws etc. not to mention web hosting expenses, personal threats etc. even by trying to keep it low key/discreet, the word will get out anyway.

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Re: Cyclist dies after Cowan crash (Sunday 17th Feb 2013)

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:20 am

battler2 wrote:
Mulger bill wrote:
Trevtassie wrote:Funny you should say that, I've been considering starting a page where people can post screen shots of cyclist hater comments from sources like news comments...

Based on what I've encountered, your page will be flagged as hate speech by a hundred or more of the Rerd Turds who will then tag in all their special friends for one enormous anti rider circle jerk. They seem to have taken lessons from various alt right echo chambers on how to derail that sort of page as they block and delete any factual posts on their own


not if you host it on your own and use crowdsourcing to get it updated and maintained. fake fb profiles etc. make it useless sometimes. and lack of identifying information in a public fb profile makes it hard as well. yes some are stupid, but most that write hate actually don't have the guts to kill. it's the very select few, you're talking a handful of people each year(s). the police aren't going to search the database every time for a report of abuse/minor accident. the best is it might help a few people get damages easier through the courts.

the ben smith case, plenty of people that overheard him were quite happy to rat him out anyway, afaik.

so to add, i thought of this a while ago as well. i would consider working on it but there's virtually no gain for me to do so other than the experience of it all. it's charity work basically, and could be shutdown due to privacy laws etc. not to mention web hosting expenses, personal threats etc. even by trying to keep it low key/discreet, the word will get out anyway.


I'm curious what you hope to achieve. I certainly can't see it making the eroads safer or improving the mindset of anyone in the direction that we woudl want.

Indeed it wold just be another place to where haters could point more moderate people to in the hope of recruiting them to their own flawed world view. Not only would I not see a need for it, I would hope that it never got off the ground.

Your suggestion looks only to be an effort of self gratification. Watching porn would be a lot easier. :lol:
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Re: Cyclist dies after Cowan crash (Sunday 17th Feb 2013)

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:22 am

ColinOldnCranky wrote:
battler2 wrote:
Mulger bill wrote:Based on what I've encountered, your page will be flagged as hate speech by a hundred or more of the Rerd Turds who will then tag in all their special friends for one enormous anti rider circle jerk. They seem to have taken lessons from various alt right echo chambers on how to derail that sort of page as they block and delete any factual posts on their own


not if you host it on your own and use crowdsourcing to get it updated and maintained. fake fb profiles etc. make it useless sometimes. and lack of identifying information in a public fb profile makes it hard as well. yes some are stupid, but most that write hate actually don't have the guts to kill. it's the very select few, you're talking a handful of people each year(s). the police aren't going to search the database every time for a report of abuse/minor accident. the best is it might help a few people get damages easier through the courts.

the ben smith case, plenty of people that overheard him were quite happy to rat him out anyway, afaik.

so to add, i thought of this a while ago as well. i would consider working on it but there's virtually no gain for me to do so other than the experience of it all. it's charity work basically, and could be shutdown due to privacy laws etc. not to mention web hosting expenses, personal threats etc. even by trying to keep it low key/discreet, the word will get out anyway.


I'm curious what you hope to achieve. I certainly can't see it making the eroads safer or improving the mindset of anyone in the direction that we woudl want.

Indeed it wold just be another place to where haters could point more moderate people to in the hope of recruiting them to their own flawed world view. Not only would I not see a need for it, I would hope that it never got off the ground.

Charity? Huh? Your suggestion looks only to be an effort of self gratification. Watching porn would be a lot easier. :lol:
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Re: Cyclist dies after Cowan crash (Sunday 17th Feb 2013)

Postby familyguy » Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:24 pm

trailgumby wrote:Unfortunately no return address but I do have a name from the bank account and a suburb. :twisted:

He is not the page owner but admits to being an admin.


The eBay name was pretty much matched up with an infrequent poster on the page. I think the originator may be his brother or a close relative 8) Feel free to dig.

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Re: Cyclist dies after Cowan crash (Sunday 17th Feb 2013)

Postby battler2 » Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:43 pm

ColinOldnCranky wrote:
battler2 wrote:
Mulger bill wrote:Based on what I've encountered, your page will be flagged as hate speech by a hundred or more of the Rerd Turds who will then tag in all their special friends for one enormous anti rider circle jerk. They seem to have taken lessons from various alt right echo chambers on how to derail that sort of page as they block and delete any factual posts on their own


not if you host it on your own and use crowdsourcing to get it updated and maintained. fake fb profiles etc. make it useless sometimes. and lack of identifying information in a public fb profile makes it hard as well. yes some are stupid, but most that write hate actually don't have the guts to kill. it's the very select few, you're talking a handful of people each year(s). the police aren't going to search the database every time for a report of abuse/minor accident. the best is it might help a few people get damages easier through the courts.

the ben smith case, plenty of people that overheard him were quite happy to rat him out anyway, afaik.

so to add, i thought of this a while ago as well. i would consider working on it but there's virtually no gain for me to do so other than the experience of it all. it's charity work basically, and could be shutdown due to privacy laws etc. not to mention web hosting expenses, personal threats etc. even by trying to keep it low key/discreet, the word will get out anyway.


I'm curious what you hope to achieve. I certainly can't see it making the eroads safer or improving the mindset of anyone in the direction that we woudl want.

Indeed it wold just be another place to where haters could point more moderate people to in the hope of recruiting them to their own flawed world view. Not only would I not see a need for it, I would hope that it never got off the ground.

Your suggestion looks only to be an effort of self gratification. Watching porn would be a lot easier. :lol:


i didnt say i was going to do it, and if you can't see what a national database of people (with evidence) of hatred towards cyclists would achieve i dont think you understand the severity of the ben smith case (for example). pages like 'aussies over cyclists' spread and promote hatred and by documenting this hatred you effectively gather evidence that may be able to be used against them if they crossed the line (by deliberately hitting and/or killing a cyclist).

it's the same as the government metadata laws and and de-cryption efforts. one hand it's an invasion of privacy, the other, well if terrorists strike, or are plotting to strike, you can at least prevent it or prevent further damage.

self-gratification? please. if i could help in any way someone that was deliberately injured/killed and help in proving that the perpetrator was not of a sane mindset i would do it in a second. i think it is on the same level as stopping if you see a cyclist get mowed down by a car and providing rego details and witness account, its just done in cyberspace instead.

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Meanwhile we have idiots like this

Postby Thoglette » Sat Jul 22, 2017 1:27 pm

Some one want to talk to this drongo? Apparently BrianK5 owns a bike but "but only ride it on my 10 acre property that way I don't annoy the drivers."
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Re: Cyclist dies after Cowan crash (Sunday 17th Feb 2013)

Postby trailgumby » Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:30 pm

Some serious bike hate going there. :evil:

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Re: Meanwhile we have idiots like this

Postby Cheesewheel » Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:04 am

Thoglette wrote:Some one want to talk to this drongo? Apparently BrianK5 owns a bike but "but only ride it on my 10 acre property that way I don't annoy the drivers."

Judging from the recent comment from (an apparent) "Ben Smith" with a cellmate called Gazza, the full consequence of life imitating art is lost on this moron.
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Re: Cyclist dies after Cowan crash (Sunday 17th Feb 2013)

Postby Spaniel » Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:18 am

There is a very emotional write up on this tragedy in the latest NRMA Open Road magazine (Nov/Dec 2017). Was going to ride Old Pac Hwy to Mt White today, but couldn’t ride after reading the article.

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Re: Cyclist dies after Cowan crash (Sunday 17th Feb 2013)

Postby Leethal » Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:54 am

Spaniel wrote:There is a very emotional write up on this tragedy in the latest NRMA Open Road magazine (Nov/Dec 2017). Was going to ride Old Pac Hwy to Mt White today, but couldn’t ride after reading the article.


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Re: Cyclist dies after Cowan crash (Sunday 17th Feb 2013)

Postby trailgumby » Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:46 pm

Leethal wrote:
Spaniel wrote:There is a very emotional write up on this tragedy in the latest NRMA Open Road magazine (Nov/Dec 2017). Was going to ride Old Pac Hwy to Mt White today, but couldn’t ride after reading the article.


http://openroadnorthwestsydney.realview ... /#folio=56

Thanks for posting the link.

That was really hard to read. :cry:

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