Where to Ride-Gutter Rat or Road Hog?????????

open topic, for anything cycling related.

Where to Ride-Gutter Rat or Road Hog?????????

Postby russell.bathard » Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:52 pm

Has anyone statistics on cycling accidents and deaths relating to where the cyclist was positioned on the road when the accident occurred.Was the cyclist close to the gutter or riding further out in the lane, say in line with the passenger wheels of a car.Do these statistics differ for city suburban riding as opposed to highway or country riding.
I am a committed gutter rat. I am not brave enough to be a road hog.
Does a road hog hold his position on a road with oncoming traffic and a 40 ton truck behind him?
Does a road hog have the right to effectively block a lane of busy traffic?
What effect does this have on cyclist/motorist relationships?
If head on vehicle accidents can happen,and with texting, drugs and alcohol around, is a road hog actually safe in his position?
Is it possible that road hog accidents are fewer but more serious?
How does the position of the cyclist on the road effect the passing clearance given by vehicles?Have any studies been done on this?
russell.bathard
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:36 pm

by BNA » Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:44 pm

BNA
 

Re: Where to Ride-Gutter Rat or Road Hog?????????

Postby RonK » Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:44 pm

Ah, so now you disparage those who would disagree with your riding style as road hogs.

You certainly have winning ways.
Cycle touring blog and tour journals: whispering wheels...
User avatar
RonK
 
Posts: 4918
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:08 pm
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Re: Where to Ride-Gutter Rat or Road Hog?????????

Postby AKO » Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:08 pm

RonK wrote:Ah, so now you disparage those who would disagree with your riding style as road hogs.

You certainly have winning ways.

He does refer to himself as a gutter rat though. Hardly a flattering self assessment.
Malvern Star Oppy C5
Malvern Star XCS 5.0 MTB
User avatar
AKO
 
Posts: 198
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:16 pm

Re: Where to Ride-Gutter Rat or Road Hog?????????

Postby mattwilkinson » Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:10 pm

russell.bathard wrote:Has anyone statistics on cycling accidents and deaths relating to where the cyclist was positioned on the road when the accident occurred.Was the cyclist close to the gutter or riding further out in the lane, say in line with the passenger wheels of a car.Do these statistics differ for city suburban riding as opposed to highway or country riding.
I am a committed gutter rat. I am not brave enough to be a road hog.
Does a road hog hold his position on a road with oncoming traffic and a 40 ton truck behind him?
Does a road hog have the right to effectively block a lane of busy traffic?
What effect does this have on cyclist/motorist relationships?
If head on vehicle accidents can happen,and with texting, drugs and alcohol around, is a road hog actually safe in his position?
Is it possible that road hog accidents are fewer but more serious?
How does the position of the cyclist on the road effect the passing clearance given by vehicles?Have any studies been done on this?


Road hogs?

There are instances when I hold a lane, For instance when I roll down a hill on the way to school, I hold my lane down to the roundabout and through.

And really, you don't need to be paranoid about it. Cars are more likely to see you in the lane because lets face it, How many drivers actually look in the bike lane as well before turning?
Image
User avatar
mattwilkinson
 
Posts: 293
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:32 pm
Location: Bendigo, Victoria

Where to Ride-Gutter Rat or Road Hog?????????

Postby Dan » Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:20 pm

[insert argument here] :roll:

That first post would be like totes more interesting with like you know a hypothesis.

You have ten questions there in your initial post - why don't you google some and report back? 2000 words, Arial 11pt, 1 1/2 line spacing thanks. Due 2 March.
User avatar
Dan
 
Posts: 3289
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 12:32 pm
Location: Vegas, baby

Re: Where to Ride-Gutter Rat or Road Hog?????????

Postby il padrone » Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:32 pm

russell.bathard wrote:Has anyone statistics on cycling accidents and deaths relating to where the cyclist was positioned on the road when the accident occurred.Was the cyclist close to the gutter or riding further out in the lane, say in line with the passenger wheels of a car.Do these statistics differ for city suburban riding as opposed to highway or country riding.

No data

russell.bathard wrote:Does a road hog hold his position on a road with oncoming traffic and a 40 ton truck behind him?

Yes

russell.bathard wrote:Does a road hog have the right to effectively block a lane of busy traffic?

Yes

russell.bathard wrote:What effect does this have on cyclist/motorist relationships?

Much improved. Shows strength of purpose.

russell.bathard wrote:If head on vehicle accidents can happen,and with texting, drugs and alcohol around, is a road hog actually safe in his position?

No different.

russell.bathard wrote:Is it possible that road hog accidents are fewer but more serious?

No data.

russell.bathard wrote:How does the position of the cyclist on the road effect the passing clearance given by vehicles?

You go wide, they go wide.

russell.bathard wrote:Have any studies been done on this?

No, at least not in Australia.
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 17463
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Where to Ride-Gutter Rat or Road Hog?????????

Postby Mulger bill » Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:44 pm

I used to cringe along in the gutter and I used to have bulk vehicles of all descriptions attempt to amputate my right arm.

Now I don't and the frequency of attempts is down by almost but not quite shedloads.

I want to be seen, ergo I ride in the place where most drivers are looking.
If I could ride in the screen of the rest of thems phones I would do that too. :roll:

Act like a second class road user and that's how you'll be treated. I am a legitimate road user and I will be treated as such. Little can be done about the attitude of the Shaaaaaynes and Mervs in the world (it is hoped that blowing them kisses will cause aneurysms but this is yet to be proven).
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
London Boy 29/12/2011
User avatar
Mulger bill
Super Mod
Super Mod
 
Posts: 25268
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 2:41 pm
Location: Sunbury Vic

Re: Where to Ride-Gutter Rat or Road Hog?????????

Postby Mulger bill » Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:46 pm

Oh yeah...

In reference to the third line of the above post, Do. The. Test.
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
London Boy 29/12/2011
User avatar
Mulger bill
Super Mod
Super Mod
 
Posts: 25268
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 2:41 pm
Location: Sunbury Vic

Re: Where to Ride-Gutter Rat or Road Hog?????????

Postby bychosis » Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:46 am

I'm a road hog, but I use my brains a little and where there is room to be off the road that's what I choose, the only time I 'm a gutter rat is to squeeze down beside stationary traffic that I wont hold up when we all take off.
bychosis (bahy-koh-sis): A mental disorder of delusions indicating impaired contact with a reality of no bicycles.
User avatar
bychosis
 
Posts: 1728
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:10 pm
Location: Lake Macquarie

Re: Where to Ride-Gutter Rat or Road Hog?????????

Postby geoffs » Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:03 am

+ 1 to Il padrone's succinct reply.

I've been commuting in Sydney for over 30 years and I take the lane most times.
A rider who rides in the gutter faces a far greater risk of getting hit by either a passing car or getting doored.
In my view a gutter bunny is an accident waiting to happen and I've seen a few of them happen.
Ride like your a car but obey the road rules
User avatar
geoffs
 
Posts: 311
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:16 pm
Location: Ashbury

Re: Where to Ride-Gutter Rat or Road Hog?????????

Postby kb » Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:19 am

Not just vehicles behind. In my experience, right turners and left turners from side streets look down the centre of the road lane for traffic.
Image
User avatar
kb
 
Posts: 705
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2011 2:22 pm

Re: Where to Ride-Gutter Rat or Road Hog?????????

Postby il padrone » Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:40 am

Another point. When coming up to a vehicle waiting to enter from a left-hand side street, moving wider out on the road makes it appear to them that you are moving faster - a little optical illusion. Also you are better placed to avoid them if they do move out. All subject to following traffic of course, but this is most relevant when you have an empty road behind you.
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 17463
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Where to Ride-Gutter Rat or Road Hog?????????

Postby AndrewBurns » Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:00 am

I commute in Sydney traffic. Lots of people tell me I'm crazy for riding a bike on the road here but I could count the number of times I've had somebody drive around me in an unsafe manner in the last year on one hand and I attribute this to a confident and assertive presence on the road.

When riding to the left, ride where the left wheel of a car would be, not in the gutter. If you ride in the gutter the road surface is not as good, your visibility is much worse because drivers don't expect to look for vehicles that far left, you are too close to the doors of parked cars and you have to swerve out to go around parked cars which puts you in danger of being hit by cars from behind that didn't see you because you were somewhere they're not used to looking.

When coming up to a road obstacle such as a roundabout, traffic calming device, blind corner, narrow bridge etc. Look back at the car behind you so that you can make sure that they see you and indicate that you intend to drift right by sticking your arm out. If you were riding in the gutter than they either wouldn't see you indicate or they'd fancy their chances of moving up to cut you off which is why it's so important to ride in the left wheel track on the road. When you move out either move to the centre of the road or into the right wheel track, make it clear that you're intentionally blocking cars from passing you because of the hazard coming up. Before I did this people would occasionally try to pass me on the inside as we went around roundabouts, one wonderful person in an SUV tried, realised they didn't have enough space and then drove over the middle of the roundabout and cut in front of me at the exit. Now when I obviously and assertively take the lane and block cars behind from passing just before obstacles I actually find people are more willing to wait patiently until I move back left again and I've never once had any agro or dangerous driving because of it.

Having confidence riding on the road just takes experience. It's the same when you learn to drive, lots of beginner drivers are rather timid on the road which encourages other road users to drive recklessly and dangerously around them, once you learn to show a bit of confidence driver attitudes around you tend to calm down a bit.
Image
AndrewBurns
 
Posts: 992
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:36 pm

Re: Where to Ride-Gutter Rat or Road Hog?????????

Postby ILMB » Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:25 am

Very well said AndrewBurns. Posts like yours, and other posters of a like ilk, have allowed my confidence & sense of safety as a cyclist grow immensely since I started just on a year ago in Sydney.
User avatar
ILMB
 
Posts: 161
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:15 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Where to Ride-Gutter Rat or Road Hog?????????

Postby Mulger bill » Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:41 am

ILMB wrote:Very well said AndrewBurns. Posts like yours, and other posters of a like ilk, have allowed my confidence & sense of safety as a cyclist grow immensely since I started just on a year ago in Sydney.

Score!!! Welcome to the vehicular cyclists club :D
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
London Boy 29/12/2011
User avatar
Mulger bill
Super Mod
Super Mod
 
Posts: 25268
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 2:41 pm
Location: Sunbury Vic

Re: Where to Ride-Gutter Rat or Road Hog?????????

Postby rogan » Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:51 am

kb wrote:Not just vehicles behind. In my experience, right turners and left turners from side streets look down the centre of the road lane for traffic.


Yep, this. Much more visibility in all directions. You have fewer problems with motorists coming from behind, or oncoming, or in side streets. Also, motorists looking to turn across you in any of those conformations, as well as motorists looking to move away from a parking spot, or trying to change into your lane.

One point. In higher levels of traffic (that is moving traffic, in gridlock who cares? and you can't ride the centre of the lane anyway), I make it look like I am actually trying (whether or not I am), and not just out for a gentle dawdle.
Image
rogan
 
Posts: 688
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 9:31 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Where to Ride-Gutter Rat or Road Hog?????????

Postby wombatK » Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:59 pm

russell.bathard wrote:Does a road hog hold his position on a road with oncoming traffic and a 40 ton truck behind him?

This question shows an ignorance or lack of experience with cycling on actual roads. Most 40 ton trucks
occupy the full lane width. There is simply no space beside them for any putative gutter rat.
A cyclist won't be safe unless the 40 ton truck is behind him.

If you are silly enough to let them get beside you, be ready to bunny hop onto the footpath,
because they're very likely to wedge you off the road. Also make sure your ambulance and health
insurance are paid up.

As for the other questions, il padrone has answered them very well.
WombatK

Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us -Jerry Garcia
User avatar
wombatK
 
Posts: 5088
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:08 pm
Location: Yagoona, AU

Re: Where to Ride-Gutter Rat or Road Hog?????????

Postby il padrone » Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:33 pm

wombatK wrote:
russell.bathard wrote:Does a road hog hold his position on a road with oncoming traffic and a 40 ton truck behind him?

This question shows an ignorance or lack of experience with cycling on actual roads.

Yes, this is correct. And also two rather major misunderstandings of the road rules aka the law.

1. A cyclist is not a "road hog" - an insulting term to use on a cycling forum BTW. He/she is a road vehicle.

2. A cyclist riding in traffic at say, 20kmh is not blocking traffic. He/she is traffic.

By all means ride in the gutter if you wish but it will not make your experience any safer, nor any more pleasant, in fact it will make the experience a good deal more fraught.

As well as that such riding behaviour only goes to reinforce the misguided view that cyclists do not have a legitimate place on the road; that we do not have right to expect the same behaviour from motorists that they would give towards other drivers. Please, for the safety of all of us, don't do it. Hold your space and claim the lane where it is required. It is not "road-hogging".
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 17463
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Where to Ride-Gutter Rat or Road Hog?????????

Postby bychosis » Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:10 pm

il padrone wrote:By all means ride in the gutter if you wish but it will not make your experience any safer, nor any more pleasant, in fact it will make the experience a good deal more fraught.

As well as that such riding behaviour only goes to reinforce the misguided view that cyclists do not have a legitimate place on the road; that we do not have right to expect the same behaviour from motorists that they would give towards other drivers. Please, for the safety of all of us, don't do it. Hold your space and claim the lane where it is required. It is not "road-hogging".


This.

Everytime a motorist sees a cyclist riding in the gutter it reinforces the opinion that they think they can squeeze through any old time.
bychosis (bahy-koh-sis): A mental disorder of delusions indicating impaired contact with a reality of no bicycles.
User avatar
bychosis
 
Posts: 1728
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:10 pm
Location: Lake Macquarie

Re: Where to Ride-Gutter Rat or Road Hog?????????

Postby richbee » Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:31 am

It's all been said already, but I'm definitely one for holding my line/lane/piece of road/whatever. I usually cycle about a metre and a half out from the road edge which has for me two advantages - car tyres have swept my path clear of puncture causing debris (usually into the gutter), and I'm in drivers line of sight. There's a third advantage in that cars overtaking have to make a change of direction and are thereby more likely to leave more room. Yes there's the odd A-hole but they'd do that whether you were in the gutter or the middle of the lane.

Where there's a bike lane, I'll generally ride on the white line unless I am aware of a faster than me bunch behind in which case I'll give them room to pass before I retake my position. In heavy traffic, well the advantage of a narrow racing bike is I can squeeze though all manner of gaps, and use the superior acceleration of my Pinarello with bling bits to claim the lane at other times.

And remember, you are the traffic.
richbee
 
Posts: 147
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:58 pm

Re: Where to Ride-Gutter Rat or Road Hog?????????

Postby Mulger bill » Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:21 am

richbee wrote:...two advantages - car tyres have swept my path clear of puncture causing debris (usually into the gutter), and I'm in drivers line of sight.

And remember, you are the traffic.


Forgot about the swept line, damn excellent point. +42
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
London Boy 29/12/2011
User avatar
Mulger bill
Super Mod
Super Mod
 
Posts: 25268
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 2:41 pm
Location: Sunbury Vic

Re: Where to Ride-Gutter Rat or Road Hog?????????

Postby clackers » Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:46 pm

Riding about a third of the way out from the edge seems to make cars put their wheels into the next lane, which makes me happy enough, while not seeming to be 'greedy'. (Funny the labels that could be applied to someone trying to prevent an accident happening). :smile:

A flashing rear light reminds the drivers behind me it's all about the safety.
User avatar
clackers
 
Posts: 1732
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 10:48 am
Location: Melbourne

Re: Where to Ride-Gutter Rat or Road Hog?????????

Postby zero » Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:00 pm

richbee wrote: There's a third advantage in that cars overtaking have to make a change of direction and are thereby more likely to leave more room.


The deviation of one car away from you, alerts drivers behind them in the queue of your presence, ie its an effective strategy for not being sideswiped by the third car in a traffic queue.
zero
 
Posts: 2579
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2010 1:54 pm

Re: Where to Ride-Gutter Rat or Road Hog?????????

Postby william » Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:36 pm

Russell,

Here is an experiment you can try.

Firstly, fit the brightest tail light or lights you can afford and aim them slightly askew towards the rear traffic. Flashing in rapid sequence if available.
Fit a mirror to observe the traffic.
Ride generally to the middle of the left half of your lane.

Then alternate riding closely to the left and observe any differing traffic behaviour.

I had an experience riding in a country road along the coast. Traffic is generally doing about 80-100 but generally 80. I was riding on the verge which was strewn with gravel in many places and found that more dangerous than riding on the road. When I was riding to the side, busses, trucks, cars towing boats etc would fly past with their wheels running very close to the white line. That being it was their lane and were using all of it. It was also scarily close to me because I had only a diminishing metre to ride with and crumbling broken edges.
Eventually I braved the main lane and watched my mirror like an eagle. I was quite surprised that just about every vehicle, including busses, would judge their timing to pass me. Occasionally I would move left if a big truck was coming as long as it was ok on the side. I even got a few thank you toots.
Ultimately though you need to judge for yourself if its safe to do so in your own ride. If an alternative route is available it may be worth the peace of mind too.

Watch Christine Tham's excellent video with her new Sony cam on Sydney streets. Watch her position. viewtopic.php?f=12&t=59303#p891784

Above all, Safety first, fun second.

william.
william
 
Posts: 469
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 8:33 am
Location: Maribyrnong,Victoria

Re: Where to Ride-Gutter Rat or Road Hog?????????

Postby merlin6014 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:45 pm

I dont ride on the road (cycleways and racing only) but from my perspective as a car driver I prefer it when the bike takes the whole lane - rules out the ambiguity of wondering whether its safe to squeeze past and wincing as you watch others do just that.
Image
merlin6014
 
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:13 am
Location: Sydney, NSW

Next

Return to General discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Exabot [Bot], outnabike, Yahoo [Bot]



Support BNA
Click for online shops
Torpedo 7 Torpedo7 AU
Ground Effect Ground Effect NZ
Chain Reaction Cycles CRC UK
Wiggle Wiggle UK
Cycling Express Cycling Express
Ebay Ebay AU
ProBikeKit ProBikeKit UK
Evans Cycles Evans Cycles UK
JensonUSA Jenson USA
JensonUSA Competitive Cyclist