Where to Ride-Gutter Rat or Road Hog?????????

[russell.bathard]

Has anyone statistics on cycling accidents and deaths relating to where the cyclist was positioned on the road when the accident occurred.Was the cyclist close to the gutter or riding further out in the lane, say in line with the passenger wheels of a car.Do these statistics differ for city suburban riding as opposed to highway or country riding.
I am a committed gutter rat. I am not brave enough to be a road hog.
Does a road hog hold his position on a road with oncoming traffic and a 40 ton truck behind him?
Does a road hog have the right to effectively block a lane of busy traffic?
What effect does this have on cyclist/motorist relationships?
If head on vehicle accidents can happen,and with texting, drugs and alcohol around, is a road hog actually safe in his position?
Is it possible that road hog accidents are fewer but more serious?
How does the position of the cyclist on the road effect the passing clearance given by vehicles?Have any studies been done on this?

[RonK]

Ah, so now you disparage those who would disagree with your riding style as road hogs.

You certainly have winning ways.

[AKO]

Ah, so now you disparage those who would disagree with your riding style as road hogs.

You certainly have winning ways.

He does refer to himself as a gutter rat though. Hardly a flattering self assessment.

[mattwilkinson]

Has anyone statistics on cycling accidents and deaths relating to where the cyclist was positioned on the road when the accident occurred.Was the cyclist close to the gutter or riding further out in the lane, say in line with the passenger wheels of a car.Do these statistics differ for city suburban riding as opposed to highway or country riding.
I am a committed gutter rat. I am not brave enough to be a road hog.
Does a road hog hold his position on a road with oncoming traffic and a 40 ton truck behind him?
Does a road hog have the right to effectively block a lane of busy traffic?
What effect does this have on cyclist/motorist relationships?
If head on vehicle accidents can happen,and with texting, drugs and alcohol around, is a road hog actually safe in his position?
Is it possible that road hog accidents are fewer but more serious?
How does the position of the cyclist on the road effect the passing clearance given by vehicles?Have any studies been done on this?

Road hogs?

There are instances when I hold a lane, For instance when I roll down a hill on the way to school, I hold my lane down to the roundabout and through.

And really, you don't need to be paranoid about it. Cars are more likely to see you in the lane because lets face it, How many drivers actually look in the bike lane as well before turning?

[Dan]

[insert argument here]

That first post would be like totes more interesting with like you know a hypothesis.

You have ten questions there in your initial post - why don't you google some and report back? 2000 words, Arial 11pt, 1 1/2 line spacing thanks. Due 2 March.

[il padrone]

Has anyone statistics on cycling accidents and deaths relating to where the cyclist was positioned on the road when the accident occurred.Was the cyclist close to the gutter or riding further out in the lane, say in line with the passenger wheels of a car.Do these statistics differ for city suburban riding as opposed to highway or country riding.

No data

Does a road hog hold his position on a road with oncoming traffic and a 40 ton truck behind him?

Yes

Does a road hog have the right to effectively block a lane of busy traffic?

Yes

What effect does this have on cyclist/motorist relationships?

Much improved. Shows strength of purpose.

If head on vehicle accidents can happen,and with texting, drugs and alcohol around, is a road hog actually safe in his position?

No different.

Is it possible that road hog accidents are fewer but more serious?

No data.

How does the position of the cyclist on the road effect the passing clearance given by vehicles?

You go wide, they go wide.

Have any studies been done on this?

No, at least not in Australia.

[Mulger bill]

I used to cringe along in the gutter and I used to have bulk vehicles of all descriptions attempt to amputate my right arm.

Now I don't and the frequency of attempts is down by almost but not quite shedloads.

I want to be seen, ergo I ride in the place where most drivers are looking.
If I could ride in the screen of the rest of thems phones I would do that too.

Act like a second class road user and that's how you'll be treated. I am a legitimate road user and I will be treated as such. Little can be done about the attitude of the Shaaaaaynes and Mervs in the world (it is hoped that blowing them kisses will cause aneurysms but this is yet to be proven).

[Mulger bill]

Oh yeah...

In reference to the third line of the above post, Do. The. Test.

[bychosis]

I'm a road hog, but I use my brains a little and where there is room to be off the road that's what I choose, the only time I 'm a gutter rat is to squeeze down beside stationary traffic that I wont hold up when we all take off.

[geoffs]

+ 1 to Il padrone's succinct reply.

I've been commuting in Sydney for over 30 years and I take the lane most times.
A rider who rides in the gutter faces a far greater risk of getting hit by either a passing car or getting doored.
In my view a gutter bunny is an accident waiting to happen and I've seen a few of them happen.
Ride like your a car but obey the road rules

[kb]

Not just vehicles behind. In my experience, right turners and left turners from side streets look down the centre of the road lane for traffic.

[il padrone]

Another point. When coming up to a vehicle waiting to enter from a left-hand side street, moving wider out on the road makes it appear to them that you are moving faster - a little optical illusion. Also you are better placed to avoid them if they do move out. All subject to following traffic of course, but this is most relevant when you have an empty road behind you.

[AndrewBurns]

I commute in Sydney traffic. Lots of people tell me I'm crazy for riding a bike on the road here but I could count the number of times I've had somebody drive around me in an unsafe manner in the last year on one hand and I attribute this to a confident and assertive presence on the road.

When riding to the left, ride where the left wheel of a car would be, not in the gutter. If you ride in the gutter the road surface is not as good, your visibility is much worse because drivers don't expect to look for vehicles that far left, you are too close to the doors of parked cars and you have to swerve out to go around parked cars which puts you in danger of being hit by cars from behind that didn't see you because you were somewhere they're not used to looking.

When coming up to a road obstacle such as a roundabout, traffic calming device, blind corner, narrow bridge etc. Look back at the car behind you so that you can make sure that they see you and indicate that you intend to drift right by sticking your arm out. If you were riding in the gutter than they either wouldn't see you indicate or they'd fancy their chances of moving up to cut you off which is why it's so important to ride in the left wheel track on the road. When you move out either move to the centre of the road or into the right wheel track, make it clear that you're intentionally blocking cars from passing you because of the hazard coming up. Before I did this people would occasionally try to pass me on the inside as we went around roundabouts, one wonderful person in an SUV tried, realised they didn't have enough space and then drove over the middle of the roundabout and cut in front of me at the exit. Now when I obviously and assertively take the lane and block cars behind from passing just before obstacles I actually find people are more willing to wait patiently until I move back left again and I've never once had any agro or dangerous driving because of it.

Having confidence riding on the road just takes experience. It's the same when you learn to drive, lots of beginner drivers are rather timid on the road which encourages other road users to drive recklessly and dangerously around them, once you learn to show a bit of confidence driver attitudes around you tend to calm down a bit.

[ILMB]

Very well said AndrewBurns. Posts like yours, and other posters of a like ilk, have allowed my confidence & sense of safety as a cyclist grow immensely since I started just on a year ago in Sydney.

[Mulger bill]

Very well said AndrewBurns. Posts like yours, and other posters of a like ilk, have allowed my confidence & sense of safety as a cyclist grow immensely since I started just on a year ago in Sydney.

Score!!! Welcome to the vehicular cyclists club

[rogan]

Not just vehicles behind. In my experience, right turners and left turners from side streets look down the centre of the road lane for traffic.

Yep, this. Much more visibility in all directions. You have fewer problems with motorists coming from behind, or oncoming, or in side streets. Also, motorists looking to turn across you in any of those conformations, as well as motorists looking to move away from a parking spot, or trying to change into your lane.

One point. In higher levels of traffic (that is moving traffic, in gridlock who cares? and you can't ride the centre of the lane anyway), I make it look like I am actually trying (whether or not I am), and not just out for a gentle dawdle.

[wombatK]

Does a road hog hold his position on a road with oncoming traffic and a 40 ton truck behind him?

This question shows an ignorance or lack of experience with cycling on actual roads. Most 40 ton trucks
occupy the full lane width. There is simply no space beside them for any putative gutter rat.
A cyclist won't be safe unless the 40 ton truck is behind him.

If you are silly enough to let them get beside you, be ready to bunny hop onto the footpath,
because they're very likely to wedge you off the road. Also make sure your ambulance and health
insurance are paid up.

As for the other questions, il padrone has answered them very well.

[il padrone]

Does a road hog hold his position on a road with oncoming traffic and a 40 ton truck behind him?

This question shows an ignorance or lack of experience with cycling on actual roads.

Yes, this is correct. And also two rather major misunderstandings of the road rules aka the law.

1. A cyclist is not a "road hog" - an insulting term to use on a cycling forum BTW. He/she is a road vehicle.

2. A cyclist riding in traffic at say, 20kmh is not blocking traffic. He/she is traffic.

By all means ride in the gutter if you wish but it will not make your experience any safer, nor any more pleasant, in fact it will make the experience a good deal more fraught.

As well as that such riding behaviour only goes to reinforce the misguided view that cyclists do not have a legitimate place on the road; that we do not have right to expect the same behaviour from motorists that they would give towards other drivers. Please, for the safety of all of us, don't do it. Hold your space and claim the lane where it is required. It is not "road-hogging".

[bychosis]

By all means ride in the gutter if you wish but it will not make your experience any safer, nor any more pleasant, in fact it will make the experience a good deal more fraught.

As well as that such riding behaviour only goes to reinforce the misguided view that cyclists do not have a legitimate place on the road; that we do not have right to expect the same behaviour from motorists that they would give towards other drivers. Please, for the safety of all of us, don't do it. Hold your space and claim the lane where it is required. It is not "road-hogging".

This.

Everytime a motorist sees a cyclist riding in the gutter it reinforces the opinion that they think they can squeeze through any old time.

[richbee]

It's all been said already, but I'm definitely one for holding my line/lane/piece of road/whatever. I usually cycle about a metre and a half out from the road edge which has for me two advantages - car tyres have swept my path clear of puncture causing debris (usually into the gutter), and I'm in drivers line of sight. There's a third advantage in that cars overtaking have to make a change of direction and are thereby more likely to leave more room. Yes there's the odd A-hole but they'd do that whether you were in the gutter or the middle of the lane.

Where there's a bike lane, I'll generally ride on the white line unless I am aware of a faster than me bunch behind in which case I'll give them room to pass before I retake my position. In heavy traffic, well the advantage of a narrow racing bike is I can squeeze though all manner of gaps, and use the superior acceleration of my Pinarello with bling bits to claim the lane at other times.

And remember, you are the traffic.

[Mulger bill]

...two advantages - car tyres have swept my path clear of puncture causing debris (usually into the gutter), and I'm in drivers line of sight.

And remember, you are the traffic.

Forgot about the swept line, damn excellent point. +42

[clackers]

Riding about a third of the way out from the edge seems to make cars put their wheels into the next lane, which makes me happy enough, while not seeming to be 'greedy'. (Funny the labels that could be applied to someone trying to prevent an accident happening).

A flashing rear light reminds the drivers behind me it's all about the safety.

[zero]

There's a third advantage in that cars overtaking have to make a change of direction and are thereby more likely to leave more room.

The deviation of one car away from you, alerts drivers behind them in the queue of your presence, ie its an effective strategy for not being sideswiped by the third car in a traffic queue.

[william]

Russell,

Here is an experiment you can try.

Firstly, fit the brightest tail light or lights you can afford and aim them slightly askew towards the rear traffic. Flashing in rapid sequence if available.
Fit a mirror to observe the traffic.
Ride generally to the middle of the left half of your lane.

Then alternate riding closely to the left and observe any differing traffic behaviour.

I had an experience riding in a country road along the coast. Traffic is generally doing about 80-100 but generally 80. I was riding on the verge which was strewn with gravel in many places and found that more dangerous than riding on the road. When I was riding to the side, busses, trucks, cars towing boats etc would fly past with their wheels running very close to the white line. That being it was their lane and were using all of it. It was also scarily close to me because I had only a diminishing metre to ride with and crumbling broken edges.
Eventually I braved the main lane and watched my mirror like an eagle. I was quite surprised that just about every vehicle, including busses, would judge their timing to pass me. Occasionally I would move left if a big truck was coming as long as it was ok on the side. I even got a few thank you toots.
Ultimately though you need to judge for yourself if its safe to do so in your own ride. If an alternative route is available it may be worth the peace of mind too.

Watch Christine Tham's excellent video with her new Sony cam on Sydney streets. Watch her position. viewtopic.php?f=12&t=59303#p891784" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Above all, Safety first, fun second.

william.

[merlin6014]

I dont ride on the road (cycleways and racing only) but from my perspective as a car driver I prefer it when the bike takes the whole lane - rules out the ambiguity of wondering whether its safe to squeeze past and wincing as you watch others do just that.