Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby Xplora » Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:10 pm

Just need to get a laptop huh? :|
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by BNA » Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:12 pm

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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:12 pm

sb944 wrote:After a bunch of googling, I decided to get a trainer, and move a big chunk of training to it. I got a Kurt Kinetic Road Machine, spare wheel, trainer tyres and ant+ usb.

For the trainer, it seemed resistance is what cheaper models lack, which means you'll go past it's maximum power in short bursts quite easily. Even the well respected Cycleops Fluid 2 can be pushed past that point apparently. The Road Machine and Cycleops Fluid Pro have bigger flywheels and avoid that. If you really want a sprint, there is a Pro flywheel upgrade for the Road Machine, but I haven't read of people buying that.

To those asking about tyres, there are countless examples of people chewing through normal tyres, nearly no examples of people upset after buying a trainer tyre. I bought a spare wheel and cassette (old cassette will go on the trainer wheel), and will swap the road wheel with the trainer wheel when I use the trainer. Either way, I'd advise to add that to the cost of getting properly setup on a trainer, it seems like it will pay off in the long run if you continue to use the trainer.

Power. A quality unit will give predictable resistance at different speeds. So as long as the bike is in the trainer in the same position, and the tyre is the same pressure, you should be able to accurately estimate your power efforts. Another alternative to that mentioned above is a subscription to trainerroad.com and get the ant+ stick. That will then show you current power statistics on your laptop, which is what I'm going to try. It works for most trainers. If the website doesn't offer anything else I care for, I'll probably just write my own power app for windows for the road machine, if there isn't already a freebie. This may not be 100% useful for use on the road or comparing with others, but it will help your current training, as you can get your FTP tested often, and train using that on the trainer.

Now it's just the usual wait from UK hopefully.

Good luck with it all. Doing lots of dedicated training indoors takes a fair bit of personal drive.

Just one comment - you can't do effective sprint work on any trainer such a KK or any unit that has a roller-tyre interface. They simply can't provide the resistance/inertia load necessary, and tyre slip will be significant. And it may not be safe either, let alone consider the bike behaves differently under maximal load when on a trainer than when unconstrained.

You can do hard work up to/including lactate tolerance, but forget about neuromuscular power development, that needs to be done on the road or track. It was possible on my special ergo bike to get enough resistance for genuine acceleration efforts, but keep in mind it had a 30kg flywheel with double reduction gearing is a far cry from any regular trainer.
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby The Walrus » Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:12 pm

This is all fascinating stuff but highly confusing to know how much to spend before you get something worth having for my needs.

The Jet black fluid seems a decent entry level option for not a huge price but is it worth spending more to get better...how long is a piece of string I guess!
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby sb944 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:24 am

To be honest, the cheapest I would advise based on reviews and forums is the Cycleops Fluid 2. Some like it better than the more expensive Kurt Kinetic, though the KK gets more wins when it comes to head to head reviews. It's $268 delivered from Wiggle if you use the promo code 20-OFF at checkout. I got the Kurt Kinetic for $333 delivered from Probikekit. I had to change the currency to UKP, then put in the promo code 25UP.

For me the extra $65 seemed quite easy to justify, but in your situation it would be a tougher choice to spend the extra, the Fluid 2 is by all accounts a high quality trainer.
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby BrisVegas » Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:37 am

The Walrus wrote:This is all fascinating stuff but highly confusing to know how much to spend before you get something worth having for my needs.

The Jet black fluid seems a decent entry level option for not a huge price but is it worth spending more to get better...how long is a piece of string I guess!


Had my first go on the Z1 last night, as I wanted to muck around with the tension and check my cadence and heart rate. In other words, lots of fiddling about, which was safer to do indoors than on the river loop at 5am in the dark!

Following the instructions to give it 1.5-2 turns of resistance once the wheel touches the roller seemed pretty solid. It's obvious straight away that it's much harder that riding a bike on the flat. It feels almost like riding up a 1-2% gradient constantly. I was mid-cluster on the small chainring and doing 90rpm and 25kmh roughly. Started to sweat pretty quickly while I was madly pressing buttons on my (new to me) Garmin and customising screens, so decided to stick with it for a bit. Did 20 minutes and created a decent sized puddle of sweat on the floor! I reckon if you could do a solid hour on these things, it'd be worth at least double that on the road. I'll need to keep some towels and a mop and bucket handy if I do longer stints on this thing!

I can't comment on the more expensive units, but I'm impressed so far with the Jet Black Z1. It's fairly quiet, feels solid and gives a heck of a workout.
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:00 am

BrisVegas wrote:Started to sweat pretty quickly while I was madly pressing buttons on my (new to me) Garmin and customising screens, so decided to stick with it for a bit. Did 20 minutes and created a decent sized puddle of sweat on the floor! I reckon if you could do a solid hour on these things, it'd be worth at least double that on the road. I'll need to keep some towels and a mop and bucket handy if I do longer stints on this thing!

High power fans are an essential item to include in the budget when looking at an indoor trainer set up.

So even if the trainer is fairly quiet, it'll be drowned out by the noise of the industrial sized cooling fan needed to make a training session effective.

Put it this way, if you typically ride at 25-30km/h outside, you have a breeze of that strength flowing over your entire body keeping your cool and wicking the sweat off your skin. Once core temp begins to rise, even a little, performance degrades significantly.
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby elStado » Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:37 pm

Check out my practical cycling and cycle touring website: VELOPHILE AUSTRALIA
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:56 pm

elStado wrote:RULE #5

One can HU all they like, but if cooling is inadequate, training will be compromised and be less effective.
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby Xplora » Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:18 pm

Just chatting with jack1071 and he confirmed you could get a pretty accurate estimate of your power based on the Kurt speed graph. If you are working towards a specific band Z4 for 20 minutes, you could reasonably guess the power output based on the speedo - this will only work if you've got a speedo, a trainer that is consistent and a formula that it can apply to.

Won't beat an SRM, but it will be better than nothing or HRM. I'm going to pony up for the Road Machine asap once Minister of Finance has approved the purchase authorisation :oops:
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby sb944 » Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:08 pm

I've started writing my project to display current speed/cadence/watts/time on my laptop while on the trainer. It may not be that special at first, but I'll be able to customize it as I get ideas about what might help with training.

Where power is poorly estimated using those formulas is shifts in speed, ie accelerating/decelerating. As an example, I could stop pedalling and the next second still might be doing 30km/h, therefore generating 250W without pedalling. I'd like to make that more accurate, but it won't make a huge difference for what I'll be doing the first few weeks, so I'll likely start light and build the app up as needed.
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby The Walrus » Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:21 pm

sb944 wrote:To be honest, the cheapest I would advise based on reviews and forums is the Cycleops Fluid 2. Some like it better than the more expensive Kurt Kinetic, though the KK gets more wins when it comes to head to head reviews. It's $268 delivered from Wiggle if you use the promo code 20-OFF at checkout. I got the Kurt Kinetic for $333 delivered from Probikekit. I had to change the currency to UKP, then put in the promo code 25UP.

For me the extra $65 seemed quite easy to justify, but in your situation it would be a tougher choice to spend the extra, the Fluid 2 is by all accounts a high quality trainer.



Would that KK be this one?

http://www.cycling-inform.com/store/pro ... ainer.html
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby Xplora » Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:26 pm

^^ Road Machine - the fluid based trainer.
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby The Walrus » Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:40 pm

Wrong link!

http://www.cycling-inform.com/store/pro ... ainer.html

Looks like its between the Z1 or the Road machine in the kind of price range I'm considering but quite a difference in price
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby sb944 » Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:43 pm

I'm talking about the Road Machine, here is a link with their current trainers:
http://www.kurtkinetic.com/trainers-c-7-l-en.html

Got mine last night, set it up with wifes bike first, seemed rock solid without giving it a good test yet.
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby The Walrus » Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:58 pm

sb944 wrote:I'm talking about the Road Machine, here is a link with their current trainers:
http://www.kurtkinetic.com/trainers-c-7-l-en.html

Got mine last night, set it up with wifes bike first, seemed rock solid without giving it a good test yet.


For $333 delivered? That seems like a great price from what I've seen elsewhere
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby Xplora » Fri Mar 15, 2013 4:05 pm

333 is probably the cycleops.

www.frugalrouleur.com should confirm. Prolite Oz has the Kurt Road machine delivered 419 dollars with Oz warranty - it's so heavy that I'm not sure you'd want to be fighting over warranty returns to the UK :shock:
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby The Walrus » Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:08 pm

Xplora wrote:333 is probably the cycleops.

http://www.frugalrouleur.com should confirm. Prolite Oz has the Kurt Road machine delivered 419 dollars with Oz warranty - it's so heavy that I'm not sure you'd want to be fighting over warranty returns to the UK :shock:



Good point about warranty...

Anyone know what the CycleOps Fluid 2 trainer is like?

http://www.cyclingexpress.com/cycle/cyc ... 95000.aspx
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby sb944 » Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:32 pm

$333 was ProBikeKit after taking off 25 pound discount using their discount code last week. $0 shipping too.

The Cycleops Fluid 2 is supposed to be an excellent unit also, a little less resistance than the Road Machine from all accounts. There is also a Fluid Pro which has the bigger flywheel for more resistance
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby The Walrus » Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:41 pm

sb944 wrote:$333 was ProBikeKit after taking off 25 pound discount using their discount code last week. $0 shipping too.

The Cycleops Fluid 2 is supposed to be an excellent unit also, a little less resistance than the Road Machine from all accounts. There is also a Fluid Pro which has the bigger flywheel for more resistance


Cycling Express have the CycleOps Fluid 2 Pro for $350 but another 12.5% off (this weekend only I think) makes it $306...seems like a good option
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby Xplora » Sat Mar 16, 2013 2:27 pm

Depends what your goals are - the Road Machine is recommended by the dudes from http://www.trainerroad.com as the best one out there for consistency at the price point - it's not a Wahoo Kickr or Computrainer etc which cost twice as much. If your goal is to improve via power workouts at a certain price point, then the Road Machine is going to be a lot better than the competition. You COULD use the Jetblack Z1 or Cycleops etc etc which are a bit cheaper, but you might be able to avoid an upgrade to a power meter for a while because of the superior aspects of the Road Machine.

If your goal is to spin your legs when its raining, you're probably spending too much with any of these ones. You just have to ask yourself, do I want to spend 100, 300, 500, 1000 or 2000 bucks? It doesn't matter how much you spend if you don't need it. Road Machine seems to match my budget and goals.
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby norbs » Sun Mar 17, 2013 3:41 am

I have just got the JetBlack Fluid Dyno.

Some info here for those interested.

http://cycling.norbtech.com/2013/03/set ... e-trainer/
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby Xplora » Sun Mar 17, 2013 3:03 pm

That review sealed the deal for me - I don't think it would be ideal for what I'm after. The dynometer is HUGE. It's from the same school of thought as wannabe drag racers with their "I've spent too much time in the bathroom and now I'm blind" dials :lol:
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby The Walrus » Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:22 am

Xplora wrote:If your goal is to spin your legs when its raining, you're probably spending too much with any of these ones. You just have to ask yourself, do I want to spend 100, 300, 500, 1000 or 2000 bucks? It doesn't matter how much you spend if you don't need it. Road Machine seems to match my budget and goals.


This confuses me more than ever! So if I'm just wanting to do a few k's when the weather is wet what should I be spending?
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby Bob_TAS » Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:40 am

I've had a Kurt Kinetic Road Machine for a couple of years now and it hasn't let me down. Might be a bit more expensive than some others, but IMHO well worth the dinero.
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby Xplora » Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:02 pm

The Walrus wrote:
Xplora wrote:If your goal is to spin your legs when its raining, you're probably spending too much with any of these ones. You just have to ask yourself, do I want to spend 100, 300, 500, 1000 or 2000 bucks? It doesn't matter how much you spend if you don't need it. Road Machine seems to match my budget and goals.


This confuses me more than ever! So if I'm just wanting to do a few k's when the weather is wet what should I be spending?

Probably 300 on the Jetblack Z1 fluid trainer? www.cellbikes.com.au for the click through. I'd be getting that one except I don't see the point in saving 100 bucks on a tool that I hope will be useful for my wife as well, as well as me getting towards ULTIMATE BREWTUL POWER :shock:

I've been looking at power meter books, software, etc etc. methinks my expectations are higher than yours... that was my point. If you don't need the world, don't overspend.
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