Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby Yorkie » Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:14 am

Pulling the trigger on a kickr - will post something when I've used it. Anyone else having a crack?
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by BNA » Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:54 am

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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby sb944 » Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:54 am

The Walrus wrote:
Xplora wrote:If your goal is to spin your legs when its raining, you're probably spending too much with any of these ones. You just have to ask yourself, do I want to spend 100, 300, 500, 1000 or 2000 bucks? It doesn't matter how much you spend if you don't need it. Road Machine seems to match my budget and goals.


This confuses me more than ever! So if I'm just wanting to do a few k's when the weather is wet what should I be spending?


Actually, make that $229 delivered with a riser:
http://www.bikes.com.au/p/1102912/2013-jetblack-z1-fluid-hydrogel-trainer.html

As for whether to spend more, I felt I had to to get more resistance. I'm almost 100kg, so have to put out a lot of power to keep up with the light weights. This may not bother you, in which case go for the deal above.

I have my Road Machine now, absolutely no dramas with build quality or setup, just waiting for one part from PBK before I swap my training to this unit. The joggers in LCNP will be happy about that :D
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby Xplora » Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:19 am

Kickr was just too much money for me - I'd rather spend the money on a crank based power meter and get a cheaper trainer so I could use power outside
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby Trek_Arty » Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:31 pm

Xplora wrote:Kickr was just too much money for me - I'd rather spend the money on a crank based power meter and get a cheaper trainer so I could use power outside


How about a power hub as a cheaper alternative to the crank as well? just a thought....
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby norbs » Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:59 pm

A turbo trainer that has ANT+ so you can log power would be great. Do they exist?
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby george-bob » Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:05 pm

norbs: check out trainer road, it uses wheel speed (from ant+ sensor) to determine power based on your trainers power curve. so you plug an ant+ into your computer and get to train with power for cheap!
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby norbs » Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:15 pm

george-bob wrote:norbs: check out trainer road, it uses wheel speed (from ant+ sensor) to determine power based on your trainers power curve. so you plug an ant+ into your computer and get to train with power for cheap!


Thanks george-bob. Plenty of people have suggested it, but being subscription based rules it out for me sadly.
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:25 pm

george-bob wrote:norbs: check out trainer road, it uses wheel speed (from ant+ sensor) to determine power based on your trainers power curve. so you plug an ant+ into your computer and get to train with power for cheap!

Or if you prefer your own software and not a subscription model, then PerfPro software does the same thing and more.
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby norbs » Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:41 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
george-bob wrote:norbs: check out trainer road, it uses wheel speed (from ant+ sensor) to determine power based on your trainers power curve. so you plug an ant+ into your computer and get to train with power for cheap!

Or if you prefer your own software and not a subscription model, then PerfPro software does the same thing and more.


Thanks Alex, but it doesn't help with my original question about trainers with ANT+ compatibility.

PerfPro needs that and also Windows, which I don't run.
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby Xplora » Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:44 pm

Power hub seems like a good plan, Arty, except you end up committed to using a training wheel instead of a race wheel... or you're training on your race wheel, which can be a bit nutso out the back of Freemans Reach! At least you're only restricting yourself to the one bike for power use.

Seen a few Quarqs on Merlin Cycles for 1200 bucks new, definitely shifts the perception of which direction to go!
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:20 pm

norbs wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
george-bob wrote:norbs: check out trainer road, it uses wheel speed (from ant+ sensor) to determine power based on your trainers power curve. so you plug an ant+ into your computer and get to train with power for cheap!

Or if you prefer your own software and not a subscription model, then PerfPro software does the same thing and more.


Thanks Alex, but it doesn't help with my original question about trainers with ANT+ compatibility.

PerfPro needs that and also Windows, which I don't run.

Why does the trainer need ANT+ when you can use an ANT+ speed sensor?

Golden Cheetah have been working on trainer interaction on non wondows platforms (Linux/Mac).
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby norbs » Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:58 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:[
Why does the trainer need ANT+ when you can use an ANT+ speed sensor?

Golden Cheetah have been working on trainer interaction on non wondows platforms (Linux/Mac).


Mainly because I would rather just upload my data to Strava and have it all in one place. Indoor and outdoor rides.

If the trainer had ANT+ I could use the Garmin 800 to log ALL the data and upload to Strava.

I don't really want to be interrogating multiple sets of data.
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby sb944 » Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:45 pm

Tempting, $726 for Cycleops Powertap trainer wheel on Wiggle with 15-EXTRA. Pull the trigger xplora!!!
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby Xplora » Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:55 pm

Just ponied up for the Road Machine (thanks Deon+Pro lite), will just use the speedo for a while methinks. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sat Mar 23, 2013 6:46 am

norbs wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:[
Why does the trainer need ANT+ when you can use an ANT+ speed sensor?

Golden Cheetah have been working on trainer interaction on non wondows platforms (Linux/Mac).


Mainly because I would rather just upload my data to Strava and have it all in one place. Indoor and outdoor rides.

If the trainer had ANT+ I could use the Garmin 800 to log ALL the data and upload to Strava.

I don't really want to be interrogating multiple sets of data.

OK, forgive me if I'm a bit confused, but what data are you looking to upload and have alongside your outdoor rides?

I see two possibilities: You currently use a power meter or you don't.

If the former, then that's the common denominator for providing the ANT+ data stream whether indoors or out. Not that Strava is much chop when it comes to post-hoc analysis of such information.

If the latter, then the question becomes what trainer ride data are you wanting to upload to Strava that you can't already get from your on bike ANT+ devices?
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby sb944 » Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:04 am

Congrats xplora!

Alex, I think he's saying he'd like the trainer to send "power" data via ant+, so his garmin would think he's got a cadence/speed/power when he's on the trainer. It would be technically possible if you told the trainer the bike you were using, it could calculate the watts from the spinning of the resistance wheel. Don't know of a unit that does it though.
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:53 pm

sb944 wrote:Congrats xplora!

Alex, I think he's saying he'd like the trainer to send "power" data via ant+, so his garmin would think he's got a cadence/speed/power when he's on the trainer. It would be technically possible if you told the trainer the bike you were using, it could calculate the watts from the spinning of the resistance wheel. Don't know of a unit that does it though.

The Lemond Power Pilot (paired with the Lemond Revolution) but it's pretty fiddly to get the data out.
There is the Bcool trainer system which uses ANT+ but it's only available in Europe.
Wahoo Kickr of course, not sure when it will come to Australia.

And of course any modern power meter.
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby norbs » Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:30 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:OK, forgive me if I'm a bit confused, but what data are you looking to upload and have alongside your outdoor rides?

I see two possibilities: You currently use a power meter or you don't.

If the former, then that's the common denominator for providing the ANT+ data stream whether indoors or out. Not that Strava is much chop when it comes to post-hoc analysis of such information.

If the latter, then the question becomes what trainer ride data are you wanting to upload to Strava that you can't already get from your on bike ANT+ devices?


Probably my fault for being so fragmented in my explanation.

I would just like to have the normal data that my Garmin collects for outdoor rides. Speed, cadence & HR. An added bonus would have been power as well for my indoor trainer rides, as the trainers head unit displays power.

I realise now that this is basically just a figure spat out by some calculations based purely on speed. So I can probably work it out if I can figure out what my speed equates to in power.

Being new to the whole trainer business, I thought that if the trainer knows your power, and it was ANT+, you could log your power using the Garmin.

And yes, I agree that Strava isn't the best thing for analysing power data, but it is probably good enough for me.

I am not training for anything in particular, just trying to get fitter and stronger on the bike.
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby Summernight » Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:37 pm

Anyone tried the Kurt Kinetic Rock and Roll as opposed to the Road Machine? It looks interesting.
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby sb944 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:57 am

Finally got all the bits I needed for my Kurt Kinetic Road Machine. The wife has had about 5 rides on it, so I was dying to have a crack, but patiently waited for all the tools I needed to arrive. Last night was hectic, so didn't get out to the garage until about 9:30pm, but in two hours replaced cassettes, removed wheels, hooked up the trainer wheel and then put it all on the trainer. Then I synced up the garmin ant+ usb key, downloaded and configure trainerroad, and gaffa taped a magnet to my wheel (after realising no magnet = no speed = no power estimates).

Rear wheel was pumped up to 105psi with a trainer tyre, resistance was turned in 3 full rotations from touching the tyre, but was stiff to turn, so went back to 2.5 rotations and it felt about right.

On the bike this morning at 6:30am, fan on, windows open, laptop ready, loaded up spinervals 27.0 threshhold test, which has a few short spurts, a 3 minute, then 3x 1 minute then a 20 minute FTP tests, followed by a few 20 second bursts, with breaks in between, 1 hour all up. First surprise was it felt very nice to ride, and way quieter than I expected. It feels clunky the first 3 seconds, then you don't notice it again the whole ride, and can focus on your pedalling/speed/power, which already makes it a lot different to a road where you constantly need to focus on a lot of different factors. I can also understand why it wouldn't be for everyone, because there are no another distractions, and you have no excuses like corners or cross roads to get a quick relief from the pain.

The cadence was pretty weird. I like to sit around 80-100 rpm usually, but took ages to get this to feel right over 70 rpm. By the time the 20 minute test came up, I'd finally made it up to mid 80's average, and was doing mid 90's for the last 5 minutes of that test. So it got better, but I felt far better doing extremely low cadence early on.

The speedo felt surprisingly close to what I'd hold on a flattish road, during the 20 minute test, though it is hard to tell, as I've almost never ridden an actual flattish road. But I did appreciate that even when doing the 20 second test and putting out supposed 730W average, the resistance was still there, and it felt like it had a bit in reserve too. I never tried an all out sprint just yet, but imagine there would be a point where it would get a little too spinny.

I always sweat a lot during excersize, but wouldn't say this was an unusual amount of sweating, though a small puddle was formed with my regular fan on me. Interestingly the puddle was completely on the right side of the bike, which might show I have a slight problem with my position on the bike. One of the other advantages of the trainer is to be able to warm up, then do these hard rides with a camera on me, and see problems in what I'm doing on the bike, like rocking, or favouring a side. I didn't have a problem with sitting down for the whole session, but I have been training like that for a few weeks now.

Trainerroad is fairly slick. This sort of tool is obviously the gateway drug to a real power meter. I liked how power surged when accelerating, so they've obviuosly worked fairly hard at the maths of how much power a trainer would put out, rather than just applying their simple trainer formula to convert speed to watts. I would also say the power is going to vary wildly from user to user, as tyre pressure, how tight the roller is, general bike effectiveness etc will probably make some big differences. That said, you can control this for yourself, so it's definitely useful for your own training.

Changed the wheels, also changed my clothes, then hit the road for work. I felt very connected with the bike after that session (also had a new cassette which feels great), also felt nice to get a breeze blowing into you. As I had predicted, I'm happy with that first session, and plan to spend a lot of time training up on this rather than on the road.
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby Xplora » Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:42 pm

You could take an Average speed for the FTP test to determine the watts over 30 minutes, couldn't you? Trainerroad isn't going to get my dollars, just going to work out the FTP and use Joe Friel's power meter book. More pennies towards the quarq budget LOL
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby Xplora » Sun Mar 31, 2013 12:12 am

I've done my FTP test, got some rough and ready figures and a set up to work from. 290W FTP at 72.5kgs was just under 4w/kg. It's no power meter, but it's a starting point. Doing the 30 minute test was very helpful. Basically started in one gear, lifted one gear at 10 minutes, and then pounded it out. There is a very real logarithmic perception of pain when you know you have to reach a certain point, and your body just turns the screws on your mind as you try and push through.

BTW I basically aimed at a particular cadence for the 30 minute test, and took the resulting "distance" and multiplied by 2 to give a speed per hour and then ran Kurt's formulae. This hopefully was a nice steady way to generate the power for the timeframe. I've GOT to learn to back off before the paceline crush down Windsor Road... the body has limits, and I'm using them :idea:
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby Lukeyboy » Sun Mar 31, 2013 10:09 am

norbs wrote:I would just like to have the normal data that my Garmin collects for outdoor rides. Speed, cadence & HR. An added bonus would have been power as well for my indoor trainer rides, as the trainers head unit displays power.

That's what I do with my Garmin 800 on my trainer. I just turn the GPS on and away I go on the trainer. No need for the trainer to have any ant+ as the bike has all the equipment to do so with the Garmin GSC 10 speed and cadence sensors.
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby MrDerrickC » Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:31 am

Excuse my ignorance, what is the difference between using a specific trainer tyre (one that kurt produces) vs normal road tyre? Also I read about wear on tyres on the trainer (which I expect anyway), how much does it compare to riding normally on the road?
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby sb944 » Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:56 am

MrDerrickC wrote:Excuse my ignorance, what is the difference between using a specific trainer tyre (one that kurt produces) vs normal road tyre? Also I read about wear on tyres on the trainer (which I expect anyway), how much does it compare to riding normally on the road?


Two reasons. A trainer tyre can withstand the heat a trainer builds up with heavy use, and also it's also got no tread pattern, which helps avoid slipping better and any false readings of speed/power. There are plenty of stories around the net of people chewing through good tyres in one spirited trainer session, then getting 10000 miles plus with a trainer tyre.
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