A new take on "I never tested positive"

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A new take on "I never tested positive"

Postby gretaboy » Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:37 pm

This news article is an interesting one

http://www.news.com.au/sport/new-study- ... 6661457505

Takes a different approach to "testing"

"Forget 'I never tested positive'. It needs to be replaced by 'I was never clocked by a radar doing 430 watts standards in the final col of a long mountain stage.' It's utterly more convincing. "We placed our radars at the following thresholds: "Suspicious" at 410 watts standard, "Miraculous" at 430 watts, and "Mutant" at 450 watts."

But then again, if you know where the "testers" are I am sure you could fake it during that section
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by BNA » Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:21 pm

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Re: A new take on "I never tested positive"

Postby twizzle » Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:21 pm

Power without weight or frontal area/drag is just a meaningless number.
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Re: A new take on "I never tested positive"

Postby find_bruce » Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:21 pm

It's a good theory. If I am reading it correctly, this is estimated power, where the known factors are the average gradient, metres climbed and the time taken. Power figures are then based upon estimated weight, and the reference to "radar" is merely a metaphor.

Pharmstrong was always very careful not to disclose his weight & would make that point when a number of analysts questioned his high power figures.

Of course it can and is measured, religiously by the teams. As a doping indicator though, wouldn't it have the same issues as the blood passport ?
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Re: A new take on "I never tested positive"

Postby jules21 » Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:40 pm

i have an even better radar for doping - final GC position in the Tour between 1992-200x.

pro cycling is like holding a survival contest on a desert island with 200 contestants with a rule against consuming any food or drink, but leaving a loaf of bread and jug of water out in the open. when the winner prevails and the food and drink is missing, we then debate ad nauseum whether they are a champion or cheat.
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Re: A new take on "I never tested positive"

Postby Mulger bill » Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:49 pm

Not to mention being able to account for only 193 contestants at the finish and several freshly dug areas around the island :wink:

I'd be wary of using calculated numbers for something like this. Maybe it's time for realtime GPS and powermeter telemetry from all riders in the official tent?
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Re: A new take on "I never tested positive"

Postby clackers » Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:52 am

Mulger bill wrote:
I'd be wary of using calculated numbers for something like this. Maybe it's time for realtime GPS and powermeter telemetry from all riders in the official tent?


If a radical step is needed to fight public perception (and it took till not long ago for cycling to be confirmed for future Olympics), then make all that data publicly available ... yes, even to the opponents.

The owner of one of my LBS (former Hong Kong Olympian and national coach) said you don't need routine inspections to pinpoint who needs to be targeted for specific testing, you just go over their power outputs from race days.

Michele Ferrari didn't even need that data ... he used to be given the times and routes of enemy climbers and would do his VAM calculation (part of Strava, even, IIRC).
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Re: A new take on "I never tested positive"

Postby gretaboy » Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:59 am

The numbers dont have to be given to other competitors...but if the people in charge are honest and true, and my perception is that with Lance the people in charge may have overlooked vital information on purpose, then why not have the data uploaded at the end of each stage and scrutinized.

If any data gets leaked, then prosecute the ones who dealt with the information, have rules in place to cover this aspect.

Use it conjunction with the blood passport. This if they are really serious about cleaning the sport up.
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Re: A new take on "I never tested positive"

Postby Ross » Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:34 am

data compiled by French performance expert and former Festina trainer Antoine Voyer


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festina_affair
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Re: A new take on "I never tested positive"

Postby jules21 » Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:35 am

Ross wrote:
data compiled by French performance expert and former Festina trainer Antoine Voyer


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festina_affair

that's never been made a secret
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Re: A new take on "I never tested positive"

Postby clackers » Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:34 am

gretaboy wrote:The numbers dont have to be given to other competitors...


They'll have to be, like the scrutineers at election ballot boxes who include representatives of the parties.

This is because as Tyler Hamilton and Michael Ashenden have said, the UCI has a conflict of interest when they are both the police and promoters of the sport.
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Re: A new take on "I never tested positive"

Postby Sharkey » Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:07 pm

Here is a Velonews article on the same thing with a bit more info about specific riders: New report presents data-driven doubts on performances past and present

Including this:
Thomas Voeckler, Hinault and Wiggins fall into Not Normal’s suspicious category; Chris Froome, Andy Schleck and Laurent Jalabert into the miraculous; Alberto Contador, Miguel Indurain, Jan Ullrich, and Lance Armstrong fall into the mutant classification on some performances, or had at times in their careers.


The first 18 pages of the 148 page book are available free here: Not Normal? free preview
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Re: A new take on "I never tested positive"

Postby __PG__ » Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:32 pm

As I was arguing with a work colleague and fellow cyclist, Indurain was a 'mutant' already in terms of his standing heart rate, lung capacity, VO2 max. Plus he was tall with a long femur.

Physically the man was a freak even before he took EPO.
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Re: A new take on "I never tested positive"

Postby __PG__ » Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:42 pm

I just googled this interesting analysis of Indurain today : The cycling physiology of Miguel Indurain 14 years after retirement.
Mujika I. wrote:Age-related fitness declines in athletes can be due to both aging and detraining. Very little is known about the physiological and performance decline of professional cyclists after retirement from competition. To gain some insight into the aging and detraining process of elite cyclists, 5-time Tour de France winner and Olympic Champion Miguel Indurain performed a progressive cycle-ergometer test to exhaustion 14 y after retirement from professional cycling (age 46 y, body mass 92.2 kg). His maximal values were oxygen uptake 5.29 L/min (57.4 mL · kg-1 · min-1), aerobic power output 450 W (4.88 W/kg), heart rate 191 beats/min, blood lactate 11.2 mM. Values at the individual lactate threshold (ILT): 4.28 L/min (46.4 mL · kg-1 · min-1), 329 W (3.57 W/kg), 159 beats/min, 2.4 mM. Values at the 4-mM onset of blood lactate accumulation (OBLA): 4.68 L/min (50.8 mL · kg-1 · min-1), 369 W (4.00 W/kg), 170 beats/min. Average cycling gross efficiency between 100 and 350 W was 20.1%, with a peak value of 22.3% at 350 W. Delta efficiency was 27.04%. Absolute maximal oxygen uptake and aerobic power output declined by 12.4% and 15.2% per decade, whereas power output at ILT and OBLA declined by 19.8% and 19.2%. Larger declines in maximal and submaximal values relative to body mass (19.4-26.1%) indicate that body composition changed more than aerobic characteristics. Nevertheless, Indurain's absolute maximal and submaximal oxygen uptake and power output still compare favorably with those exhibited by active professional cyclists.

92 kgs..he needs to spend more time on the bike :wink:

His measured VO2 max of 57.4 mL · kg-1 · min-1 has dropped somewhat from his recorded maximum of 88 (Greg Le Mond recorded 92).
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Re: A new take on "I never tested positive"

Postby clackers » Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:35 pm

Good links, guys.

I remember looking at Jens Voigt's data for a ride published in Bicycling magazine and thinking ... this should simply be the way for all riders ... a matter of public record, never mind that the numbers tell the opposition exactly who's in good form or feeling badly.

Accountability will have to trump the mind games team directors like to play.
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Re: A new take on "I never tested positive"

Postby toolonglegs » Thu Jun 13, 2013 4:57 pm

Make all data freely available... simple, just stop racing with a power meter.
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Re: A new take on "I never tested positive"

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:38 pm

all it will do is introduce data doping along with physiological doping.
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Re: A new take on "I never tested positive"

Postby dalai47 » Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:47 pm

DigitalEPO software, just in reverse!
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Re: A new take on "I never tested positive"

Postby Mulger bill » Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:51 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:all it will do is introduce data doping along with physiological doping.

Which is why real time monitoring using organiser provided equipment would be needed.
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Re: A new take on "I never tested positive"

Postby toolonglegs » Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:18 pm

Mulger bill wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:all it will do is introduce data doping along with physiological doping.

Which is why real time monitoring using organiser provided equipment would be needed.

UCI would have to inforce a rule for all riders to run a powermeter and an aerial, they would have to check calibration before every stage on every bike ( including spares ) 600 bikes / wheels a day in a TDF maybe, they would have to force everyone to run standard round chainrings ( not more Oval's ) etc etc... it will never happen.
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Re: A new take on "I never tested positive"

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:45 pm

Mulger bill wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:all it will do is introduce data doping along with physiological doping.

Which is why real time monitoring using organiser provided equipment would be needed.

Aside from what TLL points out, it's just barking up the wrong tree.

"Performance based doping control", for want of a better phrase, is meaningless because it only puts a spotlight on the leading performers who are already under scrutiny, but does nothing to identify those dopers who are not GC contenders but still influence the outcome of races and dupe legitimate riders out of opportunity.
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