Armstrong scape goat

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Armstrong scape goat

Postby Mylotian » Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:38 am

I recently watched a documentary of the Tour on SBS and was surprised to learn that drugs have been part of the tour since the 50"s possibly earlier. I'm just appalled how LA has been singled out as the worst offender. The hypocrisy of the ruling body really gets my goat considering the systemic use of drugs in professional cycling since early times. How many other all time greats where doing drugs to aid their success. LA still has my vote, how do you feel :?:
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by BNA » Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:03 am

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Re: Armstrong scape goat

Postby biker jk » Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:03 am

:shock:

Armstrong is the greatest doping cheat in history. He ran a team wide systematic doping operation, had exclusive access to the best doping doctor in Michele Ferrari and could dope with impunity thanks to being protected by the UCI. Armstrong is not Pantani, Ulrich or any other doper in terms of the scale and success of his doping. Blood doping/EPO can tranform mid-pack TdF riders into champions. It was a whole different level of performance enhancement never seen before in the history of cycling. Armstrong was offered the opportunity to tell all he knew but refused so a lifetime ban and the stripping of his seven TdF "wins" was entirely appropriate. I won't go into the issue of how Armstrong may have developed cancer and the bona fide of the Lance Armstrong Foundation. Perhaps you can do some research
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Re: Armstrong scape goat

Postby trailgumby » Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:05 am

This has been done to death already. You need to read The Crooked Path To Victory by Les Woodland. PEDs in cycling go way back to the 1880s in fact. They just weren't specifically illegal for performance enhancement until the 60s.

What sets LA apart in terms of hypocrisy is the destruction he meted out to his critics such as Greg LeMond, whose business he destroyed, Emma OReilly his masseuse and physio, the Andrieus who were with him when he admitted it to his doctors way back when he was first diagnosed with testicular cancer, and anyone else who dared challenge him with the truth. And then setting up his cancer "charity" ... when there is reason to believe his PED regime may have triggered his testicular cancer. :roll:

Sure, in his era you had to do it to win. That's not what gets me riled with Cancer Jesus. It's all the other stuff he did.

The reason PEDs are illegal is they kill people. Do your homework on Tom Simpson. There are hundreds of others in cycling alone.
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Re: Armstrong scape goat

Postby herzog » Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:07 am

Mylotian wrote:I recently watched a documentary of the Tour on SBS and was surprised to learn that drugs have been part of the tour since the 50"s possibly earlier. I'm just appalled how LA has been singled out as the worst offender. The hypocrisy of the ruling body really gets my goat considering the systemic use of drugs in professional cycling since early times. How many other all time greats where doing drugs to aid their success. LA still has my vote, how do you feel :?:


Oh come on.

No one's drug taking impacted as many innocent people as Armstrongs. The way he brought down his detractors through legal action etc took a massive personal toll on those who were simply trying to do the right thing.

He also pressured junior teammates to dope, and had so much influence that he was able to kill off the careers of those who refused.

If he "still has your vote" what does that say about your ethics?
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Re: Armstrong scape goat

Postby ratter » Sun Jun 30, 2013 11:30 am

very strong opinions and completely true, well done
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Re: Armstrong scape goat

Postby queequeg » Sun Jun 30, 2013 11:51 am

sort of related, but noticed last night that Matt White has been quietly reinstated as GreenEDGE sports director after he got dumped for his doping whilst a rider on Armstrong's team.
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Re: Armstrong scape goat

Postby Mulger bill » Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:00 pm

biker jk wrote::shock:

Armstrong is the greatest doping cheat in history. He ran a team wide systematic doping operation, had exclusive access to the best doping doctor in Michele Ferrari and could dope with impunity thanks to being protected by the UCI. Armstrong is not Pantani, Ulrich or any other doper in terms of the scale and success of his doping. Blood doping/EPO can tranform mid-pack TdF riders into champions. It was a whole different level of performance enhancement never seen before in the history of cycling. Armstrong was offered the opportunity to tell all he knew but refused so a lifetime ban and the stripping of his seven TdF "wins" was entirely appropriate. I won't go into the issue of how Armstrong may have developed cancer and the bona fide of the Lance Armstrong Foundation. Perhaps you can do some research

This. Bold, capped and underlined in a 10,000 sized font.

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Re: Armstrong scape goat

Postby Mylotian » Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:11 pm

Maybe I was being naive not knowing the extent of Lance's mafia.
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Re: Armstrong scape goat

Postby Mulger bill » Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:19 pm

Mylotian wrote:Maybe I was being naive not knowing the extent of Lance's mafia.


No mate, you were like thousands of us who were sick of the game then being played and thought something decent had rolled up.
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Re: Armstrong scape goat

Postby ratter » Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:44 pm

queequeg wrote:sort of related, but noticed last night that Matt White has been quietly reinstated as GreenEDGE sports director after he got dumped for his doping whilst a rider on Armstrong's team.



wasn't quite, was in the press a few weeks back
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Re: Armstrong scape goat

Postby ratter » Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:46 pm

Mylotian wrote:Maybe I was being naive not knowing the extent of Lance's mafia.



many of us were, I was until I read the shortened version of the case against him, up to that point I was hoping it was just a witch hunt by somebody with some power out to get him
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Re: Armstrong scape goat

Postby queequeg » Sun Jun 30, 2013 1:23 pm

ratter wrote:
queequeg wrote:sort of related, but noticed last night that Matt White has been quietly reinstated as GreenEDGE sports director after he got dumped for his doping whilst a rider on Armstrong's team.



wasn't quite, was in the press a few weeks back


Yes, I just saw the release today after I saw his name pop up. I just thought that given the big deal they made sacking him that the reappointment would have seen a bit more attention from the media.
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Re: Armstrong scape goat

Postby macca33 » Sun Jun 30, 2013 1:38 pm

queequeg wrote:
ratter wrote:
queequeg wrote:sort of related, but noticed last night that Matt White has been quietly reinstated as GreenEDGE sports director after he got dumped for his doping whilst a rider on Armstrong's team.



wasn't quite, was in the press a few weeks back


Yes, I just saw the release today after I saw his name pop up. I just thought that given the big deal they made sacking him that the reappointment would have seen a bit more attention from the media.



To be honest, I think that they wanted it as low-key as possible, as it tends to taint the team - there are many who are very angry about his reinstatement, judging by the feedback on OGE's facebook page and elsewhere. Yes, he has admitted involvement, but it still does not exclude his history of cheating.....
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Re: Armstrong scape goat

Postby trailgumby » Sun Jun 30, 2013 1:56 pm

macca33 wrote:To be honest, I think that they wanted it as low-key as possible, as it tends to taint the team - there are many who are very angry about his reinstatement, judging by the feedback on OGE's facebook page and elsewhere. Yes, he has admitted involvement, but it still does not exclude his history of cheating.....

The problem is, getting someone of his seniority and experience in the Euro scene who hasn't doped is almost impossible.
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Re: Armstrong scape goat

Postby trailgumby » Sun Jun 30, 2013 1:59 pm

Mulger bill wrote:
Mylotian wrote:Maybe I was being naive not knowing the extent of Lance's mafia.


No mate, you were like thousands of us who were sick of the game then being played and thought something decent had rolled up.

I'm in that boat with you both.

Tyler Hamilton's book The Secret Race is an excellent read, and I'd commend it to you. It covers most of what's in the Reasoned Judgement, but is a lot more entertaining.
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Re: Armstrong scape goat

Postby RonK » Sun Jun 30, 2013 3:41 pm

macca33 wrote:I think that they wanted it as low-key as possible, as it tends to taint the team - there are many who are very angry about his reinstatement, judging by the feedback on OGE's facebook page and elsewhere. Yes, he has admitted involvement, but it still does not exclude his history of cheating.....

Gee - what rock have you been under? OGE made a public announcement and it was widely discussed in the cycling media, including on Cycling Central.
White has served his six month suspension, same as the other Armstrong team mates and is in the clear to once again participate.
Personally I have some misgivings about White's reappointment, but it's fairly clear that he played a big part in OGE's success last season, and there has been a corresponding lack of success during his absence.
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Re: Armstrong scape goat

Postby Uncle Just » Sun Jun 30, 2013 4:27 pm

Armstrong is the greatest doping cheat in history.

I think the East German sports machine of the 70s and 80s would far surpass Armstrong's puny cabal in their sophistication and widespread systematic doping culture.


I'm ambivalent about Armstrong. For the reason that he is til now "the scapegoat". There is far more to know and understand. I get the enormity of what he has admitted to, the bullying of team mates and other execrable behaviour. But I'm not holding my breath that the UCI will do anything that shows leadership on this poison in sport. Where is the T&RC or any other attempt to understand even the recent past? Instead we have denials, continuing omerta and occasionally pathetic dribs and drabs by former riders about what they may have taken "without" their knowledge. As for White, the 6 month thing was a sham just like the 6 months handed out to US team mates of LA. And the biggest elephant in the room in Aussie cycling are the riders from the last 20-25 years. Only one has had the grace and courage to fess up. BTW has Neil Stephens returned to Oz since LA/MW coughed?
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Re: Armstrong scape goat

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Sun Jun 30, 2013 5:40 pm

Mylotian wrote:I recently watched a documentary of the Tour on SBS and was surprised to learn that drugs have been part of the tour since the 50"s possibly earlier. I'm just appalled how LA has been singled out as the worst offender. The hypocrisy of the ruling body really gets my goat considering the systemic use of drugs in professional cycling since early times. How many other all time greats where doing drugs to aid their success. LA still has my vote, how do you feel :?:

I somehow missed this thread so sorry about the late response.

FIrstly, if you are only now enlightened as to drugs in cycling then I truly hope that you have not even minimally followed cycling because that overall picture is not at all new or even disputed. I gather may be the case from your an earlier response of yours.

But to the gist of your post. I am not at all sure how you arrived at your belief. What ruling body?

If you meant the union cycliste internationale (UCI) - well, they only acted against Armstrong when they legally pretty much had to. And they are continuing that practice with other riders, not because they are sacraficing Lance but because that is what they have been doing for the last 14 years when they last promised to clean up the sport. Nothing has changed.

If, on the other hand, you meant USADA then that is a gross distortion of their actons. USADA went after Armstrong and others and continues to do so in order to clean out as many as possible. That is a highly compelling reason to hound him - as it seems they are - in order to get him to open up with useful inteligence about others that are culpable - riders, medics, trainers, managers, etc. And that includes those at the top of the UCI that have protected riders against their own rules.
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Re: Armstrong scape goat

Postby familyguy » Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:51 pm

trailgumby wrote:Tyler Hamilton's book The Secret Race is an excellent read, and I'd commend it to you. It covers most of what's in the Reasoned Judgement, but is a lot more entertaining.


The book is a good read. Armstrong will never come as clean as Hamilton did in the book. It took a lot of his inner circle, and a whole stack of court cases to fish out Lance. Even now he is still trumpeting "I had to do it to win" without the admittance of guilt as others have done.

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Re: Armstrong scape goat

Postby The 2nd Womble » Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:13 pm

To the OP, LA is the floater that won't flush
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Re: Armstrong scape goat

Postby trailgumby » Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:17 pm

The 2nd Womble wrote:To the OP, LA is the floater that won't flush

Thanks. Now I have to go and take my asthma meds and clean my screen :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Armstrong scape goat

Postby AUbicycles » Sun Jun 30, 2013 11:06 pm

There was a news article just before the start of the Tour de France from Larmstrong claiming that it was impossible to win the TDF without doping.

Firstly, after the scandal, contracting Larmstrong for his views is a no-brainer, of course people are still interested and unfortunately in the well know arrogant fashion he delivered.

Secondly, most of the cycling fraternity is of the opinion that Armstrong only revealed a partial truth and still hid enough to save his hide from worse, and it is again the typical Armstrong response to discredit anything which doesn't suit his views - and is even vindictive.

As general cycling folk, we don't have a complete insight into what goes on behind closed doors and as with Lance, we try to put faith in goodness. This is something I do now though a cloud on uncertainty hangs over many past legends based on what we know now about the sport.

What we probably can say is that it is harder than ever for dopers with eyes on riders and the UCI.
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Re: Armstrong scape goat

Postby g-boaf » Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:54 am

The 2nd Womble wrote:To the OP, LA is the floater that won't flush


Hahaha! :lol:

LA is the lowest of the low. He's not a scapegoat - he deserves the punishment. I gave him the benefit of doubt, but when the evidence is that overwhelming - he cannot claim he is a victim. Others will be discovered too in due time.
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Re: Armstrong scape goat

Postby Paddles » Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:37 pm

I hope that M.White's new position with OGE wasn't bus driver ..................
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Re: Armstrong scape goat

Postby bollo » Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:40 pm

so for me only riding the past few years & never really getting much into racing & after reading though these & other comments the main thing that stands out is that all top level wining riders / teams do or have done doping, that being said hoe many of our top Aussie riders are doing it ? we have a few top level riders over in Europe
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