RIDERS CAUGHT UP IN ROAD WAR ZONE: QLD MP

[jcjordan]

Safety is paramount. The smooth and orderly operation of our roads is a secondary goal. Road rules are the instructions that aid in achieving this. But they are by no means comprehensive.

that has to be the most moronic statement I have seen is this whole discussion. Its akin to 'do what you like as long as you don't hurt anyone'.


The laws are there to provide a orderly balanced sharing of a space. Fine if you don't want to hold up your end of that that is a choice you can make, but dont complain when someone else doesnt and you are harmed or inconvenienced.

I remember a time a while back in Adelaide there was a guy down the road from me who use to fire his bow at a target in his back yard. No problem you would say as he is not hurting anyone, but then one day he stuffed up and cause one to miss the target and someone got hurt. He to could not understand why he was being punished for his actions.

[il padrone]

Safety is paramount. The smooth and orderly operation of our roads is a secondary goal. Road rules are the instructions that aid in achieving this. But they are by no means comprehensive.

that has to be the most moronic statement I have seen is this whole discussion. Its akin to 'do what you like as long as you don't hurt anyone'.

Surprisingly this is pretty much how things tend to operate on the roads in Italy. We were often quite amazed by the way drivers (and cyclists) just ignored rules as they needed to, and no-one got in a flap. We felt far safer cycling on Italian roads than we ever do in Australia.

[FuzzyDropbear]

I really don't care if someone wants to run a red light and kill themselves, couldn't give a stuff actually. However, I do care about the impact that would have if it were my missus that was driving the car, the impact on the driver in that instance is what I care about and if making a harsher fine stops a percentage of people from doing it, then that's good.

That is incredibly self centred and callous. I can understand some lack of sympathy towards people who through their own negligence end up dead. But suggesting that you are more concerned about the impact on those driving the car is downright atrocious.

Negative ghostrider. If somebody makes a concious choice to go straight through a red light and thereby ignoring the right of others to arrive safely, without incident at their destination and they happen to get killed doing so then that is their problem. If you choose to risk your life then why should someone else bare the consequences?

I would think that the self centered point of the argument would be with the side that breaks the law and expects everyone around them to give way. How is it self centered to be worried about the innocent party? Of course Im worried more about the innocent party who has done nothing wrong. We have ads for motorists to point out that cyclists are someones husband, wife, son, daughter etc. and yet some cyclists dont think about the impacts of their actions on drivers who are also someones husband, wife, son, daughter.

Of course I am talking about someone who is negligent. That was stated in my original post of someone who deliberately runs red lights without considering how their actions impact on other road users, just like we ask of other road users.

[briztoon]

Safety is paramount. The smooth and orderly operation of our roads is a secondary goal. Road rules are the instructions that aid in achieving this. But they are by no means comprehensive.

that has to be the most moronic statement I have seen is this whole discussion. Its akin to 'do what you like as long as you don't hurt anyone'.

Surprisingly this is pretty much how things tend to operate on the roads in Italy. We were often quite amazed by the way drivers (and cyclists) just ignored rules as they needed to, and no-one got in a flap. We felt far safer cycling on Italian roads than we ever do in Australia.

Pretty much the same in France as well. I lost count of how many times members of our tour group would exclaim, "did you just see that". Road rules appeared to be more safety suggestions rather than law. But the whole mindset to driving over there is so vastly different to here in Australia. Everyone looked out for each other, gave way at every opportunity, even in case where a cyclist deliberately went through a red and all the traffic with the green light stopped and let him through.

We were in a Taxi that had to over take a slow moving piece of farm machinery on a narrow, but busy road. Taxi pulled out wide, straddling the white line, and all the on coming traffic just moved over to their far right (remember they drive on the right side of the road) of their lane letting the taxi and the cars behind us through, and no one baked off on the speed they were travelling at.

So many times we would see vehicles and bicycles go through red lights if there was no traffic crossing with the green. And there were police everywhere, and they did nothing, so this was definitely the norm. It took us a couple of days to fall in to line, but everyone did. And as il padrone said, I felt safer than what I do here in Australia.


However, in Australia I follow the road rules to a T. Almost. When I commute to work at 5am in the morning there are two right hand turns with red lights that I won't trigger, and that I do go through, usually with not another vehicle in sight. Other than that, I obey all the road rules, am courteous to other road users and use common sense. Sometimes this means I don't do things I'm legally allowed to do. I won't ride two abreast with my ride partner if it will inconvenience other road users, I won't move to the front at some red lights, but rather maintain my position in line, other times I will move to the front. It depends on the intersection and if I know if there is room for a bike and car to take off safely or not. I will NOT however put my safety at risk to accommodate other rode users. If I have to claim the lane to avoid the dooring zone, or ride through a squeeze point, I will.

[jcjordan]

Surprisingly this is pretty much how things tend to operate on the roads in Italy. We were often quite amazed by the way drivers (and cyclists) just ignored rules as they needed to, and no-one got in a flap. We felt far safer cycling on Italian roads than we ever do in Australia.[/quote]

Pretty much the same in France as well. I lost count of how many times members of our tour group would exclaim, "did you just see that". Road rules appeared to be more safety suggestions rather than law. But the whole mindset to driving over there is so vastly different to here in Australia. Everyone looked out for each other, gave way at every opportunity, even in case where a cyclist deliberately went through a red and all the traffic with the green light stopped and let him through.

We were in a Taxi that had to over take a slow moving piece of farm machinery on a narrow, but busy road. Taxi pulled out wide, straddling the white line, and all the on coming traffic just moved over to their far right (remember they drive on the right side of the road) of their lane letting the taxi and the cars behind us through, and no one baked off on the speed they were travelling at.

So many times we would see vehicles and bicycles go through red lights if there was no traffic crossing with the green. And there were police everywhere, and they did nothing, so this was definitely the norm. It took us a couple of days to fall in to line, but everyone did. And as il padrone said, I felt safer than what I do here in Australia.


However, in Australia I follow the road rules to a T. Almost. When I commute to work at 5am in the morning there are two right hand turns with red lights that I won't trigger, and that I do go through, usually with not another vehicle in sight. Other than that, I obey all the road rules, am courteous to other road users and use common sense. Sometimes this means I don't do things I'm legally allowed to do. I won't ride two abreast with my ride partner if it will inconvenience other road users, I won't move to the front at some red lights, but rather maintain my position in line, other times I will move to the front. It depends on the intersection and if I know if there is room for a bike and car to take off safely or not. I will NOT however put my safety at risk to accommodate other rode users. If I have to claim the lane to avoid the dooring zone, or ride through a squeeze point, I will.[/quote]

I have never been to Europe so can comment on the behaviour, but I am of the understanding that the laws regarding cyclist and drivers are vastly different due to culture. I would suspect that in many cases those actions were not illegal and therefore expected of road uses.

[human909]

Safety is paramount. The smooth and orderly operation of our roads is a secondary goal. Road rules are the instructions that aid in achieving this. But they are by no means comprehensive.

that has to be the most moronic statement I have seen is this whole discussion. Its akin to 'do what you like as long as you don't hurt anyone'.

Moronic? No. Its the opposite. Mindless insistence on rules without considering the goal is moronic.

Fine if you don't want to hold up your end of that that is a choice you can make, but dont complain when someone else doesnt and you are harmed or inconvenienced.

The amount of times I've heard this "don't complain" nonsense is starting to get ridiculous. If somebody negligently harms me or others then I will complain. Please refer to the first AND second goal.

I remember a time a while back in Adelaide there was a guy down the road from me who use to fire his bow at a target in his back yard. No problem you would say as he is not hurting anyone

Sorry? Don't put words in my mouth. Firing a weapon in your backyard does not seem acting like "safety is paramount".

I have never been to Europe so can comment on the behaviour, but I am of the understanding that the laws regarding cyclist and drivers are vastly different due to culture. I would suspect that in many cases those actions were not illegal and therefore expected of road uses.

I'm sorry but you are incorrect. Road rules ARE being broken and nobody gets in a big tizz. People drive with more caution and respect to people rather than rules. Strict insistence and enforcement of rules has negative consequences of people driving to the rules rather than to the situation on the road. I saw it in the US regarding speed limits. I see it in Australia when people continue to drive at 100kph despite fog reducing visibility to 30m. Maybe some people should try opening their mind rather than arguing?

[elantra]

Surprisingly this is pretty much how things tend to operate on the roads in Italy. We were often quite amazed by the way drivers (and cyclists) just ignored rules as they needed to, and no-one got in a flap. We felt far safer cycling on Italian roads than we ever do in Australia.

Pretty much the same in France as well. I lost count of how many times members of our tour group would exclaim, "did you just see that". Road rules appeared to be more safety suggestions rather than law. But the whole mindset to driving over there is so vastly different to here in Australia. Everyone looked out for each other, gave way at every opportunity, even in case where a cyclist deliberately went through a red and all the traffic with the green light stopped and let him through.

We were in a Taxi that had to over take a slow moving piece of farm machinery on a narrow, but busy road. Taxi pulled out wide, straddling the white line, and all the on coming traffic just moved over to their far right (remember they drive on the right side of the road) of their lane letting the taxi and the cars behind us through, and no one baked off on the speed they were travelling at.

So many times we would see vehicles and bicycles go through red lights if there was no traffic crossing with the green. And there were police everywhere, and they did nothing, so this was definitely the norm. It took us a couple of days to fall in to line, but everyone did. And as il padrone said, I felt safer than what I do here in Australia.


However, in Australia I follow the road rules to a T. Almost. When I commute to work at 5am in the morning there are two right hand turns with red lights that I won't trigger, and that I do go through, usually with not another vehicle in sight. Other than that, I obey all the road rules, am courteous to other road users and use common sense. Sometimes this means I don't do things I'm legally allowed to do. I won't ride two abreast with my ride partner if it will inconvenience other road users, I won't move to the front at some red lights, but rather maintain my position in line, other times I will move to the front. It depends on the intersection and if I know if there is room for a bike and car to take off safely or not. I will NOT however put my safety at risk to accommodate other rode users. If I have to claim the lane to avoid the dooring zone, or ride through a squeeze point, I will.

[/quote]
Another example of this is red turning arrows in Australia. Road rules should be amended to allow cyclists to turn right when turn arrow is red under certain circumstances. It is completely daft to wait there exposed to danger in the middle of a busy road on a bike when it would be safe to make right turn.

[warthog1]

Surprisingly this is pretty much how things tend to operate on the roads in Italy. We were often quite amazed by the way drivers (and cyclists) just ignored rules as they needed to, and no-one got in a flap. We felt far safer cycling on Italian roads than we ever do in Australia.

Pretty much the same in France as well. I lost count of how many times members of our tour group would exclaim, "did you just see that". Road rules appeared to be more safety suggestions rather than law. But the whole mindset to driving over there is so vastly different to here in Australia. Everyone looked out for each other, gave way at every opportunity, even in case where a cyclist deliberately went through a red and all the traffic with the green light stopped and let him through.

We were in a Taxi that had to over take a slow moving piece of farm machinery on a narrow, but busy road. Taxi pulled out wide, straddling the white line, and all the on coming traffic just moved over to their far right (remember they drive on the right side of the road) of their lane letting the taxi and the cars behind us through, and no one baked off on the speed they were travelling at.

So many times we would see vehicles and bicycles go through red lights if there was no traffic crossing with the green. And there were police everywhere, and they did nothing, so this was definitely the norm. It took us a couple of days to fall in to line, but everyone did. And as il padrone said, I felt safer than what I do here in Australia.


However, in Australia I follow the road rules to a T. Almost. When I commute to work at 5am in the morning there are two right hand turns with red lights that I won't trigger, and that I do go through, usually with not another vehicle in sight. Other than that, I obey all the road rules, am courteous to other road users and use common sense. Sometimes this means I don't do things I'm legally allowed to do. I won't ride two abreast with my ride partner if it will inconvenience other road users, I won't move to the front at some red lights, but rather maintain my position in line, other times I will move to the front. It depends on the intersection and if I know if there is room for a bike and car to take off safely or not. I will NOT however put my safety at risk to accommodate other rode users. If I have to claim the lane to avoid the dooring zone, or ride through a squeeze point, I will.

So this is confirming my belief, that contrary to all the patriotic BS, we live in a fairly moronic country

[Xplora]

So this is confirming my belief, that contrary to all the patriotic BS, we live in a fairly moronic country

It would seem so; when anyone thinks the offence of going slower than you want to go is justification for threatening someone's life, that person is a moron. There are quite a few of them.

[Mulger bill]

Too many possible origins to cite a particular person for this...

Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools

I get the feeling that not one of the members here talking about going through reds do it head down, bum up, brain in neutral at 50+ km/h.

I rarely break road rules for two reasons:
A, The financial penalty if pinged is money better spent on shinies.
B, My own personal code, learnt at the knee of my father and late grandfather is to do as little as possible to make the other persons day harder than it has to be. Forcing another person to take avoiding action of any sort because I've done X IS making their day harder.
There is a self taught addition to that code but I'm not particularly proud of it.

I really wish people would realise that no matter what cyclists as a collective do or don't do, it won't make one iota of difference to the opinion of others.
If we scrupulously obey all the road rules they'll still hate us because we don't pay rego.
If we start paying rego, they'll still hate us because of the lycra.
And so on until the four horsemen ride into town.

Reasons are not required to sustain bigotry, just difference.

[Xplora]

re B; That's a quote to remember, champ.

The various European experiences seem to show that concern for your fellow man seems to trump obedience to laws every time. Accidents happen... it is inevitable. But asserting your alleged rights via force is rarely helpful when you don't own the higher moral ground.

[Mulger bill]

Yeah, this is why cafe staff love me. I take me dirties up to the counter and thank them for their time. I always thank and complement the Barista if the brew is good. If it isn't, I point that out too and ask for a replacement, most of them are happy to do so because part of their own code is "Never send a bad shot over the counter."

[human909]

I find the rules excellent guidance. 95% of the time I follow the rules. But there are numerous occasions where obeying rules is absurd or downright dangerous.

For all those who are obsessed with rules; I apologise the other day for not indicating when changing lanes, using a left tun only lane despite my intention to go straight ahead and using my horn inappropriately. Maybe I should have struck the car at 50kph content in the knowledge that I had not broken any road ruled.

(Sure the young lady broke a minor road rule by changing lanes and not giving way to me, but I'd prefer to break a few more to avoid an accident. )

[kb]

Yeah, this is why cafe staff love me. I take me dirties up to the counter and thank them for their time. I always thank and complement the Barista if the brew is good. If it isn't, I point that out too and ask for a replacement, most of them are happy to do so because part of their own code is "Never send a bad shot over the counter."

+1
Always find it a little sad when people in the service area are surprised by a thank you or a compliment.

Or that courteous (and legal) behavior on the roads is almost shocking sometimes...

[outnabike]

I really wish people would realise that no matter what cyclists as a collective do or don't do, it won't make one iota of difference to the opinion of others.
If we scrupulously obey all the road rules they'll still hate us because we don't pay rego.
If we start paying rego, they'll still hate us because of the lycra.
And so on until the four horsemen ride into town. Reasons are not required to sustain bigotry, just difference.

Hi Mulger bill
I reckon that about as good a sum up as you can make. If there is a sign of war fare it is surely all from the motorist side of things.
I am happily cycling along on Saturday morning in the middle of the right hand lane. There are only three cars on the road behind me, all in the right hand lane.
first one and then another both overtake me and blast me with a loud horn. I have to say, you have to be in that lane to turn right, We are all doing what we need to to get to point B.
It's just that the cyclist gets singled out for special treatment.
I will make a Tee Shirt with "Toot if you are happy" on it.

[il padrone]

I have never been to Europe so can comment on the behaviour, but I am of the understanding that the laws regarding cyclist and drivers are vastly different due to culture. I would suspect that in many cases those actions were not illegal and therefore expected of road uses.

Cyclists and motorists riding through stop signs without stopping (when there was no traffic nearby); cyclists rolling up then riding through traffic lights (again with no traffic nearby); motorists double parking on a one-lane, one-way road; other forms of 'creative parking'; cyclists riding the wrong way up one-way streets; drivers overtaking cyclists with a good 1.5m+, and across double lines.... with oncoming traffic. Legal ???? I really do not think so. It is simply that people tolerate creative rule variations and ensure that firstly they are driving safely.

[Marto]

re B; That's a quote to remember, champ.

The various European experiences seem to show that concern for your fellow man seems to trump obedience to laws every time. Accidents happen... it is inevitable. But asserting your alleged rights via force is rarely helpful when you don't own the higher moral ground.

True. In Europe, road users negotiate with each other. In Australia, road users battle with each other.

[London Boy]

Safety is paramount. The smooth and orderly operation of our roads is a secondary goal. Road rules are the instructions that aid in achieving this. But they are by no means comprehensive.

that has to be the most moronic statement I have seen is this whole discussion. Its akin to 'do what you like as long as you don't hurt anyone'.

Moronic? No. Its the opposite. Mindless insistence on rules without considering the goal is moronic.

I don't get this. Reading the quote on its own, I see a statement that says:
(1) Safety is paramount;
(2) Subject to that, the goal is orderly use of the roads;
(3) The Road Rules do not cover all situations.

Sorry, but all I can see is a statement of the bleeding obvious. And let's be honest, you can drive - or ride - within the rules as written and be driving - or riding - dangerously. Like the people driving down the motorway within the 110kmh speed limit, in a thunderstorm. For me, that is plainly unsafe but arguably within the rules.

[human909]

Unfortunately it seems that some people don't see it as a statement of the obvious. And to be honest that scares me. Obsessive rule followers scare me as much if not more than those who cannot follow rules. I feel more comfortable when people are guided by well grounded ethics, empathy and social conscience.

(Which like Mulger Bill expressed earlier, can often lead a personal choice of rarely breaking road rules.)

[Mulger bill]

No candidate for sainthood, remember the addition I'm not too proud of? Years doing frontline service at FSY station in the 80s taught me that.
(Mind you, very few of the druggies using the dykes as a shooting gallery left any dirty picks about when I was on deck. Guess I managed to install B into a few smacked out minds. )

I'm not much for whether what I do upsets peoples sense of moral outrage, I don't see that as conflicting with B so meh.
In fact, I'll point to one place I run (with appropriate care) a red nearly every time...

I'm on the share path north side of Smithfield usually headed NE, the green bike/man NEVER comes up unless called for and will wait til the next cycle regardless of when you hit the button. Ergo, after crossing the sliplane I continue on, obeying the road green. If the road lights aren't green for my move, I wait.

[Lukeyboy]

I ignore the bike lights at Chermside coming off Kittyhawke drive (and at times the lights on Kittyhawke drive especially at 3am when they change to red despite no one or no cars being around with the right hand side entrance to the shop parking closed with gates and the left side entrance isn't even built. Just like the Sandgate Station parking lot. That will change to red despite no one being around). Even pressing the button next to the bike lane doesn't activate the lights which just annoys me!

[il padrone]

Reminds me of getting caught by red lights here..... at 10.30pm..... when Bunnings are closed..... with the gates closed.




We actually waited, while nothing happened.

[twizzle]

Hmmm.... I was going to answer some specific posts, but in the end I couldn't be arsed. Most people view laws as a framework for behaviour that enables the smooth operation of society, ie. "predictable behavior". Others obviously consider them to be some rough guidelines that they have to put up with. I can't see any obvious gaps in the Australian Road Rules - if everyone obeyed them in both letter and spirit there would be few issues, but as soon as you start arguing that it's O.K. to pick and choose - then you are just part of the problem and have no moral high-ground and no credibility.

I don't go rubbing my law breaking in other peoples faces, because I don't want to encourage that behaviour. I try not to do it in front of witnesses. In the middle of the night, with no-one around to see it... who cares what you do. If there are no observers then it didn't happen. But don't try and justify to me that it's O.K. (as an example) to blow through a red light in traffic because "It's safer for you", because you are no better than the car drivers who don't indicate, do head checks, give way etc. etc. You are all just contributing to "friction".

[hannos]

Sorry, but all I can see is a statement of the bleeding obvious. And let's be honest, you can drive - or ride - within the rules as written and be driving - or riding - dangerously. Like the people driving down the motorway within the 110kmh speed limit, in a thunderstorm. For me, that is plainly unsafe but arguably within the rules.

Actually, in NSW that is not legal as that is not driving to the conditions, another condition road users must obey.

[Xplora]

I don't think twizzle you'll see many views at all unless you go out and poll the people. My guess is that many see the laws as something to protect them from the big bad world out there; not something that protects the rest of the world from them. That's a pretty huge difference, would you agree? In practice, the law does not prescribe certain things, and the general attitude of policing (which I admit is somewhat necessary, given resources are scarce) that "no contact, no crime" is appalling to apply to some road users. They are a risk, because they lack control of the vehicle. Our laws don't manage recklessness on the road well at all. There is a lot of grey for dangerous behaviour. If you simply drew a line around the car and said "any decision to reduce distance less than 1.5m around the car with any object is a crime" then you'll find a very different road culture.

Ultimately, twizzle, the problem is that our road rules don't work for the two groups; you can do laissez fair with sensible people, but you need an iron fist for the silly ones. It's not really hard to do both... but you must commit to it. The friction you see, well, that's the result of rule number one of the road. Look after yourself first. How you apply that rule, that's the whole deal isn't it?