First ride with clipless shoes

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Re: First ride with clipless shoes

Postby lobstermash » Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:25 am

Dimis wrote: C'mon, don't kid yourself... science (bad or otherwise) can be quoted to prove almost anything. Go on, ask me how I know :wink:


So... How do you know? Science doesn't ever 'prove' anything... It merely tests hypotheses
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by BNA » Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:34 am

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Re: First ride with clipless shoes

Postby human909 » Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:34 am

Dimis wrote:Yes, quite seriously...

Lets play a hypothetical game.......


Huh? I've never said that clipless pedals make no difference. In fact I believe they do help ones cycling. But we are talking very marginal improvements. As I said, talking about 5 minutes over 25km is unrealistic.

I am happy with accepting reality as being closer to the scientific tests linked than your hypothetical bikini babe example! :mrgreen:
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Re: First ride with clipless shoes

Postby Dimis » Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:04 am

lobstermash wrote:
Dimis wrote: C'mon, don't kid yourself... science (bad or otherwise) can be quoted to prove almost anything. Go on, ask me how I know :wink:


So... How do you know? Science doesn't ever 'prove' anything... It merely tests hypotheses


Correct... and its the conclusions of experiments that can be brought into contention. ie: we see the same test, yet interpret the results to suit our own purposes.

PMed for details about how I know ;)
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Re: First ride with clipless shoes

Postby clackers » Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:15 am

Timbo1 wrote: could not believe how much harder it was to ride a bike without clipless pedals.


From treating them initially as a novelty, I actually get irritated now when I find myself on a bike that doesn't have them.
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Re: First ride with clipless shoes

Postby AP81 » Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:30 pm

I have to agree with lobstermash.

Clipless for commuting with a lot of stop/starts almost negates the need for clipless. I clock almost identical times on my commute with or without clipless. If I had a unbroken commute (i.e. minimal traffic lights), I think there would be a difference.

I also find clipless teaches me "lazy" pedal habits, so I save my clipless for proper riding and commute exclusively on flats.
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Re: First ride with clipless shoes

Postby g-boaf » Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:41 pm

clackers wrote:
Timbo1 wrote: could not believe how much harder it was to ride a bike without clipless pedals.


From treating them initially as a novelty, I actually get irritated now when I find myself on a bike that doesn't have them.


I have to agree. Clip less is great, you just have this feeling of security in being locked to the pedals. When a magpie decides - I can just go up three gears and hammer away. :)
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Re: First ride with clipless shoes

Postby lobstermash » Tue Sep 03, 2013 3:15 pm

AP81 wrote:I have to agree with lobstermash.

Clipless for commuting with a lot of stop/starts almost negates the need for clipless. I clock almost identical times on my commute with or without clipless. If I had a unbroken commute (i.e. minimal traffic lights), I think there would be a difference.

I also find clipless teaches me "lazy" pedal habits, so I save my clipless for proper riding and commute exclusively on flats.


I should clarify that I still commute clipless, as I'd bought the things and find them more comfortable. The ACT has a number of poles for cyclists to grab onto to stay upright, saving me having to clip in and out all the time.
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Re: First ride with clipless shoes

Postby Mulger bill » Tue Sep 03, 2013 3:19 pm

Dimis wrote:You have clipless :D , I'm without clipless :x All else is equal...
Who do you think will get the cash?


Ummm, the bloke with the sharpest elbow or best bunch sprint headbutt? :twisted:
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Re: First ride with clipless shoes

Postby gorilla monsoon » Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:52 pm

I rode with toe clips for about six years but have gone clipless on both bikes over the last three-four months and I can honestly say I found the clipless conversion underwhelming.
Yes, I have a minor degree of security on the pedals that I might not have had with toe clips and yes, my foot is more likely to be positioned correctly but the benefit there is comfort, not speed. As for perceived performance improvements, my ride logs suggest that my times are about the same with either pedal type (and that is measured on my regular training ride over an identical course).
My usual morning training ride is pretty close to 25km and I really don't think I could knock five minutes off it by dint of different pedals. That's like saying an aero helmet or bumping tyre pressures up to 150psi would have a major effect.
Sadly, I have yet to see any bikini-clad wenches holding briefcases full of money where I ride :cry: but my two bobs' worth would argue that the cash-grabber would be the fittest rider, not necessatily the one with clipless pedals.
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Re: First ride with clipless shoes

Postby human909 » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:26 pm

My experience toe clip give you 75% of the benefit and clipless an extra 25%.

What is the benefit you might ask? I find the biggest benefit is it allows you to be a little more lazy about your pedalling, less mental coordination effort. Extremely high cadence is also a easier with clipless but who needs 200 rpm? Certainly not me!

Overall since getting clipless I have no desire to not ride clipless for long rides on the road. On the MTB I prefer flats. For commuting I like clips and street shoes, though clips can scuff you nice dress shoes.
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Re: First ride with clipless shoes

Postby Dimis » Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:01 pm

Ok I'll concede that clipless might not be worth 5mins in 25km if its the first 25km, perhaps not even the middle 25km... But what if it were the last 25km after 100+km and those were up hill?

Clipless for me thanks ;)
...and Ill see you guys in 5mins. Haha :p

Enjoy. :)
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Re: First ride with clipless shoes

Postby human909 » Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:32 pm

Dimis wrote:Ok I'll concede that clipless might not be worth 5mins in 25km if its the first 25km, perhaps not even the middle 25km... But what if it were the last 25km after 100+km and those were up hill?

Clipless for me thanks ;)
...and Ill see you guys in 5mins. Haha :p

Enjoy. :)

I don't know? What if? Having done enough MTBing on flats with long grinding ascents I am not clear on the difference you are implying here. In fact after 100+km and hitting a long hill I often would just settle back and pump the legs until the top.

Given the vast leeway regarding biased self assessment of performance I think it is safest to stick to the actual peer review data here. And that data suggests that there is no statistically significant performance gain from clipless pedals.

Image

And here is the efficiency data. It does show that clipless is approximately 2% more efficient. Certainly believable and certainly not insignificant for competition. Statistically you could claim that the difference is not significant.**

Net Efficiency
Elite Cyclist
26.0% ± 2.3% Pedal
26.5% ± 1.8% Clipless

Non-cyclist
24.7% ± 2.1% Pedal
25.0% ± 2.0% Clipless

**(Getting geeky here, but from a statistical viewpoint their conclusion that clipless and pedal are statistically insignificant is flawed. They should have been comparing the difference +SD on individuals not the difference +SD on the group. Maybe they did this, but it isn't evident in the paper.)
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Re: First ride with clipless shoes

Postby Dimis » Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:25 am

The implication being that while grinding up a hill, the dude with clipless can recruit different muscles ie: pull the pedal up, resting their tired and lactate filled quads to allow for a second and third wind.

For the record - your right it is subjective to some point. But so are the differences between riding a road bike and a mtb. On a mtb there is little benefit to leaning forwards & jumping out of the saddle to push and accelerate. Most your energy is transferred into bouncing the travel in the suspension (at least in my case without a locking mechanism.) if I want to go faster on a mtb I need to shift weight to the back wheel for traction. So you're correct technique is everything, but specific to its intended requirement also.

Thanks for the graphs. But it's still clipless for me. No contest :)
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Re: First ride with clipless shoes

Postby thomashouseman » Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:42 am

human909 wrote:
Image



Is this saying Elite Cyclists exert the same force on a pedal as non-cyclists? That's just wrong!

EDIT: Just saw the 60% quote, but even at 60% they should still be exerting much more force. That what those humongous quads are for!
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Re: First ride with clipless shoes

Postby human909 » Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:15 am

Dimis wrote:The implication being that while grinding up a hill, the dude with clipless can recruit different muscles ie: pull the pedal up, resting their tired and lactate filled quads to allow for a second and third wind.

That is an odd implication considering that "pedal pull up" has largely been debunked as an efficient way to ride.

Dimis wrote:For the record - your right it is subjective to some point. But so are the differences between riding a road bike and a mtb. On a mtb there is little benefit to leaning forwards & jumping out of the saddle to push and accelerate. Most your energy is transferred into bouncing the travel in the suspension (at least in my case without a locking mechanism.) if I want to go faster on a mtb I need to shift weight to the back wheel for traction. So you're correct technique is everything, but specific to its intended requirement also.

Huh? Absolutely you want to jump out of your saddle for acceleration on a MTB for the same reasons you want to do so on a road bike. Since when was I

Dimis wrote:Thanks for the graphs. But it's still clipless for me. No contest :)

I'm not trying to convince you otherwise. There is no reason to approach the discussion in a partisan way. I'm simply presenting facts.

thomashouseman wrote:Is this saying Elite Cyclists exert the same force on a pedal as non-cyclists? That's just wrong!

You do bring up an interesting point. It should be noted that the non cyclist were still fit athletic individuals. Either way the figures that you probably want are the power figures which were 274W for elite and 232W for the non cyclists.
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Re: First ride with clipless shoes

Postby lobstermash » Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:05 pm

Pedal pull up is not efficient energy expenditure wise, but because it's working different muscles and take some of the strain from your quads, even for a short period, it can be a very useful strategy.
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Re: First ride with clipless shoes

Postby jonbays » Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:58 pm

Probably been debunked now too but when I was taught to ride I had to ride fixed with toe clips and the thing I remember being encouraged to get right was not the pull up but the pull back at the bottom of each stroke. Sort of push down to the bottom and a shuffle backwards at the bottom of the stroke with no real pull up at all. At low cadence when truly bonked on steep hills you could stand up and throw the bike around and push down and pull up at the same time more to get relief on tired muscle groups than anything else though.

Therefore having learned this style riding with plain shoes and toe clips was awkward as your foot slips backwards a bit on the pedal sometimes. with cycling shoes when racing with plates and toe clips all was fine.

Look I still ride steel frames with downtube shifters so I would be a technophobe I guess but I do like the feel of Clipless better as I find there is no power lost in shoe movement on the pedal at all and it feels more connected just like a fixed versus freewheel connected feeling.
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Re: First ride with clipless shoes

Postby human909 » Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:17 pm

It is my (limitted) understanding that research has generally shown that max efficiency is really achieved by simply engaging the downwards force on the pedals.

What has been found though is that efficient riders generally have less downward force on the pedal during the upward stroke. So yes often you are pulling you food up on the upward stroke, but only in as much as you are lifting some of the weight of your leg.

This incidentally can be seen in the previous graph. When the net effective force is negative on the upward stroke that means the cyclists is still putting downward pressure on the upstroke. The elite cyclists have much less downward force during the upstroke!
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Re: First ride with clipless shoes

Postby Mulger bill » Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:20 pm

Clipless is fun.
Clip and strap is fun.
Flat is painful, my shins don't need more scars.
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Re: First ride with clipless shoes

Postby Timbo1 » Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:19 pm

Mulger bill wrote:Flat is painful, my shins don't need more scars.

+1 :)
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Re: First ride with clipless shoes

Postby human909 » Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:32 pm

Sorry I have no peer review research handy about the prevalence of shin scars from flat pedals. :wink: :lol:
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Re: First ride with clipless shoes

Postby lobstermash » Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:44 pm

I reckon we could put together a pretty large sample size though...
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Re: First ride with clipless shoes

Postby Summernight » Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:42 am

I have a few ankle/heel injuries from not getting the clipless cleat in and having the foot slip off the pedal with the force as I thought the pedal was clipped in. You'll have to add them to your sample. :lol:
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