"Sorry mate, didn't see you"

open topic, for anything cycling related.

Re: "Sorry mate, didn't see you"

Postby il padrone » Sat Sep 21, 2013 8:48 am

Hamster wrote:What that is telling me is that driver training is inadequate. Coupled with inadequate training there are some drivers who for either physical or psychological reasons simply shouldn't be driving. Having a driving license should be seen as a privilege and not as a right and one that can and will be taken away, possibly permanently.

Pretty correct here I reckon. Cycling around Italy and France we never saw any 'L-plate' drivers on the roads, only drivers with L-plates in 'auto-scuola' (driving school)cars. I believe that using a driving school with an instructor is the only way that people ae able to get in the practice hours to learn to drive.
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by BNA » Sat Sep 21, 2013 8:54 am

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Re: "Sorry mate, didn't see you"

Postby kunama » Sat Sep 21, 2013 8:54 am

Hamster wrote:
kunama wrote:
I have interviewed many people involved in traffic collisions, a common phrase in many was " I saw him but thought I had time to get through "



What that is telling me is that driver training is inadequate. Coupled with inadequate training there are some drivers who for either physical or psychological reasons simply shouldn't be driving. Having a driving license should be seen as a privilege and not as a right and one that can and will be taken away, possibly permanently.


Similarly, there are a myriad of cyclists out there who ought to have to pass a test before setting off on the roads, some of the things I have seen cyclists do border on the suicidal, in fact I see a greater % of cyclists running red lights than cars.
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Re: "Sorry mate, didn't see you"

Postby il padrone » Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:03 am

kunama wrote:Similarly, there are a myriad of cyclists out there who ought to have to pass a test before setting off on the roads, some of the things I have seen cyclists do border on the suicidal, in fact I see a greater % of cyclists running red lights than cars.

I see far more pedestrians busting red lights than cyclists (even when taken as a percentage) in the CBD. Does that mean we need to have pedestrian licences ???

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Re: "Sorry mate, didn't see you"

Postby kunama » Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:23 am

il padrone wrote:
kunama wrote:Similarly, there are a myriad of cyclists out there who ought to have to pass a test before setting off on the roads, some of the things I have seen cyclists do border on the suicidal, in fact I see a greater % of cyclists running red lights than cars.

I see far more pedestrians busting red lights than cyclists (even when taken as a percentage) in the CBD. Does that mean we need to have pedestrian licences ???

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I doubt that most pedestrian would pass their test! :)

I think a large part of the problem is that society have been taught over the past few decades bad manners, where once it was the social norm to give up your seat for an older person or open a door for another etc today these things are mostly history.
The same happens on our roads, I have often driven through the main street of Cooma where there are no pedestrian crossings, watched elderly pedestrians wait in the rain to cross while an endless queue of traffic flies past them.

It is true that cyclists are harder to see than cars and that driver's really should look much more carefully, these things are unlikely to change in our lifetime so all we can to is adopt "defensive riding tactics", if it means having to stop even if one has the right of way, so be it. There are a lot of people in cemeteries who "had the right of way". I hate to see that number increase.
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Re: "Sorry mate, didn't see you"

Postby Hamster » Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:35 am

kunama wrote:
Similarly, there are a myriad of cyclists out there who ought to have to pass a test before setting off on the roads, some of the things I have seen cyclists do border on the suicidal, in fact I see a greater % of cyclists running red lights than cars.


No argument from me on that, except to say that a "suicidal" cyclist rarely causes the death or serious injury to others whereas the same cannot be said for motor vehicles. Hence the need for differential treatment.
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Re: "Sorry mate, didn't see you"

Postby g-boaf » Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:32 am

kunama wrote:
Hamster wrote:
kunama wrote:
I have interviewed many people involved in traffic collisions, a common phrase in many was " I saw him but thought I had time to get through "



What that is telling me is that driver training is inadequate. Coupled with inadequate training there are some drivers who for either physical or psychological reasons simply shouldn't be driving. Having a driving license should be seen as a privilege and not as a right and one that can and will be taken away, possibly permanently.


Similarly, there are a myriad of cyclists out there who ought to have to pass a test before setting off on the roads, some of the things I have seen cyclists do border on the suicidal, in fact I see a greater % of cyclists running red lights than cars.


Which pedestrian or motoring advocacy group do you work for? Because I'd happily get you heaps of footage of "Sydney Buses" running red lights very deliberately along with cars. The other morning more cars and buses ran red lights on Elizabeth Street Sydney than cyclists. Just one morning, and the morning I just happened to be going along there. One bus even blocked one of the intersections in its rush to avoid getting stuck at the lights. I should have had a camera running.

Yes, pedestrians licenses would be great. As would 6km/h pedestrian speed limits to stop those marauding runner louts who think they own the footpaths. You can't even have a nice gentle walk without worrying about being knocked over by them. :lol: (twisting the usual anti-cyclist comments in a different way).
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Re: "Sorry mate, didn't see you"

Postby kunama » Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:11 pm

Sydney Buses are a law unto themselves, I think their morning briefings would be interesting to say the least. I didn't know there were such advocacy groups ............ Having seen far too many dead bodies in my life, I think has to come down to early education, we sadly lack proper training for drivers and riders but even more I find in Australia it is the attitude of the "combatants" out on the roads that is causing the problems. I have seen all parties doing their fair share of stupid things.

It is a fact that the average driver 'sees' very little of what is around them regardless of the fact that the law requires them to be 'aware'. It is also a fact that many cyclists don't make themselves easy to see on the road, either by their clothing or the position they select to ride in within a lane. I does not help much to bitch and moan about these things in cycling forums, perhaps a much better way would be to tactfully enter such discussions on motoring forums. Until driver education becomes a fact in Australia (I doubt it ever will) we as cyclists are much better off to ensure we increase the likelyhood of being 'seen'.
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Re: "Sorry mate, didn't see you"

Postby cowled » Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:42 pm

kunama wrote:Until driver education becomes a fact in Australia (I doubt it ever will) we as cyclists are much better off to ensure we increase the likelyhood of being 'seen'.


Ahh yes. But 'being seen' doesn’t mean you won't get hit. Take the Pollett case or even my own case as proof. Just because you are seen does not mean that the driver will give a damn about your safety. They'll still try to do something stupid dangerous when overtaking. In my own case I believe I was even in a primary position in the lane when I got hit.

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Re:

Postby human909 » Sat Sep 21, 2013 1:04 pm

cowled wrote:In my own case I believe I was even in a primary position in the lane when I got hit.


I personally wouldn't call that primary position. I'd be riding in the right wheel track myself.

But like you say. In your case and Pollette's case just because the car sees you doesn't mean they give a damn. I get very few close shaves riding in the right wheel track, but I have had two which were very much deliberate.
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Re:

Postby kunama » Sat Sep 21, 2013 1:23 pm

cowled wrote:Ahh yes. But 'being seen' doesn’t mean you won't get hit. Take the Pollett case or even my own case as proof. Just because you are seen does not mean that the driver will give a damn about your safety. They'll still try to do something stupid dangerous when overtaking. In my own case I believe I was even in a primary position in the lane when I got hit.


Too true, nothing will prevent some accidents, where motorists just don't give a damn. Prime example is the Monaro Highway between Canberra and the Snowys between June and October long weekends, it would have to be the greatest collection of clowns at the wheel on the eastern seaboard, heaven help the cyclist that wanders onto that stretch of highway in the winter.
I found that touring around Scandinavia, particularly Finland, motorists will give you a very wide berth and often are happy to sit behind you until it is safe to pass. It is the Australian aggression towards cyclists I find hard to comprehend, with Sunshine Coast being one of the worst places I have ridden. Conversely, the Snowy Mountains region has been the most cyclist friendly I have experienced, where motorists wave to you as they give you space.
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Re:

Postby warthog1 » Sat Sep 21, 2013 2:02 pm

kunama wrote:
cowled wrote:Ahh yes. But 'being seen' doesn’t mean you won't get hit. Take the Pollett case or even my own case as proof. Just because you are seen does not mean that the driver will give a damn about your safety. They'll still try to do something stupid dangerous when overtaking. In my own case I believe I was even in a primary position in the lane when I got hit.



Too true, nothing will prevent some accidents, where motorists just don't give a damn. Prime example is the Monaro Highway between Canberra and the Snowys between June and October long weekends, it would have to be the greatest collection of clowns at the wheel on the eastern seaboard, heaven help the cyclist that wanders onto that stretch of highway in the winter.
I found that touring around Scandinavia, particularly Finland, motorists will give you a very wide berth and often are happy to sit behind you until it is safe to pass. It is the Australian aggression towards cyclists I find hard to comprehend, with Sunshine Coast being one of the worst places I have ridden. Conversely, the Snowy Mountains region has been the most cyclist friendly I have experienced, where motorists wave to you as they give you space.


As you point out driver attitudes in Australia are the root of the problem on our roads. We are a mean spirited, selfish, moronic country in many respects. Our driving attitudes are a perfect example of this.

I take issue with the use of the term "accident", particularly in Cowled's case. Accident implies a collision was not preventable.
In Craig's case that driver meant to teach him a lesson by passing very close to him. This idiot behind the wheel did not allow for the passenger side mirror. That was his miscalculation that caused the collision. It was no accident he placed his car that close to start with.

Real and severe penalties for drivers that hit cyclists will be a good way to start forcibly changing moronic driver attitudes in this country. Providing excuses or mitigating reasons for collisions doesn't help IMO.
Last edited by warthog1 on Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Sorry mate, didn't see you"

Postby kunama » Sat Sep 21, 2013 2:44 pm

"real and severe penalties" therein lies the problem, the penalties are there, they just aren't being applied.
Without getting into the politics of it too much, the courts are under pressure from the Government not to fill our jails so the Magistrates and Judges don't issue to penalties they perhaps would like to.

So what is the answer, when I was young we used to drive in the forests for our speed thrills, then the forests we closed off due to litigation, racetracks are too expensive for the youth to go to so they tear around the streets like idiots spurred on by the likes of "Fast & Furious".

European driving courses teach their youth not only how to drive but also to value their licences and respect the right of other road users, maybe one day we will see 6 month driving courses here.

Safe riding,
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Re: "Sorry mate, didn't see you"

Postby Mulger bill » Sat Sep 21, 2013 4:09 pm

kunama wrote:...Similarly, there are a myriad of cyclists out there who ought to have to pass a test before setting off on the roads...

Many do. Mine's called a "drivers licence". :wink:
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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Re: "Sorry mate, didn't see you"

Postby outnabike » Sat Sep 21, 2013 4:22 pm

I saw the show Scarfy96 is writing about, and similarly to 909’s bear, they also had dancers who had to keep stepping into a designated moving light. Of course you concentrate on the steps of the dancers and don’t see a full life size penguin stroll across the stage behind the dancers.
There is certainly a large risk in not seeing the penguin.

It remains a question (to me), regarding accepting this as proof of not seeing a bike, although it sure has to be a part of human reaction to movement.
And there is also a lot to be said for 909’s analogy to rock climbing. I don’t know why he does this with a bike but so be it. :D
I reckon both aspects of sight come into play; that is, close attention and careful visual analysis (seeing), and that you also see what is important to YOU, at a given instance and as each new vista opens up to you.
Whilst rock climbing, no doubt a bloke’s senses of self preservation are a lot higher than the bloke just driving his car seeing a bike , not registering it as dangerous; bugger the bike, rider he will stop rather than get hit. Bang, SMIDSY.

If there is a group getting hit, the bear will still go down with the rest of the group.

So to me, and judging by the amount of tooting I get no matter which lane I am in, the average driver rather feels you will give way to them due to..... you disliking hospitals......he can always say SMIDSY........you shouldn’t be on the road......

So, as far as it is up to me, the only defence is to take up enough road to make them go round, make them stay behind me for the duration, don’t get upset with the tooting , count the number of toots in a given day and relax.
It's not easy but if you keep an eye on the car behind you, it will soon be apparent that they are going to shave you in anger. That anger can be successfully turned into an OMGod on their part if you give a nice long blast on the AirZound as they come level with the drivers window; especially if you are in a right turn lane.

Also maybe a t shirt with, “Let’s talk about it at the lights “would lead to a more conciliatory tone from the courageous tooters. This can always backfire though......It's always good to be prepared to quickly react to fellas that want to talk about it, if that is your inclination. :D
I usually just forget about it. Sorry if I have gone off topic.
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Re: "Sorry mate, didn't see you"

Postby Mulger bill » Sat Sep 21, 2013 4:41 pm

[tic]Going by the comments sections in most budgie cage liners whenever there's a cycling article, it seems that the one 100% certain way of always being seen is to continually break some law or other...[/tic]
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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Re: Re:

Postby Ross » Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:20 am

kunama wrote:
Too true, nothing will prevent some accidents, where motorists just don't give a damn. Prime example is the Monaro Highway between Canberra and the Snowys between June and October long weekends, it would have to be the greatest collection of clowns at the wheel on the eastern seaboard, heaven help the cyclist that wanders onto that stretch of highway in the winter.


I would say the Kings Highway going to the south coast in Summer would have equal or probably greater number of clowns driving. This scarily says a lot about the (lack of) standard ofCanberra drivers. :evil:

Wikipedia wrote: The highway also experiences a high number of car accidents, on occasions averaging around one every three days, costing the local community around the highway several million dollars a year.[5]


Wikipedia wrote:Casualty crash rates on the Kings Highway are 85% higher than the NSW average and road fatalities are 8% higher. A 2005 NRMA Motoring and Services road survey found:[9][dead link][5]

The rate of people hospitalised after crashes on the Kings Highway is well over the national average. 877 crashes were recorded on Kings Highway over a 10-year period, an average of about one crash every four days. Over this time there have been 24 fatal crashes, 355 crashes resulting in injury and 488 crashes resulting in property damage. The rate was worse than this in 2004, when there were 103 crashes resulting in six fatalities and 53 injuries.

The most common type of crash – 18% of all incidents – was when a vehicle leaves the road to the left on a right hand bend and crashes into a stationary object. Head-on collisions made up one in 10 of all crashes. Crashes occurred most frequently on Sundays (20%) and least frequently on Tuesdays (9%).
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Re: Re:

Postby warthog1 » Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:58 am

Ross wrote:
Wikipedia wrote:Casualty crash rates on the Kings Highway are 85% higher than the NSW average and road fatalities are 8% higher. A 2005 NRMA Motoring and Services road survey found:[9][dead link][5]

The rate of people hospitalised after crashes on the Kings Highway is well over the national average. 877 crashes were recorded on Kings Highway over a 10-year period, an average of about one crash every four days. Over this time there have been 24 fatal crashes, 355 crashes resulting in injury and 488 crashes resulting in property damage. The rate was worse than this in 2004, when there were 103 crashes resulting in six fatalities and 53 injuries.

The most common type of crash – 18% of all incidents – was when a vehicle leaves the road to the left on a right hand bend and crashes into a stationary object. Head-on collisions made up one in 10 of all crashes. Crashes occurred most frequently on Sundays (20%) and least frequently on Tuesdays (9%).


:shock: Good road to stay away from :x
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Re: "Sorry mate, didn't see you"

Postby macka » Sun Sep 22, 2013 5:52 pm

I tend to agree with comedian. My cruising speed is generally quite fast and sustained but I have at least one near miss incident [with cars] every day so I ride reactively and cautiously and have not been hit. However, the growing number of near miss incidents involving "slower" cyclists (who see me) seems to suggest they don’t appreciate the speed "we" can ride at - even on bike paths.

When I catch up to the cyclist (who nearly wiped me out) they apologise and seem genuinely remorseful but even riding with both front and rear lights on and wearing bright coloured jerseys doesn’t help…

Has anyone got a spare white cane I can use to tap very loudly in front me to avoid the next idiot from the asylum as I am running out of options?
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Re: "Sorry mate, didn't see you"

Postby ironhanglider » Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:13 pm

macka wrote:I tend to agree with comedian. My cruising speed is generally quite fast and sustained but I have at least one near miss incident [with cars] every day so I ride reactively and cautiously and have not been hit. However, the growing number of near miss incidents involving "slower" cyclists (who see me) seems to suggest they don’t appreciate the speed "we" can ride at - even on bike paths.

When I catch up to the cyclist (who nearly wiped me out) they apologise and seem genuinely remorseful but even riding with both front and rear lights on and wearing bright coloured jerseys doesn’t help…

Has anyone got a spare white cane I can use to tap very loudly in front me to avoid the next idiot from the asylum as I am running out of options?


My stoker does. Apparently they are very expensive for replacement parts such as the ball on the end. I doubt that he'd lend it to anyone though. :)

One of the good things about riding a tandem is that they are unusual enough to attract a degree of awareness from others that you don't get on a single.

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Re: "Sorry mate, didn't see you"

Postby Hamster » Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:42 pm

""He had seen the mum, but he hadn't looked down and seen the boys," she said."

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/young-boy-on-bike-killed-by-truck-20130922-2u7ju.html

A tragic result from driver inattention
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Re: "Sorry mate, didn't see you"

Postby citywomble » Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:46 pm

Macka said:
I tend to agree with comedian. My cruising speed is generally quite fast and sustained but I have at least one near miss incident [with cars] every day so I ride reactively and cautiously and have not been hit. However, the growing number of near miss incidents involving "slower" cyclists (who see me) seems to suggest they don’t appreciate the speed "we" can ride at - even on bike paths.

When I catch up to the cyclist (who nearly wiped me out) they apologise and seem genuinely remorseful but even riding with both front and rear lights on and wearing bright coloured jerseys doesn’t help…


Macka,

I'm not sure where the 'bike paths' you refer to are. They are very few and far between in Perth and almost every so called bike path is actually a shared path - including PSPs (principal shared paths).

These 'slower cyclists' are the cyclists that shared paths are intended for, who share with Pedestrians having right of way, so the near miss incidents involving slower cyclists would suggest that you are riding too fast and not reactively or cautiously.

They should not have to 'appreciate' the speed you can ride at, you need to appreciate the speed you can safely ride at.
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Re: "Sorry mate, didn't see you"

Postby macka » Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:01 pm

Citywombie,

All the 'slower' cyclists I refer to have been entering bike paths where I am riding. For instance they ride down a fly-over ramp from a train station (imagine the speed these nobs achieve when coming down these ramps) and they simply enter the path without caring for anyone else or they enter a path from a road, which has a clearly painted definitive white line indicating they must stop. They do not stop but simply see me and choose not to slow down or stop - my speed is reasonable and I am a courteous rider

When I approach other bike riders, walkers and even nobs I use the bell - I wish everyone did the same

I make the point that cyclists need to appreciate not all bikes ride around the leisurely 10 – 15 km mark in oblivion to other users and they need to be more responsible

I have been riding pro bikes for over 25 years and the problem is getting worse
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Re: "Sorry mate, didn't see you"

Postby twizzle » Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:13 pm

citywomble wrote:They should not have to 'appreciate' the speed you can ride at, you need to appreciate the speed you can safely ride at.


Guilty conscience? :P

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Re: "Sorry mate, didn't see you"

Postby casual_cyclist » Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:19 pm

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Re: "Sorry mate, didn't see you"

Postby casual_cyclist » Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:30 pm

Scarfy96 wrote:I have noticed a lot of the "moron motorists" posts are actually incidents of the driver legitimately not seeing the cyclist.

This happened yesterday arvo on the way home from work. I saw a guy reversing out of his driveway in some kind of people mover. He was reversing slowly and looked left and right at least twice each way and possibly more. My assessment of his driving was that he was definitely driving with due care. Anyway, a design flaw in the vehicle meant that just as I entered what would have been his field of vision, his whole face was blocked by the passenger headrest. I looked at him directly where his eyes should be and all I saw was headrest blocking his entire face. I bailed because there was no way for him to see me and as he reversed around and saw me, the look on his face was genuinely apologetic. No harm, no foul, there was nothing he could have done differently. If there hadn't been a safe place to bail to, I could have just as easily stopped for a few seconds. Either way, I would have avoided what could have been a pretty nasty incident.
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