POLL: Car ownership among cyclists

open topic, for anything cycling related.

Do you also have a car and a drivers licence?

Yes, both
119
88%
Only a car (no licence)
0
No votes
Only a licence (no car)
12
9%
Neither, that's why I ride
5
4%
 
Total votes : 136

Re: POLL: Car ownership among cyclists

Postby The_Eggman » Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:38 pm

briztoon wrote:I don't believe the argument, "but I own and pay rego on a car to" is valid when you're riding your bike to work. Whether you own and pay rego on one family car or a fleet of cars, you pay rego to be allowed to use those vehicles, not to use your bike.

If you want to argue, "but I contribute to road costs by paying registration on a/multiple motor vehicle/s", then you have to agree with the argument that registration fees help pay for the roads.

http://www.ptua.org.au/myths/petroltax.shtml

Otherwise I don't understand what this poll is for.


Indeed the argument that one already pays rego on another vehicle isn't watertight, but it's not worthless either. My guess is it ill cut off a large % of those who want rego implemented.I often hear the rego doesn't pay for roads argument, but seeing stats/number to back it is rarer (in fact, your link is the first data I've seen).
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by BNA » Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:08 pm

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Re: POLL: Car ownership among cyclists

Postby briztoon » Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:08 pm

The_Eggman wrote:
briztoon wrote:I don't believe the argument, "but I own and pay rego on a car to" is valid when you're riding your bike to work. Whether you own and pay rego on one family car or a fleet of cars, you pay rego to be allowed to use those vehicles, not to use your bike.

If you want to argue, "but I contribute to road costs by paying registration on a/multiple motor vehicle/s", then you have to agree with the argument that registration fees help pay for the roads.

http://www.ptua.org.au/myths/petroltax.shtml

Otherwise I don't understand what this poll is for.


Indeed the argument that one already pays rego on another vehicle isn't watertight, but it's not worthless either. My guess is it ill cut off a large % of those who want rego implemented.I often hear the rego doesn't pay for roads argument, but seeing stats/number to back it is rarer (in fact, your link is the first data I've seen).


Not usually. The most common response to "but I do own a car and pay rego" is, "well I own a motorbike and pay rego on it as well. I have to pay rego on my trailer, motorbike, car and boat, so saying you own and pay rego on a car as well doesn't hold any water. You want to use the road, pay rego to allow you on the road".

I'm not saying I agree with the above argument, I'm just saying don't support their argument by saying "but I have a car and pay rego on it as well".
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Re: POLL: Car ownership among cyclists

Postby The_Eggman » Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:06 pm

Perhaps. I see the logic as being you are either a contributor (one who pays reg) or non-contibutor (one who doesn't). If someone pulls the different vehicle card, you can still use the wear and tear rationale
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Re: POLL: Car ownership among cyclists

Postby ldrcycles » Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:09 pm

From the link above-

Annual cost of roads= $14.1 billion

Annual revenue from rego= $3.5 billion.

I've mentioned just those two figures to several people in the last couple of days who were bleating about bike rego and it completely floored them. End of discussion.
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Re: POLL: Car ownership among cyclists

Postby barefoot » Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:37 pm

ldrcycles wrote:Annual cost of roads= $14.1 billion


Without the decency to RTFA :oops: ...

Does that include all the big infrastructure PPP-style road building projects?
Does it include all the streets that are built and maintained by local councils?

I know the proposed Melbourne East-West tunnel is being spoken of with a budget of many billions... one such project somewhere in the country every few years wouldn't leave a whole lot else for other roads. And I also have some recollection that most roads spending is done by local councils, who don't get a cent from car registration.

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Re: POLL: Car ownership among cyclists

Postby Mulger bill » Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:41 pm

Does that 3odd billion "rego" revenue include the CTP component? If so, the numbers are even worse...
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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Re: POLL: Car ownership among cyclists

Postby ldrcycles » Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:10 pm

Mulger bill wrote:Does that 3odd billion "rego" revenue include the CTP component? If so, the numbers are even worse...


From my reading of the article, no, as there is a separate figure for "insurance premiums" which is described as "all insurance premiums, not just CTP".

barefoot wrote:
ldrcycles wrote:Annual cost of roads= $14.1 billion


Without the decency to RTFA :oops: ...

Does that include all the big infrastructure PPP-style road building projects?
Does it include all the streets that are built and maintained by local councils?

I know the proposed Melbourne East-West tunnel is being spoken of with a budget of many billions... one such project somewhere in the country every few years wouldn't leave a whole lot else for other roads. And I also have some recollection that most roads spending is done by local councils, who don't get a cent from car registration.


This from the article "construction and maintenance costs for toll roads by the private sector are not included". They list some of their sources as "Bureau of Infrastructure, Transport and Regional Economics, Transport Statistics, various years; Public road-related expenditure and revenue in Australia", and say

PTUA.org wrote: the Federal Government itself only funds a small number of roads: those classed as part of the AusLink National Network (or before 2004, as National Highways or Roads of National Importance). Most expenditure on roads is incurred by the states, and local government also accounts for a large chunk. Think of all the little streets in your local area: they're entirely Council funded (from rates and developer contributions, not motorist charges), with the odd State or Federal grant chipping in. But Federal operating grants to the states, or to local government, are often not classed as road expenditure despite the fact that a lot of the money gets spent on roads.


EDIT: this breaks it down into federal, state and local so it's easier to understand.


Road Funding Totals ($billion)
2008-09

Total:
14.936

Commonwealth 4.945
State govts 6.637
Local govts 3.357
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Re: POLL: Car ownership among cyclists

Postby singlespeedscott » Sun Sep 22, 2013 11:08 pm

We have 2 cars. Living in a semi rural area with a family of 4 certainly requires one. My wife has a little Toyota Yaris that does around 12000km a year. My 13 year old Toyota Avalon only does 6000km a year.
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Re: POLL: Car ownership among cyclists

Postby im_no_pro » Sun Sep 22, 2013 11:27 pm

singlespeedscott wrote: My 13 year old Toyota Avalon only does 6000km a year.



Slightly OT, but for a company who makes so many decent cars, the Avalon was an atrocity.
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Re: POLL: Car ownership among cyclists

Postby DavidS » Sun Sep 22, 2013 11:54 pm

ldrcycles wrote:From the link above-

Annual cost of roads= $14.1 billion

Annual revenue from rego= $3.5 billion.

I've mentioned just those two figures to several people in the last couple of days who were bleating about bike rego and it completely floored them. End of discussion.


That figure is revenue from rego, wonder what the cost of administering rego is as that would have to come off the top first.

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Re: POLL: Car ownership among cyclists

Postby singlespeedscott » Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:07 am

im_no_pro wrote:
singlespeedscott wrote: My 13 year old Toyota Avalon only does 6000km a year.



Slightly OT, but for a company who makes so many decent cars, the Avalon was an atrocity.


As much as everybody bags them out mine has been great. For such a large car, with a 6 cylinder motor, it uses bugger all fuel, 9 littes every 100km. It handles great on crap roads. Heaps of room inside. Is Toyota reliable.

My brother always bags me out for it being a boring Grandads car. I point out to him a car is for transport not entertainment. If I wanted serious fun I would by another moto. Bikes, both with and without motors, kill cars for serious fun. My family needs reliable transport not some family sedan with pseudo sporting pretentions like some fools Commodore.
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Re: POLL: Car ownership among cyclists

Postby Mulger bill » Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:18 am

DavidS wrote:
ldrcycles wrote:From the link above-

Annual cost of roads= $14.1 billion

Annual revenue from rego= $3.5 billion.

I've mentioned just those two figures to several people in the last couple of days who were bleating about bike rego and it completely floored them. End of discussion.


That figure is revenue from rego, wonder what the cost of administering rego is as that would have to come off the top first.

DS


Good point...
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Re: POLL: Car ownership among cyclists

Postby barefoot » Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:47 am

im_no_pro wrote:
singlespeedscott wrote: My 13 year old Toyota Avalon only does 6000km a year.



Slightly OT, but for a company who makes so many decent cars, the Avalon was a marketing failure


FTFY.

The Avalon was a 6-cylinder Camry with different panels and trim, and slightly mushier suspension.

And with Dame Edna in the back seat.

When it was launched, they did a terrible job of explaining why it existed and who should buy it. Then they did the Dame Edna ads and the trickle of buyers stopped altogether. We had one as a test car at work (we made some components for it (and the Camry, of course, since they were mechanically identical)). It was competent but uninspiring, in a Toyota-meets-the-US-auto-industry way.

They did the same thing when they launched the Aurion. But without softening the suspension, and without the Dame. It was far more successful.

Ahem. Back to the poll.
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Re: POLL: Car ownership among cyclists

Postby im_no_pro » Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:54 am

barefoot wrote:
im_no_pro wrote:
singlespeedscott wrote: My 13 year old Toyota Avalon only does 6000km a year.



Slightly OT, but for a company who makes so many decent cars, the Avalon was a marketing failure


FTFY.

The Avalon was a 6-cylinder Camry with different panels and trim, and slightly mushier suspension.

And with Dame Edna in the back seat.

When it was launched, they did a terrible job of explaining why it existed and who should buy it. Then they did the Dame Edna ads and the trickle of buyers stopped altogether. We had one as a test car at work (we made some components for it (and the Camry, of course, since they were mechanically identical)). It was competent but uninspiring, in a Toyota-meets-the-US-auto-industry way.

They did the same thing when they launched the Aurion. But without softening the suspension, and without the Dame. It was far more successful.

Ahem. Back to the poll.


I still maintain atrocity having spent a fair amount of time behind the wheel of them. But yes, they could have marketed it better.
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Re: POLL: Car ownership among cyclists

Postby Dimis » Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:10 am

We (wife and 2year old) have 3 cars.
2 x 4wd
1 x sports roadster
1 x motorbike &
4.5 x bicycles (the 0.5 is the toddlers pushed trike... Does that count?)

I'm a motoring enthusiast (not a commuter), as well as a cycling enthusiast.
That is I "enjoy" driving as much as I do cycling.
The car is not merely a means to an end, or simply a mode of transport for me, but a "toy" that I take pleasure using. Much the same as I do with my bike and cycling.

Hypothetical question with regard rego.
When I crash my car and get injured on the road, who foots the medical bill?
Now, if I'm on the road and crash my bicycle, who foots those medical bills?

Of the $700 odd per car I pay rego on... I'm thinking, should I get injured when driving then, Fair enough rego insurance should cover some. But if on a bike without rego... Then surely I shouldn't be entitled to anything... No?
I'm not really clear on this... How does it work?

As for rego for cyclists, using the cost of admin to negate its existence is bogus.
The counter argument would be to add the cost of admin to the total rego cost.

FWIW: I'm not an advocate of rego for cyclists.
It's akin to having a rego for pedestrians, or scooters, or skateboards...
The thought is absurd, and I frankly see little difference!
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Re: POLL: Car ownership among cyclists

Postby Carrots » Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:25 am

Interesting topic really isn't it.... I think a cheaper option would be Darwin's Theory of Evolution... Either that or surgical castration for some of the idiots on our roads both behind the wheel and behind the handlebars.

FWIW:
4 Cars.
4 Bikes.
1 Single Scull.
2 People.
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Re: POLL: Car ownership among cyclists

Postby rebilda » Mon Sep 23, 2013 11:05 am

My Toyota, a Hilux SR5 4x4 Ute, does minimum 30,000km a year, with my 150kg of tools in the back (no chance of commuting with all that gear)

I am also paying rego on another car registered to me, but driven by my son. My wife also has a car (VW Sirocco R).

I also have 6 bikes hanging up in the garage, which all see regular road/ cyclepath use. Registering all 6 of these might be a bit of a pain, and not just to the hip pocket!
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Re: POLL: Car ownership among cyclists

Postby gorilla monsoon » Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:04 pm

im_no_pro wrote:
singlespeedscott wrote: My 13 year old Toyota Avalon only does 6000km a year.



Slightly OT, but for a company who makes so many decent cars, the Avalon was an atrocity.


What was so bad about Avalon? Did you have a bad ownership experience?
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Re: POLL: Car ownership among cyclists

Postby im_no_pro » Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:26 pm

gorilla monsoon wrote:
im_no_pro wrote:
singlespeedscott wrote: My 13 year old Toyota Avalon only does 6000km a year.



Slightly OT, but for a company who makes so many decent cars, the Avalon was an atrocity.


What was so bad about Avalon? Did you have a bad ownership experience?


Driving, yes. Owning, no.
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Re: POLL: Car ownership among cyclists

Postby gorilla monsoon » Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:55 pm

rebilda wrote:My Toyota, a Hilux SR5 4x4 Ute, does minimum 30,000km a year, with my 150kg of tools in the back (no chance of commuting with all that gear)

I am also paying rego on another car registered to me, but driven by my son. My wife also has a car (VW Sirocco R).

I also have 6 bikes hanging up in the garage, which all see regular road/ cyclepath use. Registering all 6 of these might be a bit of a pain, and not just to the hip pocket!


You could ask for a fleet discount.
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Re: POLL: Car ownership among cyclists

Postby FuzzyDropbear » Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:05 pm

At the moment I have;
3 cars (1 registered, 2 unregistered)
3 bikes

I don't think rego'ing bikes would work, I've never really spent too much time thinking about it. However if it was to work, you would have to register the cyclist, rather than the bike, I have 3 bikes, but there's no point to registering every bike is there? Someone did mention, that why would the government put barriers up to something which promotes a heathier lifestyle, if they did make it harder for people to cycle then it would ultimately cost them more in infrastructure maintenance as well as the loss of associated health benefits from cycling.

Dimis wrote:
...
Of the $700 odd per car I pay rego on... I'm thinking, should I get injured when driving then, Fair enough rego insurance should cover some. But if on a bike without rego... Then surely I shouldn't be entitled to anything... No?
I'm not really clear on this... How does it work?
...


I have private health insurance which will cover me if I have a stack on the bike. I looked into bike insurance, but the policies I saw stated that they wouldn't cover the gap not paid by my health insurance and they would also require me to claim on my health insurance first and then they might look at it. So I decided against it (this was a couple of years ago, not sure if things have changed).
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Re: POLL: Car ownership among cyclists

Postby ldrcycles » Mon Sep 23, 2013 4:59 pm

barefoot wrote:
im_no_pro wrote:
singlespeedscott wrote: My 13 year old Toyota Avalon only does 6000km a year.



Slightly OT, but for a company who makes so many decent cars, the Avalon was a marketing failure


FTFY.


Beat me to it. I actually quite like the look of it, but then i'm the sort of weirdo who thinks the Hillman Hunter looked good.
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