Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

[robbie d]

I mentioned the possibility of a 'dark label' version/option for all the 'stealth' look matte carbon bikes out there.

[CAAK]

Registered interest via survey.
Consider me your Super Clydesdale test pilot.

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[AUbicycles]

Here is another question for Swiss Side. The test results and responses here show that you closely match the Hadrons up against some pretty big and well established competitor brands. These brands have built their brand legacies over a longer time frame and Swiss Side is in comparison a newcomer. Aerodynamics is one part of the equation. Can Swiss Side really match and better the entire wheel performance and why wouldn't the bigger established brands not already be a step ahead considering their market position?

[AUbicycles]

And another question.
Riders are all individuals ("Yes", I hear you chant, "We are all individuals"). So how does this reflect on wheels design? It is the same question for bike design and if you look at a bike or wheelset and a 60kg rider and a 120kg rider and different power input and riding conditions - are you designing to suit averages or the largest population percentile so that the wheelset will best suit a perfectly average cyclist?

If you were designing for one specific person, for arguments sake a lightweight cyclists, how much different would the wheelset be and how much performance would this cyclist lose on the non-custom wheelset?

[robbie d]

I think if it was me designing for a lighter cyclist, you could probably do more gram grabbing and not need to worry so much about making them bulletproof, as the baseline forces the wheel is subjected to, are less.

[warthog1]

I reckon they have to make the wheels to suit a 90-100kg ish rider. Make them too light and they wont be strong enough for the more powerful heavier guys and may develop a negative reputation. Price, strength and weight are a balancing act and you need to make the wheel applicable to a large number of riders to get the economy of scale working.



*IMO with no manufacturing or marketing experience whatsoever

[Swiss_Side_Wheels]

Here is another question for Swiss Side. The test results and responses here show that you closely match the Hadrons up against some pretty big and well established competitor brands. These brands have built their brand legacies over a longer time frame and Swiss Side is in comparison a newcomer. Aerodynamics is one part of the equation. Can Swiss Side really match and better the entire wheel performance and why wouldn't the bigger established brands not already be a step ahead considering their market position?

A very good question. In fact we see ourselves overall in a stronger market position than the big brands and this is the reason cyclists should choose Swiss Side! Let us explain:

The fact that we do not have the baggage of a long legacy means that we are free to do what we want so to speak. The entire brand concept, resulting in the incredibly low pricing we offer is one aspect of this. Our brand target is the 'same or improved quality and performance but for at least 40% less'. We achieve this through our ultra-streamlined online business platform which cuts out all the middleman levels to keep the cumulative cost in the supply chain to a minimum. Note also that our quality remains uncompromised. We use the same factories for our production as 'the big brands'.

From an engineering and design stand point, again as we don't have a long legacy we are completely free to follow any design paths we choose. As shown in our aerodynamic development, we take an objective engineering approach in all areas. We determine the relevant technologies available, the pros and cons of the various concepts on the market including our in-house ideas, and we design what we 'calculate' to be the best. Eg, Our choice of a hybrid carbon-alu construction for the Hadron shows this well. The market is driving full carbon clinchers right now but we calculated that with the hybrid construction, we could achieve a much more user friendly and broad appealing wheel design for the same weight, performance and lower cost to our customers.

Learning through experience is of course a valuable point. Our team however brings a very impressive calibre of engineering, design & production experience from absolute top-end engineering industries (including Formula 1). Our base level of engineering ability is therefore very high. The Hadron project in its entirety (not just from the aerodynamics side) showcases this know-how. We are also no longer total newbies, and have been designing, producing and selling our own wheel designs since over 3 years now. Our methods and processes from design to the supply chain are already well honed.

[warthog1]

What sort of rider weight limit are you expecting to have on the wheels?


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[mick243]

What sort of rider weight limit are you expecting to have on the wheels?


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Hopefully they'll have a limit well above the 100kg mark (I'd want 135) but maybe they could make a light version to cater for the true weight weenies, and a super version for us Clyde's... Yeah that would be cool - weight limits have made me reconsider purchases in the past.

[Carrots]

What sort of rider weight limit are you expecting to have on the wheels?


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Hopefully they'll have a limit well above the 100kg mark (I'd want 135) but maybe they could make a light version to cater for the true weight weenies, and a super version for us Clyde's... Yeah that would be cool - weight limits have made me reconsider purchases in the past.

One of the beauties of Mavic and Shimano - no limit. And no limit without a gazillion spokes
Just the usual 20-24.


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[Rockford]

Just read the latest update (very nicely done btw)

One bit caught my eye

A cyclist climbing a 10% gradient at 10km/h, with a total rider + bike weight of 80kg, requires a power output of approximately 235W. For every additional kilogram weight, the power output increases by approximately 3W.

The difference in terms of aerodynamic performance between a typical low profile wheel such as the Swiss Side Heidi and the highly aerodynamically developed Swiss Side Hadron is 10W of power*.

*(Based on aerodynamic drag measured at 45km/h).

Who goes 45km/h up a 10% gradient?

Will there be 'real world' speeds of say 25-35km/h for comparison? (or 15-20km/h which most are doing at 10%)

Are the benefits on a sliding scale or logarithmic?

[cerb]

One question from the latest update - the drag force for the Hadron went into negative drag (thrust) for a short time at high yaw angles (~11 to 13 degrees), with a relatively sharp change through a short range of angles. How would this affect real world ride feel?

Consider a bike traveling relatively slowly but going round a corner in relatively strong winds. Traversing the corner would take the wheel quickly through a range of yaw angles (relative to the wind) and potentially create an instability during cornering when the wheel suddenly switches from creating drag to creating thrust?

The rate of change of drag force through these angles could also make this feeling quite 'sharp' or 'surprising', where predictability in handling is often preferred?

Well done on some good results!

[bianchi928]

This has been a great thread and also nice to have feedback and responses direct from Swiss Side.

Bontrager don't have weight limits on their Aeolus wheelsets so it would be great if the Hadron didn't have a limit either which is of interest to me.

I'm excited to see this wheel set.

The days of having to have a product made in a secret basement in Italy with a drop of tear from Fausto Coppi are gone. Nor do you need to race in Belgium. Everyday consumers and riders are becoming more price and technology savvy and it appears the Hadron will meet both, so great stuff by Swiss Side.

[Lukeyboy]

One of the beauties of Mavic and Shimano - no limit. And no limit without a gazillion spokes

Too bad they both have their downsides in other aspects.

[Carrots]

One of the beauties of Mavic and Shimano - no limit. And no limit without a gazillion spokes

Too bad they both have their downsides in other aspects.

Party pooper

But very true, which is probably why they're half the cost (ish) of high end wheels.


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[Swiss_Side_Wheels]

And another question.
Riders are all individuals ("Yes", I hear you chant, "We are all individuals"). So how does this reflect on wheels design? It is the same question for bike design and if you look at a bike or wheelset and a 60kg rider and a 120kg rider and different power input and riding conditions - are you designing to suit averages or the largest population percentile so that the wheelset will best suit a perfectly average cyclist?

If you were designing for one specific person, for arguments sake a lightweight cyclists, how much different would the wheelset be and how much performance would this cyclist lose on the non-custom wheelset?

We are trying to cover the broadest weight range as possible with the Hadron without going overboard. Therefore the Hadron is spec'ed for riders up to 105kg. If we were to design specifically for light weight riders we could remove some more material from the rim and reduce the spoke count (say to 16-21). The weight saving for this would be in the order of 50g for the wheel set. The aero saving would however be extremely small. Therefore as the Hadron is specifically targeted at the aero wheel market, eg triathlon where races are predominantly flat, we were happy to accept the slight additional weight to make the wheel accessible to a larger market.

[Swiss_Side_Wheels]

Just read the latest update (very nicely done btw)

One bit caught my eye

A cyclist climbing a 10% gradient at 10km/h, with a total rider + bike weight of 80kg, requires a power output of approximately 235W. For every additional kilogram weight, the power output increases by approximately 3W.

The difference in terms of aerodynamic performance between a typical low profile wheel such as the Swiss Side Heidi and the highly aerodynamically developed Swiss Side Hadron is 10W of power*.

*(Based on aerodynamic drag measured at 45km/h).

Who goes 45km/h up a 10% gradient?

Will there be 'real world' speeds of say 25-35km/h for comparison? (or 15-20km/h which most are doing at 10%)

Are the benefits on a sliding scale or logarithmic?

Hi there. Thanks for your comment. The comparison made is not implying that you need to ride 45km/h up the gradient! The climbing speed for that comparison was 10km/h. As aero performance is hard to grasp in terms in concrete tangible terms, we simply calculated the power saving the aero wheel offers on the flat at 45km/h, then compared this to the equivalent weight penalty this power represents climbing a hill. That way you can hopefully get a better feel for the effective aero performance gain of the Hadron on the flat.

[Swiss_Side_Wheels]

One question from the latest update - the drag force for the Hadron went into negative drag (thrust) for a short time at high yaw angles (~11 to 13 degrees), with a relatively sharp change through a short range of angles. How would this affect real world ride feel?

Consider a bike traveling relatively slowly but going round a corner in relatively strong winds. Traversing the corner would take the wheel quickly through a range of yaw angles (relative to the wind) and potentially create an instability during cornering when the wheel suddenly switches from creating drag to creating thrust?

The rate of change of drag force through these angles could also make this feeling quite 'sharp' or 'surprising', where predictability in handling is often preferred?

Well done on some good results!

In the real world riding you actually don't feel the drag, but you do feel the side force effects. You can see from the side force charts that sideforce behaviour is quite linear and very predictable. After the stall point at 14 degrees, the side force gradient begins to reduce but not suddenly. Therefore the handling remains completely predictable without sharp or surprising force changes for the rider.

[Rockford]

Just so I'm not getting too excited, you initially had 40% lower than it's comparable competitor and now it looks to have moved to 50%, now this all comes down to your definition of the nearest competitor, Lightweight Fernwegs, Zipp 808 etc would have your wheels potentially ranging in price in the thousands ($1500 to $3500).

I'm not sure if I've missed any alluding to the price in this thread. I assume there is a basic price point you are building towards, I'd be willing to wait a few months but would start looking elsewhere if they are going to be way over my budget. My budget being around Shimano DA C50 (UK prices)

[Swiss_Side_Wheels]

Just so I'm not getting too excited, you initially had 40% lower than it's comparable competitor and now it looks to have moved to 50%, now this all comes down to your definition of the nearest competitor, Lightweight Fernwegs, Zipp 808 etc would have your wheels potentially ranging in price in the thousands ($1500 to $3500).

I'm not sure if I've missed any alluding to the price in this thread. I assume there is a basic price point you are building towards, I'd be willing to wait a few months but would start looking elsewhere if they are going to be way over my budget. My budget being around Shimano DA C50 (UK prices)

Hey there Rockford. Keep getting excited... our price point is real! We are not quite ready yet to offer the final price as we are still in the final phase before full production but we will indeed live up the '50% less' price tag! This price specifically compares to equivalent top level aero wheels on the market which have a similar level of development as the Hadron. But we can definitely confirm that we will land well within the budget you mention!

[warthog1]

I'm reading that as over $1500 then?


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[darkelf921]

I am also quite excited with the statements made behind these wheels. I'm really looking forward to the release date and to find out what price we will be looking at.

[george-bob]

Hey Swiss side,

Do you think you are targeting the same market segment as flo wheels? And, if so, why should people buy swiss side over flo?

[Rex]

I'm in the market for some deep section carbon clinchers so definitely interested in participating.
I'm an 82kg weekend warrior : 300-500km/s a week

[AUbicycles]

500km on a weekend is pretty good, you could probably elevate your status to a general or maybe even commander.