Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

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Re: Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

Postby AUbicycles » Wed May 07, 2014 9:18 pm

Very very fascinating if you have been following the thread.

In the wind tunnel testing of different tyres the aero results have been published. The clincher tyres tested were:
1. Continental GP4000S (reference tyre).
2. Continental Grand Prix-TT (GP-TT)
3. Continental Grand Prix-23mm (GP-23)
4. Continental Grand Prix-25mm (GP-25)
5. Continental GP4000S used (≈10’000km)

Is the TT the fastest... and what happens if you reverse the tyre...
Here are the details: http://www.swissside.com/1429
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by BNA » Thu May 08, 2014 11:06 am

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Re: Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

Postby Swiss_Side_Wheels » Thu May 08, 2014 11:06 am

cerb wrote:Out of interest - how did the 'Hadron' name come about? It's obviously to do with particle physics as the logo is also related to this... but how does that relate to the wheels?


The Hadron name was inspired by the Large Hadron Particle Collider at the CERN research centre on the Swiss French border. It’s regarded as one of man’s greatest ever engineering feats. Therefore we thought it was a fitting name for our Swiss Side Hadron Aero wheel line. As some of you have noticed, all our model names are drawn from Swiss inspiration as we are a Swiss company. St.Bernard- the famous rescue dogs bred on the St.Bernard Pass; Heidi- from cult iconic mountain girl; Franc- the Swiss currency; Gotthard- the famous tunnel (3rd longest in the world) & mountain pass in south of Switzerland; Matterhorn- the highest mountain in Switzerland and an icon worldwide.

Moving on, we’ve just published our latest wind tunnel report- Hadron Update 13, which includes more competitor comparisons and some really interesting tyre aerodynamics information for all. The Hadron further confirms it’s place at the top of the performance leaderboard against all the leading ‘big brand’ wheel sets we have tested in the wind tunnel so far!
Check it out here: http://www.swissside.com/1429

Also check out our aerodynamics development & wind tunnel testing video here: http://www.swissside.com/hadron/hadron-wind-tunnel-testing

Thanks for following!
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Re: Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

Postby darkelf921 » Thu May 08, 2014 12:33 pm

I took the plunge and am now waiting on delivery. I'm looking forward to trying them out.
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Re: Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

Postby cancan64 » Thu May 08, 2014 1:04 pm

darkelf921 wrote:I took the plunge and am now waiting on delivery. I'm looking forward to trying them out.


I am looking forward to you trying then as well before I need to take the plunge

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Re: Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

Postby cerb » Fri May 09, 2014 12:44 pm

I did my thesis on boundary layer tripping, but haven't done anything in the area since so am pretty rusty, but do find it interesting! I am interested in some of the results from a purely engineering-geek aspect...

The drag coefficient vs yaw angle graph for different tyres shows the GP23 dir2 and GP25 as having very different results over the ranges -15 to -20 deg and +15 to +20 deg, but it's not evident for any other setup.

I assume this is due to experimental error and not having time to repeat due to the $$$/second needed for wind tunnel testing? I expect the values over the range -15 to -20 would be mirrored at the opposing yaw angles, unless there was an inconsistency with seating/shape of the tyre?
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Re: Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

Postby scotto » Sat May 10, 2014 5:46 pm

I saw that too, as well as in other graphs, where the + and - yaw is not symmetrical. Whether the wheel is 10deg to left or right I would have assumed to be the same. How come it isn't ?
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Re: Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

Postby ironhanglider » Sat May 10, 2014 6:44 pm

scotto wrote:I saw that too, as well as in other graphs, where the + and - yaw is not symmetrical. Whether the wheel is 10deg to left or right I would have assumed to be the same. How come it isn't ?


Skewers?

Cheers,

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Re: Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

Postby scotto » Sat May 10, 2014 6:56 pm

d'oh....Never thought of that .
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Re: Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

Postby AUbicycles » Tue May 20, 2014 10:49 am

This is a video showing a bit more of the wind-tunnel testing. It isn't presenting new information not already shared in this thread or in their updates though provides a few more visuals.

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Re: Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

Postby Dave_C » Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:28 pm

OK - has anyone managed to buy and try a pair yet? What was teh final costs to get them here inc charges ?- was there any issues?

I thought theer were some pairs being offred for trial - is there any comments on them yet (and where)?

I am considering these
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Re: Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

Postby cerb » Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:00 pm

Dave - The trial sets were at a reduced price, not free. The cost for the trial sets was under AUD $1000, delivered. Wheel sets won't be hitting the ground in Australia until mid/late July, so you're unlikely to hear any Australian reviews of them until then!

I believe RRP will be AUD $1094, so with import taxes & duties they will be about AUD $1225 all up. Not sure if that includes shipping to AUS though?

Looking at their website, wheels are still available at pre-order price of AUD$960. I presume there is also shipping on top of that to Australia, as only EU shipping is listed as free, however, this price would still get them into AUS under the value where you need to pay import taxes etc.
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Re: Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

Postby AUbicycles » Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:44 pm

Please take a look back through this thread on the price - I put together a calculation regarding the price and import duty and tax.

We have a review due out really soon and I have a pre-production pair I was planning to riding for the first time tomorro but have been hit by the flu so will be a little longer.
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Re: Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

Postby Xplora » Mon Jun 23, 2014 1:22 am

Given they are checking the thread... might be a good idea to sell them one at a time to get under the GST threshold... might even pick up some sales, shallow front wheels are popular...
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Re: Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

Postby AUbicycles » Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:59 am

The idea of selling the wheels individually was also discussed in this thread... will have to recommend having a look. While this will certainly have an effect on the the price and sales - it is also worth noting that even after the shipping and import duty and tax, they are hitting a price point that is still significantly lower because of the 'direct to customer' approach.
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Re: Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

Postby CoffsGal » Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:33 am

Swiss_Side_Wheels wrote:THE OZZIE $1000 IMPORT THRESHOLD:
We hear you on the point of trying to get below the $1000 threshold for avoiding GST when importing into Australia.
We have already massively discounted the pricing for the Hadron wheel set and subsidised our margin to the absolute minimum level for the launch. Unfortunately it really isn’t possible for us to lower the pricing any further- we are at rock bottom. Sorry.
With regards to splitting the front and rear wheels for separate shipment, this would double the shipping cost as well as warehousing costs, which would force the cost price up across the board which we want to avoid.

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Re: Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

Postby Xplora » Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:31 pm

I think the key is, will the cost go up by 150 bucks if they split? (they end up being 1200 bucks or so after all the extra fees).

I totally dig their perspective, and where they are coming from. I'm trying to say that "I" will not be purchasing a pair of wheels if I'm donating 150 dollars of the purchase price to the Federal Parliament's purse, when I could simply go with a competitor or buy used.

If they are the most aero set, at a great price point, that's awesome; but supply and demand is key, and "I" think that it would create enough extra sales to cover the additional shipping and warehousing.
If I am wrong, then that's fine. I will simply be "one of those who won't pay to play" which is a shame. I use Aura 5 Bontrager wheels by choice, not compulsion. I want aero alu/carbon wheels, and I will pay for them... but 150 bucks in taxes for no reason apart from SwissSide's inflexible marketing strategy? Sorry. I'm not that enthusiastic about the aero improvement.

In the end, they have the product, they can choose to sell it how they like. I am enthusiastic about their product, but I need them to change their stance on marketing before I can select their product over a competitor product. I am not unique in my tastes, and I just want to give them the best chance of success in AU.
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Re: Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

Postby Dave_C » Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:42 pm

I have been following teh thread the whole way - and getting very tempted. I was just looking to anyone who had purchased and had a firm price on delivery.
I knewt that there was a plan to do a run with them overhere. at one point on the M7 Just had not seen anything
Just need to convince SWMBO that these will be good. I not after racing - just one that wil give some benefit when riding (mostly undulating) not for full hill climbs

Moreso to replace my Askiums for weekend rides

AUBicyles - how you get beter and loking forward to your reveiw
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Re: Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

Postby Rockford » Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:09 pm

They are not being shipped until the middle of July, so no-one will have a firm price on delivery just yet.

The review is very close to being posted and by all accounts is a positive one.
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Re: Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

Postby AUbicycles » Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:44 pm

Xplore, I believe I understand your arguments however believe your position has more to do with your views on 'visible taxes' rather than this product.. Lets choose any brand of wheels you buy locally and you are paying GST. The customs duty (if applicable) is invisible as you are only seeing the end price - and the GST goes to the government.

While Swiss Side have Australian founders and they have been looking after the Aussies very well, this is not their biggest market. If they could get their price down further for the Aussies and be viable, they would - I have asked them this directly. Swiss Side don't have a high marketing expenditure and a long supply and distribution chain so the suggestion that it is inflexible marketing is, in my view, off the mark.

That said, the brand do need to establish themself and for the 'first movers' with the Hadron it is a new step although they have established a reliable range in Alumnium wheelsets and 1 Carbon wheelset to provide the sense of security. Any brand, Swiss Side included, would love to sway your personal preference, but each person will have different motivators and for some, the visible tax is a hurdle.


On the review, John has been doing this and it is due any moment. He is technically excellent. hopefully coming off the flu and I will try and get in a ride as soon as I can. If you havn't ridden much Carbon before - I know that this brings in the the pure carbon audio! Wooosh!
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Re: Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

Postby ironhanglider » Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:33 pm

I think that Xplora is saying that he'd be willing to pay more for shipping if it will avoid the $150 worth of GST. (assuming that the difference is not $150 more). Depending on the cost of shipping this needn't make any difference to the company.

Cheers,

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Re: Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

Postby AUbicycles » Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:34 pm

Thanks for that - then I may have been reading too heavily. The GST and duty can't be avoided however with adjusting the shipping.

Customs Australia take the cost of the item and add the cost of shipping to calculate if it is over the $1000 import threshold. So the product value and shipping cost total needs to be under $1000
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Re: Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

Postby Xplora » Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:45 pm

I am under the presumption that theoretically the wheel costs 500 each, the box is 25 bucks and shipping is 25 bucks. Ship both, cost is 1050+150 taxes. Ship just one, it's 550 x2. Save a hundred bucks in taxes.

As I said; I believe that singles are workable. That doesn't mean I am right, or that SwissSide is interested in that approach. There ARE downsides. But flexibility to meet the unique demands of a market is how you build customer loyalty. I have all Bontrager bits on my Trek Madone. The 3rd one. Customer loyalty is valuable :idea: I am merely spitballing. I know enough about business and marketing to understand that you have to make choices - but I also know that customer loyalty is often far more valuable and keeping Aussie customers happy is a great way to grow your business.
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Re: Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

Postby AUbicycles » Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:21 am

It is worth noting that if Australian Customs get two deliveries for one recipient from the same sender, they are able to levy duty and GST for the total value of all shipments. There have been different experiences with this and I am not aware of the minimum duration required to avoid duty (i.e time between deliveries).

In this respect, for Aussie customers it is not as simple as providing a split delivery option, I understand that unpacking and repacking affects the costs of the logistics. You would hate to be hit by double shipping costs, logistics surcharge and the import duty and taxes.

I can however raise this next time I speak with one of the team - the Hadrons have been really well received and I can enquire about whether this means that order splitting could be an option.
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Re: Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

Postby AUbicycles » Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:54 pm

Although I am still recovering from flu (like half the population) I went for a short ride today on the Hadrons and here is my quick report. Main comparison are the SwissSide Francs which I really like - and to an extent the standard Giant PS-1. The conditions today were clear but with mild to gusty wind. I used Continental GP 4000s (I) at 25mm - my preferred tyre width and along with the 23mm, these also have have the positive aerodynamic performance. The wheels are 'pre-production' versions of the Hadrons and there is be a production / machining change to the braking surface in the production version.


So, this is my first Swiss Side Hadron ride experience

These are speed wheels, on a few known downhills I found myself easily reaching and achieving top speeds. They accelerate very well and feel light. This 'light' was a very conscious observation - weight now seemed to be in the bike and away from the wheels. The reduced drag in all wind directions transfered for a light wheel feel.

Gusty cross wind, like on any deep profile rim can push you around a little, but I felt the control in the wind was good and where you anticipate a gust or sudden wind then it there are no issues. Where the wind is strong and unpredictable you would probably opt for low profile rims instead.

Even with the light spokes I felt that the stiffness was good - not a super stiff rigid wheel (like a thick aluminium rim with high spoke count, and thick spokes) but I didn't get any brake pad rub (they were set quite close) and it felt good when I was out of the saddle and in the drops sprinting. In this respect they were much like the Francs which I find really comfortable and gives me more confidence cornering at higher speeds compared with extremely stiff wheels

Back to the areo profile - this is a wheel that wanted to go forward, stay upright and hold its line. Cornering is responsive and precise and on the straights you can easily take your hands of the bars and the front wheel wont wander around.

One minor issue is that the valve would vibrate when angled (eg. cornering and sprinting), it is quite a close fit. I had threaded valve extenders for these preproduction wheelset and know that Swiss Side are including valve extenders to make it easier for their customers. I am not using a valve nut which would solve it but theoretically cause other problems of tightening down into the carbon over time with the natural road vibration. Simple solutions include a bit of electrical tape on the outside of the valve and I have done this on other deep profile rims to solve this vibration. A tip when using a valve extender is also to put some PTFE tape (the kind you use for plumbing) around the small valve before screwing on the extender. The reason is that the road vibration tends to tighten the valve nut as well as valve extenders and using this tape helps to prevent the extender locking tight plus also provide an additional seal against lost air.

Although I am regularly riding lower profile rims, I was surprised about however much noticeable difference there was in the wheel feel and performance. If you are regularly riding deep V's such as Zipps then the noticeable differences would be smaller. In terms of performance, my perception is that these will save energy however that is something I would leave to other to test.

Overall, a very short ride, and no bunch riding but I enjoyed the Hadrons and looking at the whole package, this is a lot of wheel at a much lower price point (even including shipping and import duty / tax) than you would pay for a comparable big brand wheelset.


This is my unsorted feedback - John will have his review soon which will be published on BNA and independent from my experience.
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Re: Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

Postby Dave_C » Fri Jun 27, 2014 12:38 pm

thanks for that.
've almost convinced SWMBO for approval. The big was was "how much will these cost" which i showed your estimates but i said i can't get firm $
due to the duties

Next chouse is GP11 but with whar colour. ?
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