open topic, for anything cycling related.
Thank you for the details and graphics for CFD.
To press you further on the 'optimal rim profile', did the CFD involve a lot of trial and error or were you able to calculate potential best performing profiles before setting up for CFD and so were already close to the mark?
I have updated the O.P. and again here am providing a link to the registration page if you would like to be be eligible to be a VIP tester
VIP Wheelset Tester Signup
For peace-of-mind, it the sign-up not binding and a price will be first confirmed and candidates invited to be a VIP Tester so the purpose is a more formal collection of interested people and some basic details.
Road disc wheels, please. We don't need no silly braking track on the rim
This will happen at some stage I am certain - obviously not with the Hadrons which have what I feel is a reliable hybrid solution with advantage of the aluminium rim braking surface and profile (and strength) of carbon.
I am looking forward to disc brakes on road bikes but am preprogrammed that it would have to be hydraulic and would have to be reliable - so all of the teething problems which the major brands have been having are in the past.
Only new to cycling but would be interested in testing from a Newby pospective
Personally I invite innovation with wheels . There are a lot of companies that rebadge , recolour rims and say they are all new. Like helmets ... POC is new and I am very much looking forward to them hitting our shores.
Aero and stiff are my two prerequsites .... light and price secondly .
I'm interested to get involved as well. Currently running a set of Campag Zondas. They roll beautifully and are perfect for climbing but don't have much aero benefit. Looking at a few longer sportifs and rides this year and would love to test out a set of aero wheels. I'll be honest and say I reckon aero wheels look amazing as well.
With the in depth knowledge and experience in aerodynamics we have in our team, we had a very good idea of the general profile shape which would most likely bring the best results. So we defined our ‘best guess’ starting point and defined the range for optimisation of each parameter. From this point we didn’t simply follow a random trial and error process for the parameter investigation, however applied a mathematical processes for determining what geometries to run in CFD in order to understand the sensitivities of each parameter (profile width, depth, height of the wide point, etc). The approach used for defining the discrete parameters for investigation is called a ‘Latin Hypercube’ sampling method. The geometries for each parameter variation are then calculated in CFD and the results output to create ‘response surfaces’. These are basically multidimensional mathematical surfaces defining how the parameter variations affect the performance measures- in our case, drag and side-force.
Each ‘response surface’ is refined by running further CFD cases until it becomes stable and no longer changes significantly. At this point each response surface can be ‘interrogated’ to determine what parameter groupings result in the lowest drag and side-force performance, (in this case the minima of the response surfaces). We can literally mathematically evaluate hundreds of parameter combinations via the response surfaces without needing to calculate all of them in CFD. The advantage of this method is that we can achieve a much better understanding of the parameter sensitivities to performance with a lower number of runs. So we hone in on the final best performing geometries quicker and can then continue with a much refined CFD optimisation in a more focused parameter range.
With this combination of mathematical modelling combined with the absolute latest cutting edge CFD methods from Formula 1, we are able to define the final Hadron test profiles (for testing in the windtunnel), with around 40 actual wheel profile geometry runs in CFD.
Out of curiosity guys, wondering how much is computer based these days vs old fashion skill so to speak - how much of the work these days is computer modeling and testing versus physical product testing before getting down to those last real world tests etc?
Technology is just so darn amazing in how much can be done it seems!
Let alone using f1 tech!!
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Good stuff swissside! With the advent of velodrome aero testing for athletes do you think you could put your wheels through the same testing procedures to compare to the competition in near real world settings?
Also, please, please, please don't follow Flo's example of producing stock at a much lower rate than demand! It is really inconvenient to have to be up in the middle of the night to even attempt to order a set!
We'd like to say there are equal measures of computer / mathematical simulation as well as skill. Like any tool or instrument, the quality of results is only as good as your know-how and skill in how to best use it.
With the types of advanced methods we are using in our CFD approach, for a bike wheel development we can confidently get extremely close to the final real world solution in the 'virtual CFD world.' However a simulation is always just a simulation and real world testing is always necessary in order to confirm the results. Therefore we naturally took the best Hadron concepts to the wind tunnel. You'll be able to read about this in the coming weeks when we again publish a transparent report on our wind tunnel testing methods and results. We can tell you already however that the correlation to CFD was excellent which was a great confirmation to us of the methods and approach we have developed.
Thanks for the feedback. Good point! We completely agree that the only place where the results matter are in the real world. To do this we took the best Hadron concepts to the wind tunnel rather than to the velodrome. The best place for validation of a wheel design is in the windtunnel because it is a fully controlled environment where we can measure the forces very accurately and repeatably, but also importantly, across a large range of cross wind angles which is where a good efficient aerodynamic wheel proves it's worth. Just wait for our wind tunnel testing report. We can confidently say that the results will blow your mind! Thanks for following the project!
Unless there are improvements in the process, field testing in an indoor velodrome can only test at 0 degrees yaw?
Some interesting stuff!
CFD is a tricky area - as one of my uni lecturers used to say "It's very easy to make pretty pictures in CFD, but the real issue is setting up all of your parameters and inputs correctly.
So, I like your pictures, but I'm interested to see your test results when the project gets to that phase!
1. Your recent update briefly discussed tyres, but I couldn't determine if you are testing different tyres in the respect of 700x23c/700x24c/700x25c or just different brands (different shape/surface). Do you have a test plan for testing different tyres & widths, and will there be a recommendation on tyre width to use with the wheels based on these results?
2. Cycling has somewhat of a 'fashion' as part of the culture. Are there any concerns that designing a wheel with community input (which is likely to be based on current fashions and biases) will leave you behind the 8-ball (so-to-speak) by the time the wheel is developed and ready for sale?
Keep up the good work!
We will do our best to meet the demand. In order to do so we'll be setting up a pre-order registration (non-binding) to gauge the interest and plan for the demand. The pre-order registration will come online within the next couple of weeks once the project is a little further along.
Thanks for the response, I am LOVING the transparency from you guys
I think that "fashion" is somewhat of a real backseat issue ...form must follow function , Fashion is for Sunday riders with beer bellies stuffed into xxxxxxxxxl jersey's . However should you base products on "fashion" by the time of release you are on a timer to re invent as fashions change... that is a fairly limited and immature business venture.
Why do people buy the best ? Is it because brand XYZ have fluro paint jobs , or becuase thepower to weight ratio , performance , durability ? The last thing your thinking coming in for that 300m sprint is Wow hope someone see's my XYZ paint job on my rear derailiuer
Sith - I was thinking 'fashion' more in terms of design, rather than the paint jobs... Thinking 'outside the box' is typically where real innovation happens, but it's very easy to get stuck in a rut and go with the norm.
For instance; if I was personally looking to design an aero wheelset, I would probably start at something 50mm deep, with a relatively bulbous profile and dimpled surface. This is only based on my biases from what is currently considered the best solution (i.e. 'fashion'). Material changes and improved analysis techniques can improve this design incrementally, but it is thinking outside the box which creates new ideas and eventually new 'norms'.
As such, using community feedback in the design process, eventually creates a product which is desirable 'now'. However, product development typically takes years and the 'design fashion' can change during that period.
Good point cerb - innovating and being ahead of the market doesn't automatically convert to sales so involving the community does give the community what they want now. Innovating and creating top end often attracts attention and may trickle down into the gear with higher sales. Very few companies can consistently draw more sales from their top end products (these would often in the luxury segment).
That's true! It's also a very costly exercise... Hoping Swiss side can get the balancing point right of delivering a good product to market at the right time!
At least if you develop with community input, you're hopefully setting yourself up with some immediate customers!
Hey Cerb , my bad I misunderstood "fashion"
the "fashion " of the industry seems to be mismatched ...do you build a Zipp dimples with Renyolds rims DT SWISS hubs ? no otherwise you are behind the eight ball. Zipps crack so the dimples make little sense when you are throwing them in the bin !
to copy fashion you may as well just go out and buy Campagnolo Bora and have the best.
The industry staple seems to be 50 mm rims , my opinion , and yes it is just my opinion 60mm rear and 40mm fronts are the best combination the ability to put down power hard and fast coming out of a corner is where a 50mm front rim makes no sense only asthetics
What is required by wheel makers is a total groud up build....
Alluminum that is quality from raw form Japanese Alluminum is the finest quality controlled out there , machined to help disipate heat fast as it is impregnated into carbon.
Hubs , front hub very simple with quality steel bearings , rear hub over size ..[ Greg Ryan of TWE has this down pat] again with quality steel bearings .. decent spoke counts with quality spokes , not just whippet friendly , then aero comes into consideration.
Aero , leave it to experts that spend years getting degree's , that is what they do , and they are very good at what they do.
Building up a bullet proof platform allows word of mouth at cafe shops and forums to sell the items , people's budget and "need for the best" make sales.
But then the AFTER SALES SERVICE and dealing with rep's is the wild card many companies lose just because they are not looking after their clients who fork out hard earned coin.
To answer your questions cerb,
1. We focused mostly on 700x23c tyres as we saw these to have the most aerodynamic potential. In the windtunnel test we tested a range of tyres to check the sensitivity and of course to be able to recommend a best performing tyre brand / model for the wheel which we will do in due course.
2.This question regarding 'following fashions' is a very good one indeed. Our approach at Swiss Side for the Hadron wheel set was simple, to produce the best aerodynamic wheel set on the market. Therefore we were determined to let science drive the direction. However that said, it is important from a brand perspective that we produce something which people want to buy. So there is always a little bit of compromise. For example, in order to produce the absolute lightest weight and stiffest wheelset, we would have gone down the direction of a carbon tubular rim, however such a construction is not one which many people like to use. So in this case we clearly wanted to go down the clincher route, and our preference was the carbon-alu hybrid construction as this offers the best all round usability. Luckily from our original survey, the public input matched our direction so that was a win-win so to speak.
I have registered my interest as I am actually in the market for a pair of carbon/ alloy clinchers.
Agree with Cerb's comments about letting customer feedback drive product design....from what I am reading Swiss Side seem to have a pretty compelling proposition and are now looking for public commentary to lock in their product direction. Makes sense really as this fine tuning can really make or break a product. Even the most innovative solution may not sell if it has no public appeal...
My questions are the following:
- what do you consider as competitive alternatives in the market? Dura-ace carbon laminate wheels spring to mind as do the Mavix Exalith wheels....is that right? If so, I think you have targetted the right sweet spot in the market...a lot of people are interested in carbon wheels but not willing to sacrifice braking power with carbon tracks.
- what is your target segment...or are you targetting a broad category of users ?
- what design requirements have you prioritised in your product design?
looking forward to the developments here.
Registered my interest. Seems like a very interesting project.
I have a couple of questions for Swiss Side:
1. What is the projected weight of the wheelset?
2. Why go for a 23mm brake track and toroidial shape when most manufacturers are going wider at the brake track with less bulge? I was under the impression that the narrower brake track adversely affected aero which is why Zipp went away from that shape with the new Firecrest.
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