Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

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Re: Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

Postby Swiss_Side_Wheels » Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:04 am

marckietan wrote:I have registered my interest as I am actually in the market for a pair of carbon/ alloy clinchers.

Agree with Cerb's comments about letting customer feedback drive product design....from what I am reading Swiss Side seem to have a pretty compelling proposition and are now looking for public commentary to lock in their product direction. Makes sense really as this fine tuning can really make or break a product. Even the most innovative solution may not sell if it has no public appeal...

My questions are the following:

- what do you consider as competitive alternatives in the market? Dura-ace carbon laminate wheels spring to mind as do the Mavix Exalith wheels....is that right? If so, I think you have targetted the right sweet spot in the market...a lot of people are interested in carbon wheels but not willing to sacrifice braking power with carbon tracks.

- what is your target segment...or are you targetting a broad category of users ?

- what design requirements have you prioritised in your product design?

looking forward to the developments here.

m


Thanks for the questions marckietan. Answers are below.

1. We are targeting all of the absolute top level wheels including those you have mentioned. Our target is to beat them aerodynamically and match them as close as possible with weight, but at a hugely reduced price (around 40% less). As cyclists ourselves, we were sick of the overpricing of products and started Swiss Side because we knew we could do a better job for a lot less! We also want them as usable as possible -hence choice of carbon-alu hybrid with alu braking surface so people can swap their wheel sets around without the hassle of changing to carbon brake pads. We also limited the braking track width to 23mm so that the wheels fit all bikes without issues.

2. We are targeting as broad a market as possible. Clearly this is a more 'aero' driven wheel however we were confident that we could match the aerodynamic performance of 80mm deep profiles but with a 60mm deep profile. And we have! This was also our intention because we feel that 60mm profile rims are also a lot more appealing than larger ones for everyday use.

3. In order of priority,
- a) Aerodynamic efficiency,
- b) Broad usability (hence choice of carbon-alu hybrid with alu braking surface),
- c) Weight
- d) Looks
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by BNA » Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:07 am

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Re: Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

Postby Swiss_Side_Wheels » Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:07 am

fletch62 wrote:I have a couple of questions for Swiss Side:
1. What is the projected weight of the wheelset?
2. Why go for a 23mm brake track and toroidial shape when most manufacturers are going wider at the brake track with less bulge? I was under the impression that the narrower brake track adversely affected aero which is why Zipp went away from that shape with the new Firecrest.


Hi fletch62, Thanks for the questions.
1. Our target is to keep the wheel set weight under 1699g
2. Braking tracks wider than 23mm lead to issues with clearances on some bike frame makes. Therefore we wanted to avoid such issues to keep the appeal of the design to as broad a market as possible. Analysing the flow field mechanisms at work as a part of the initial CFD investigations, we were confident that we could achieve our aerodynamics targets with the 23mm brake track width. Ultimately we proved this. The Hadron outperforms the Zipp 808 Firecrest aerodynamically in all aspects! We confirmed this result as part of our wind tunnel testing. Stay tuned for that report!
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Re: Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

Postby Carrots » Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:23 pm

Probably the most important question (that may have been answered in an update or on here - but I'm blind or maybe ignorant)... What's the best estimate on a market delivery date?
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Re: Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

Postby Swiss_Side_Wheels » Fri Feb 07, 2014 8:47 pm

Carrots wrote:Probably the most important question (that may have been answered in an update or on here - but I'm blind or maybe ignorant)... What's the best estimate on a market delivery date?

We are working towards a mid year release. Once we have more firm dates we'll be sure to provide an update.
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Re: Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

Postby Lukeyboy » Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:07 pm

Sorry if I have missed these answers already but what are or would be the warranty/policies on the wheels regarding damage and replacing. Not so much warranty per say but the replacement options given that these wheels would be somewhat targeted for racers who are more at risk of crashing and damaging the wheels. Say if one gets damaged during a crit/road race can that owner send the damaged wheel back and then get a discount on their replacement purchase within a set time frame form the date of purchase? Giro, Reynolds, Lightweight (Not 100% sure) and a few other manufactures do this or have the option to do it.
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Re: Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

Postby Swiss_Side_Wheels » Sat Feb 08, 2014 8:41 pm

Lukeyboy wrote:Sorry if I have missed these answers already but what are or would be the warranty/policies on the wheels regarding damage and replacing. Not so much warranty per say but the replacement options given that these wheels would be somewhat targeted for racers who are more at risk of crashing and damaging the wheels. Say if one gets damaged during a crit/road race can that owner send the damaged wheel back and then get a discount on their replacement purchase within a set time frame form the date of purchase? Giro, Reynolds, Lightweight (Not 100% sure) and a few other manufactures do this or have the option to do it.


Regarding replacement discounts for when products get damaged, yes we do support our customers in such cases and offer discounted crash replacement pricing. However each case is treated individually and the appropriate action is taken. It is important to note however that the level of discounting we can offer is limited due to our 'middleman-free', customer direct business model. Let us explain...

Normal brand distribution pricing structures incorporate margins for each of the middleman tiers- eg. distributor, sales reps, & retailer. As the customer, the price you pay includes the added cuts for each of these middlemen. Typical damage replacement schemes are most commonly handled directly by the brand. The middleman tiers are avoided and the brand can therefore offer what seems to be a significant discount relative to the normal retail price. However in fact they typically still make their normal 'wholesale' margin on the discounted sale to you.

The Swiss Side business model is customer direct. That means we have no middlemen. Like this we offer massively reduced pricing compared with the equivalent competitor brand product. All customers benefit directly from reduced pricing already when they purchase a product. However that means that there are no middleman tiers to be shortcut for an accident replacement scheme as such, which makes the level of discounting we can offer more limited.
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Re: Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

Postby thomashouseman » Sat Feb 08, 2014 9:37 pm

Mulger bill wrote:
nezumi wrote:I'd love to be involved.... if I had a rim-braking road bike.

Talk to me once the disc brake version comes out :D

+1


+2 !!
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Re: Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

Postby Swiss_Side_Wheels » Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:58 am

We have noticed the comments wishing for a brake disc wheel, and we thought we should shed light onto the reasons why we chose a traditional rim braking configuration for the Hadron. Our goal for the Hadron was clear... To produce the world's most aerodynamic efficient wheel set. At the same time we were well aware of the introduction of disc brakes to the road bike market. So as part of the Hadron aerodynamic development investigations, both in CFD as well as in the windtunnel, we evaluated brake disc wheel designs, even if we were sure they would be inherantly draggy. The aerodynamic drag penalty of the larger hub required for the disc brake, together with a 130mm brake disc was confirmed to be in the order of 10%-15% across the yaw range which is quite significant. Therefore for this Hadron wheel, a disc brake configuration was ruled out. However we are currently working on a Gotthard Disc wheel model right now and we will definitely look at producing a Hadron Disc in the future. In the coming weeks we will be publishing all of the windtunnel test results in our windtunnel test report, including that of the Gotthard Disc prototype back to back against the standard Gotthard wheel. Stay tuned!
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Re: Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

Postby robbie d » Tue Feb 11, 2014 1:38 pm

With regard to the spoke shape side of the aerodynamics, would you go as far as creating your own profile, or just select from a range of existing profiles that compliment the rim aerodynamics.
Second part on spokes, what spoke materials are you considering and what is your reasoning behind that.
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Re: Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

Postby AUbicycles » Tue Feb 11, 2014 1:42 pm

I would like to ask about the alumnium freehub and reasons why this is preferred over a steel freehub. Are there other considerations beyond weight and what would the weight penalty be?
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Re: Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

Postby Carrots » Tue Feb 11, 2014 1:46 pm

AUbicycles wrote:I would like to ask about the alumnium freehub and reasons why this is preferred over a steel freehub. Are there other considerations beyond weight and what would the weight penalty be?


On the aluminum subject. Is there another compound, or even carbon quality that can be used as a braking surface with the durability/longevity of alu but without the additional weight?


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Re: Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

Postby AUbicycles » Tue Feb 11, 2014 2:53 pm

That would probably be unobtanium however Oakley have the rights on that.
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Re: Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

Postby Carrots » Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:04 pm

AUbicycles wrote:That would probably be unobtanium however Oakley have the rights on that.


So it'd be overpriced plastic then? Haha!

Wonder thought if it's possible to layer the carbon along the brake surface to give greater wear.


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Re: Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

Postby Dimma » Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:31 pm

I've just registered interest in VIP test.
Will endeavour to add these to a long list of wheels I've managed to break lol
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Re: Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

Postby AUbicycles » Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:15 pm

There are hybrids with carbon wrapped over aluminium which aim to aim heat dissipation and eliminate the delamination from high braking temperature however can't provide practical feedback on these.

How are you breaking your wheels Dimma?
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Re: Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

Postby AUbicycles » Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:06 am

Swiss Side have this up on social media (facebook / twitter)

1st set of Hadron windtunnel test wheels Rim covers r made w/3D printed laser sintered plastic.
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Re: Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

Postby Dimma » Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:28 am

AUbicycles wrote:There are hybrids with carbon wrapped over aluminium which aim to aim heat dissipation and eliminate the delamination from high braking temperature however can't provide practical feedback on these.

How are you breaking your wheels Dimma?


No one knows it's a mystery to every bike shop/wheel manufacturer.
Last issue was I bent 7 drive side spokes on rear Zipp 303 at the top of Binna Burra Cat 2 climb 115 kms from home.
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Re: Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

Postby Swiss_Side_Wheels » Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:36 pm

robbie d wrote:With regard to the spoke shape side of the aerodynamics, would you go as far as creating your own profile, or just select from a range of existing profiles that compliment the rim aerodynamics.
Second part on spokes, what spoke materials are you considering and what is your reasoning behind that.


Over the last few years at Swiss Side we have taken a detailed look into spokes, shapes and materials. From an aerodynamics point of view, a good small section bladed spoke has a minimal impact on the aerodynamics, orders of magnitude less than that of the rim and hub. The best 'aero spoke' on the market is the Sapim CX-Ray because it uses a minimal section elliptical profile. Many of the 'big brands' are using this spoke even if they do not publicise it.

As far as materials go, we choose to stick to high grade stainless steel which is what Sapim makes all their spokes from. The durability of the wheel is clearly a major factor and we do not want to compromise on this. The Sapim CX-Ray spoke actually has the highest fatigue rating of any spoke on the market. See our comments from our FEA report: http://www.swissside.com/653 . An alternative with which have experimented in the past is aluminium spoke construction, but due to the material properties and in particular the fatigue characteristics of aluminium alloys, the section has to be increased significantly to the point where no weight saving is possible and the aerodynamics are compromised. Titanium spokes could potentially offer weight savings however compared to the CX-Ray, the saving would be tiny and would compomise the durability of the wheel, something we are not prepared to do for a few grams of weight.
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Re: Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

Postby Swiss_Side_Wheels » Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:38 pm

AUbicycles wrote:I would like to ask about the alumnium freehub and reasons why this is preferred over a steel freehub. Are there other considerations beyond weight and what would the weight penalty be?


Our choice to use aluminium cassette bodies is weight and cost driven. We can save up to 30g depending on the design which is quite a lot for a hub assembly. Also as the cassette body requires quite some machining, it is more cost efficient to machine aluminium than steel. In this way our customers end up with a lighter and cheaper solution.

The only down side with aluminium cassette bodies is the potential for notching where the individual middle gears can push into the softer aluminium under high load. It is important to note that this notching is not uncommon in aluminum cassette bodies and poses absolutely no problem except for the cassette on occasion being a bit sticky to disassemble from the cassette body. The edges of the notches can be filed down if desired without any adverse effect on the function of the cassette body. However by cleaning the cassette elements correctly upon assembly and ensuring the correct fastening torque is applied to the locking nut, this notching can be minimised or avoided altogether. We have yet to see a case where notching has created a problem.

So in summary, we choose the weight and cost saving over the potential for notching of which the effects are negligible.
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Re: Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

Postby bianchi928 » Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:44 pm

As someone whose dream job was bike tester for Ride Cycling Review, this comes pretty close. Registered.

I think it's agreat idea to go to the market for input.

No questions at this stage except usual things like weight, cost, side winds etc.
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Re: Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

Postby Swiss_Side_Wheels » Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:49 pm

Carrots wrote:
AUbicycles wrote:I would like to ask about the alumnium freehub and reasons why this is preferred over a steel freehub. Are there other considerations beyond weight and what would the weight penalty be?


On the aluminum subject. Is there another compound, or even carbon quality that can be used as a braking surface with the durability/longevity of alu but without the additional weight?


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That's an interesting question and one we have quite some research into! The issue with carbon braking surfaces is that you need heat to get them to work properly. On F1 car carbon discs & pads, to get the high friction coefficients for braking you need to be up around the 600C mark. This is not feasible on a bike wheel because you would need a hell of a lot of energy to develop those sorts of temperatures, and then it would delaminate your carbon wheel and burst your tyre all at the same time. So not a good solution. So basically the use of carbon fibre in bike wheels is only for the weight & stiffness. The braking performance is always going to be compromised. Soft cork pads are used on carbon braking surfaces as these provide the highest level of friction, however for very high wear and poor performance in the wet.

Side note: F1 brake discs are made of sintered carbonfibre with a minimal amount of resin. They only work under very specific loading conditions which doesn't work for a bike wheel construction. We have some F1 brake discs & pads so we took a picture for you.
Image

As for other braking surface or treatments, as other manufacturers have done, we have experimented with ceramic coatings on braking surfaces. These offer a different braking characteristics over aluminium for massively reduced rim wear. In the dry they are great but in the wet they are terrible. In addition, you need to use special brake pads for ceramic rim coating. However the coating application drives the price up massively and ultimately it is not of interest. All in all, aluminium braking surfaces are pretty much as good as it's going to get. If you are keen for improved braking, then (steel) disc brakes are the way to go, but be aware that you'll carry the 10-15% drag penalty on the wheels for running these. (See comment on disc brakes earlier in the forum). Below we have attached a picture of a Franc prototype rim with a (grey) tungsten-carbide ceramic coating.
Image
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Re: Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

Postby usernameforme » Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:22 pm

Swiss_Side_Wheels wrote:
Carrots wrote:
AUbicycles wrote:I would like to ask about the alumnium freehub and reasons why this is preferred over a steel freehub. Are there other considerations beyond weight and what would the weight penalty be?


I think the weight penalty is x2 - but not sure. I'm guessing that it's easier to manufacturor too

Also, alloy freehub isn't that bad if you're running campag...
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Re: Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

Postby cerb » Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:15 pm

I love to see product development and R&D... Great stuff!
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Re: Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

Postby warthog1 » Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:52 am

Swiss_Side_Wheels wrote:The aerodynamic drag penalty of the larger hub required for the disc brake, together with a 130mm brake disc was confirmed to be in the order of 10%-15% across the yaw range which is quite significant. Therefore for this Hadron wheel, a disc brake configuration was ruled out.


That is a very small brake disc too.
Hopefully this makes it easier for the UCI to keep the cursed things out of road racing for some time to come :)
In any case most are not going to use them whilst there remains a penalty to do so.
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Re: Get involved & VIP Test the Swiss Side Hadron Wheelset

Postby Swiss_Side_Wheels » Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:27 pm

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It's time for Swiss Side to choose graphics for the new Hadron Aero Wheel Project and we want your help in the selection process. We welcome you to get involved in the Hadron Project by previewing our graphic options and answering a few short questions.
Please click on this link to get involved - http://www.swissside.com/793
By participating in the process you can enter to WIN a FREE SET of the NEW HADRON AERO WHEELS.
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