Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

open topic, for anything cycling related.

Re: Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

Postby wellington_street » Mon Mar 31, 2014 2:15 pm

wombatK wrote:
wellington_street wrote:Bir harsh on the ute driver - looks like a normal lane change. Hes likely to be travelling about 50km/h faster

I don't get what he's hurry is. It was at least 1 or 2 km to the next exit - so really no need to cut it that fine.


You need to account for zoom lens and likely speed differential. It's hardly a close pass.

wombatK wrote:It's also worth questioning your assumption that he's ok to be doing 80 kph when passing. The speed limit is 80 kph, but you are not
entitled to drive at that speed if it's not appropriate (safe) for the conditions. Passing close to a cyclist at that speed is not IMHO safe for the
conditions.


From the limited information available (i.e. a single photo from a telephoto lens) he's around 1.5m, if not more, from the cyclists when passing them in the adjacent lane.
wellington_street
 
Posts: 958
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:25 pm

by BNA » Mon Mar 31, 2014 2:48 pm

BNA
 

Re: Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

Postby Xplora » Mon Mar 31, 2014 2:48 pm

Thanks for posting the photo. I saw that article during my maccas break.

THIS IS PRECISELY WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT. The drivers have lost a full lane now, and this sends serious signals to the rest of the road users that they aren't required to take care, because there will be a flashing light and a vehicle to send the right signals.

I can see value perhaps on a special ride... Parramatta Cycling ran a Gran Fondo on Good Friday last year that must have attracted 80-100 riders. They were slow rolling. Sag wagon might help there.

But ultimately, the vehicle takes a flexible situation, and makes it very inflexible. It highlights the rude fact that a car is an extremely intrusive vehicle, and a rolling road block pretty much makes certain the basic reality that car drivers are untrustworthy. Despite licences, rego, etc. They aren't to be trusted. So we will block up your whole lane with your own medicine.

Weekend ride recently advised we would be taking "due care" to remove debris etc from the path of the breakdown lane we use... I would hate to think that due care meant blocking half of Windsor Road with a sag wagon, because I can promise the weekend ride will get ABSOLUTELY HUGE with that level of protection.
Xplora
 
Posts: 5909
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:33 pm
Location: TL;DR

Re: Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

Postby mikesbytes » Mon Mar 31, 2014 3:28 pm

You can see from the photo that at that time 3 lanes is not required for motor traffic. And that's what I have experienced riding along there on Sunday mornings
A helmet saved my life
User avatar
mikesbytes
Super Mod
Super Mod
 
Posts: 14785
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:42 pm
Location: Tempe, Sydney

Re: Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

Postby g-boaf » Mon Mar 31, 2014 3:41 pm

sogood wrote:Gosh, support car behind an amateur bunch. It's going to be interesting when it comes to traffic lights. The bunch moves through and the support car necessarily stops... Catch up won't take long though.


I think this is sadly now necessary - last group ride I was on did encounter one crazy van driver . A car, preferably a hulking big Merc G-wagen would have been a great barrier.
User avatar
g-boaf
 
Posts: 3954
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:11 pm

Re: Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

Postby Xplora » Mon Mar 31, 2014 3:45 pm

mikesbytes wrote:You can see from the photo that at that time 3 lanes is not required for motor traffic. And that's what I have experienced riding along there on Sunday mornings

What I see is abundant evidence that most Sydney drivers are no better than petulant children with no excuse for terrorising a cyclist or hitting them as those poor 6 people were hit on the 16th... the sagwagon is simply confirmation that there is no justification for the angst on the roads. Cars either don't need the space used by riders, or can't go fast enough to realistically suffer. :idea:
Xplora
 
Posts: 5909
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:33 pm
Location: TL;DR

Re: Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

Postby wellington_street » Mon Mar 31, 2014 4:01 pm

Vigilante sag-wagonism - spread the word! If you are driving around and see a cyclist, just hang behind him/her to protect them from other drivers ;)
wellington_street
 
Posts: 958
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:25 pm

Re: Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

Postby outnabike » Mon Mar 31, 2014 4:29 pm

wellington_street wrote:Vigilante sag-wagonism - spread the word! If you are driving around and see a cyclist, just hang behind him/her to protect them from other drivers ;)


Believe it or not I have done this. When driving my land cruiser I slowed and let the cyclist through a pinch point knowing that I could easily overtake, but the following car may not be as kind. :D
User avatar
outnabike
 
Posts: 888
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:53 pm
Location: Melbourne Vic

Re: Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

Postby Xplora » Mon Mar 31, 2014 4:30 pm

wellington_street wrote:Vigilante sag-wagonism - spread the word! If you are driving around and see a cyclist, just hang behind him/her to protect them from other drivers ;)

This isn't NEARLY as insane as it sounds. There is certainly no law preventing you from refusing to overtake. "I didn't deem it safe" might have some legs in court. 8)
Xplora
 
Posts: 5909
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:33 pm
Location: TL;DR

Re: Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

Postby il padrone » Mon Mar 31, 2014 4:40 pm

wombatK wrote:Comparing the width the bunch occupies two-abreast in the lane also suggests that it would be a real squeeze
for them to fit on the shoulder. So why not ride single-file in the shoulder ? With cyclist mounted
video surveillance for insurance ?

Because riding two-abreast and on the road lane ensures that drivers see and take action to avoid the riders. A single line on the shoulder is an 80kmh close-shave waiting to happen.
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 18291
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

Postby g-boaf » Mon Mar 31, 2014 6:47 pm

il padrone wrote:
wombatK wrote:Comparing the width the bunch occupies two-abreast in the lane also suggests that it would be a real squeeze
for them to fit on the shoulder. So why not ride single-file in the shoulder ? With cyclist mounted
video surveillance for insurance ?

Because riding two-abreast and on the road lane ensures that drivers see and take action to avoid the riders. A single line on the shoulder is an 80kmh close-shave waiting to happen.

Riding two abreast and on the road lane doesn't prevent the driver doing stupid things to try and scare the cyclists. The worry is when they get the scare attempt wrong and go firing through the back of the group of riders.

It will deter the sensible drivers, but the increasing number of drivers fueled by the mainstream media and social media won't be deterred. That said, claiming the lane is something I will do without hesitation.
User avatar
g-boaf
 
Posts: 3954
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:11 pm

Re: Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

Postby il padrone » Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:00 pm

Actually the incident under the 'scope at the present seems to have been a basic DNS/DNL. No brake lights allegedly. There is not too much you can do about this, but our courts really must throw the damn library at such numpties.

Making yourself as visible and obvious as possible on the roads is a help in avoiding these tragic collisions. Lights, bright clothing, very obvious lane position, movement, all helps.
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 18291
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

Postby Mike Ayling » Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:04 pm

il padrone wrote:
Making yourself as visible and obvious as possible on the roads is a help in avoiding these tragic collisions. Lights, bright clothing, very obvious lane position, movement, all helps.


+1

Mike
Mike Ayling
 
Posts: 172
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:26 pm

Re: Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

Postby trailgumby » Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:16 pm

Xplora wrote:
wellington_street wrote:Vigilante sag-wagonism - spread the word! If you are driving around and see a cyclist, just hang behind him/her to protect them from other drivers ;)

This isn't NEARLY as insane as it sounds. There is certainly no law preventing you from refusing to overtake. "I didn't deem it safe" might have some legs in court. 8)

I did this on the weekend. Lakes Way between Smiths Lake and Forster, NSW.

There were between 20-30 cyclists I came across on Sunday morning early in groups of 2-5. I was more than happy to sit behind those going the same direction and wait until it was safe to overtake with a 1.5m gap. If there was a double centre line, I waited.

Dunno what would have happened if someone had come up behind me, but being patient and treating these guys (and occasional gal) with courtesy felt good. :)
"People have a right to their own opinions, but not their own facts. Evidence must be located, not created, and opinions not backed by evidence cannot be given much weight." -- James W Loewen

http://www.facebook.com/Drive2WorkDay
User avatar
trailgumby
 
Posts: 10271
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 4:30 pm
Location: Northern Beaches, Sydney

Re: Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

Postby Pedaling » Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:32 pm

il padrone wrote:Making yourself as visible and obvious as possible on the roads is a help in avoiding these tragic collisions. Lights, bright clothing, very obvious lane position, movement, all helps.

This is exactly what the "sag wagon" does.
As for the motorists interaction with the sag wagon, in my experience from a couple of weeks ago, I was amazed at the differences of the motorists attitudes.
Riding without a sag wagon, this year alone, we have had beer bottles thrown at the bunch, which resulted in a broken wheel and bleeding legs, two wonderful people on a motorcycle trying to kick riders off their bicycles twice on the same ride. I also seen a Nissan GTR weave between two bunches and just missed the back of the leading bunch while at speed. Bullies like these pieces of shite, may not be as "tough" if they thought they may get caught.
Compared to my experience of driving the sag wagon, I had motorists slowing down significantly, waves of appreciation, and giving the bunch an extra lane. I was held up at the lights three times, although I was never too far behind to worry in the slightest.
We had a fall in the bunch on Sunday morning, and if you drive a car, you know there is no chance of being run over by the sag wagon.
The sag wagon is not perfect, nor will it ever will be, but it is a lot bloody safer compared.
I ride on the roads almost every day, averaging over 300 km a week, and I know I feel a lot safer with somebody watching my back.
Cheers,

Darrin.
"Life is just a ride" Bill Hicks
Pedaling
 
Posts: 167
Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:07 pm
Location: Botany, Sydney.

Re: Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

Postby il padrone » Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:43 pm

Pedaling wrote:
il padrone wrote:Making yourself as visible and obvious as possible on the roads is a help in avoiding these tragic collisions. Lights, bright clothing, very obvious lane position, movement, all helps.

This is exactly what the "sag wagon" does.

Not all of us like, nor desire, to ride about with a sag wagon. I certainly do not wish to see it become some sort of new norm for organised group rides on our roads. As I said, the thin edge of a very big wedge.

Some very basic care, skill, and patience on the part of drivers of motor vehicles is what is required. It is possible, it can be created through more rigorous (not draconian) enforcement of the existing road rules. Our current governments, police, and courts are in a position to do this. Right now!
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 18291
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

Postby warthog1 » Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:51 pm

+1
Well said Pete.


Blame tapatalk
User avatar
warthog1
 
Posts: 2804
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:40 pm

Re: Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

Postby gorilla monsoon » Tue Apr 01, 2014 4:22 pm

il padrone wrote:
Pedaling wrote:
il padrone wrote:Making yourself as visible and obvious as possible on the roads is a help in avoiding these tragic collisions. Lights, bright clothing, very obvious lane position, movement, all helps.

This is exactly what the "sag wagon" does.

Not all of us like, nor desire, to ride about with a sag wagon. I certainly do not wish to see it become some sort of new norm for organised group rides on our roads. As I said, the thin edge of a very big wedge.

Some very basic care, skill, and patience on the part of drivers of motor vehicles is what is required. It is possible, it can be created through more rigorous (not draconian) enforcement of the existing road rules. Our current governments, police, and courts are in a position to do this. Right now!


Ooohh!! What's it like in Utopia where road authorities and politicians actually give a damn?
Some days you are a big, strutting rooster, some days you are a bit chicken and some days you are just a complete cocque. Roger Ramjet: 2009 Giant CRX3 Spockette: 2009 Trek FX 7.3 (WSD, property of Mrs Monsoon) Lady Penelope: 2011 Avanti Cadent 1.0 TdF
User avatar
gorilla monsoon
 
Posts: 2849
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:45 am
Location: Central Coast/Lake Macquarie

Re: Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

Postby human909 » Tue Apr 01, 2014 4:47 pm

gorilla monsoon wrote:Ooohh!! What's it like in Utopia where road authorities and politicians actually give a damn?


Flights to Amsterdam aren't too expensive theses days if you want to find out. :wink: If you can't afford the flight, then down here in Melbourne we have two councils who really do give a damn. (Pity, councils can't change the road rules.)


Though I think his point was self evidence. Most people don't want to ride with a sag wagon.
human909
 
Posts: 4784
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:48 am

Re: Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

Postby il padrone » Tue Apr 01, 2014 5:57 pm

gorilla monsoon wrote:Ooohh!! What's it like in Utopia where road authorities and politicians actually give a damn?

Please point out where I said this?

Maybe start by lobbying your local politicians, council, state member etc. Write letters, demand responses, support other lobby groups. That's if you actually give a damn...


As far as the sag-wagon is concerned I personally never feel that I need one for my safety on the roads, whether riding solo or in a group. I do however generally avoid those freeway-style roads where I can, as they are not pleasant places to ride. Potentially quite safe, just noisy, boring, and full of road debris in the breakdown lane.
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 18291
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

Postby Pedaling » Tue Apr 01, 2014 9:31 pm

il padrone wrote:
Pedaling wrote:
il padrone wrote:Making yourself as visible and obvious as possible on the roads is a help in avoiding these tragic collisions. Lights, bright clothing, very obvious lane position, movement, all helps.

This is exactly what the "sag wagon" does.

Not all of us like, nor desire, to ride about with a sag wagon. I certainly do not wish to see it become some sort of new norm for organised group rides on our roads. As I said, the thin edge of a very big wedge.

Some very basic care, skill, and patience on the part of drivers of motor vehicles is what is required. It is possible, it can be created through more rigorous (not draconian) enforcement of the existing road rules. Our current governments, police, and courts are in a position to do this. Right now!

No one is forcing you to ride with a sag wagon. You can ride wherever you desire.
Our Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday and Saturday club rides do not involve a sag wagon.
Obviously you are not familiar with cycling routes south of Sydney. There is no other alternative for large bunches, unless you ride down the princes hwy, which in my opinion is way more dangerous. ESCC only rode this route for one week, until they looked at other alternatives.
As for "thin edge of the wedge", seriously? What are you talking about? Do think there will be a bikie law for cyclists?
And "skill and care on the part of drivers of motor vehicles", I some times find it difficult controlling myself, let alone trying to control somebody else.
Cheers,

Darrin
"Life is just a ride" Bill Hicks
Pedaling
 
Posts: 167
Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:07 pm
Location: Botany, Sydney.

Re: Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

Postby il padrone » Tue Apr 01, 2014 9:41 pm

Pedaling wrote:As for "thin edge of the wedge", seriously? What are you talking about? Do think there will be a bikie law for cyclists?

In the late 70s most people riding bikes would have said exactly the same thing about the idea of compelling all cyclists to wear helmets.

15 years later and we had the law. :idea:



I am never complacent about the level of our 'nanny-state' response and the ongoing systemic bias against cyclists. You've only got to have your club accident insurers seeing this, and hence requiring sag-wagons for all rides 'for safety' (to minimise their risks), and soon enough the state government will bring in the rule for all rides with >6 riders.
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 18291
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

Postby Xplora » Tue Apr 01, 2014 9:52 pm

Pedaling wrote:No one is forcing you to ride with a sag wagon. You can ride wherever you desire.

Right now. You can't guarantee that this won't be the case in the future.

What I can see is a precedent where really large group rides have sag wagons and start riding in the lanes of major roads like Southern Cross, or Windsor Road, or James Ruse Drive, or the Great Western Highway... and they stop using the breakdown lanes and cause more angst and disruption; and it will be their legal right to do so.

Hopefully that asserted right isn't taken away.

I haven't ridden Southern Cross Drive, but it's worth considering what Padrone is saying, even if you continue to use the sag wagon. It is possible that this could hurt more than help.
Xplora
 
Posts: 5909
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:33 pm
Location: TL;DR

Re: Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

Postby Pedaling » Tue Apr 01, 2014 10:00 pm

Helmet laws compared to a law for all cyclists needing a sag wagon to ride on the road, are two completely different things.
Appreciate your point of view though.
"Life is just a ride" Bill Hicks
Pedaling
 
Posts: 167
Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:07 pm
Location: Botany, Sydney.

Re: Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

Postby Pedaling » Tue Apr 01, 2014 10:13 pm

Xplora wrote:
Pedaling wrote:No one is forcing you to ride with a sag wagon. You can ride wherever you desire.

Right now. You can't guarantee that this won't be the case in the future.



Hopefully that asserted right isn't taken away.

I haven't ridden Southern Cross Drive, but it's worth considering what Padrone is saying, even if you continue to use the sag wagon. It is possible that this could hurt more than help.

Neither can you guarantee that it will be the case in the future, so it really is a mute point.
I am not using a sag wagon (I have volunteered once), two Sydney clubs are using a sag wagon on one particular ride to help protect riders.
As for "hurt", three fused spines as well as other horrific injuries is the type of hurt we are trying to prevent.
I have asked for other suggestions previously, but all I received was ridiculous comments.
Cheers,
"Life is just a ride" Bill Hicks
Pedaling
 
Posts: 167
Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:07 pm
Location: Botany, Sydney.

Re: Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

Postby Xplora » Tue Apr 01, 2014 10:42 pm

A friend went to hospital in the ambulance just 10 days ago after taking out 4 others with no further crime to his name than hitting a slippery patch on a foggy morning on a bunch ride. His bike handling skills are good. I'd trust him over me in the paceline!

There is a presumption that these kinds of accidents on the bunch rides are commonplace or preventable. Control isn't something that rests solely with the rider every time. Sag wagons give some protection, sure, but they increase other risks and create other issues down the track, which may be unintended. Bunch riding isn't unsafe. Accidents are rare. COnsidering the skill level required and margin for error, it's amazing that more accidents don't happen. If it wasn't acceptably safe, no one would do the ride. I see a sag wagon as a giant red flag to a bull that can't acknowledge cyclist rights on the road, and now they want to use a car to enforce those rights? Humph lol
Xplora
 
Posts: 5909
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:33 pm
Location: TL;DR

PreviousNext

Return to General discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: AKO, Bing [Bot], Blinding, Grejoh, liamb, reefer, TouringPhil



Popular Bike Shops
Torpedo 7 Torpedo7 AU
Ground Effect Ground Effect NZ
Chain Reaction Cycles CRC UK
Wiggle Wiggle UK
Ebay Ebay AU

“Bicycles BNA Twitter
“Bicycles BNA Facebook
“Google+ BNA Google+
“Bicycles BNA Newsletter

> FREE BNA Stickers
> BNA Cycling Kit