Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

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Re: Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

Postby human909 » Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:35 pm

Pedaling wrote:Helmet laws compared to a law for all cyclists needing a sag wagon to ride on the road, are two completely different things.

Yes, helmets and MHLs are of questionable effectiveness and even then they have been forced upon us by the nanny state. That said it is a "free country"** If it is deemed by those that a sag wagon is necessary for safety or support then they can go right ahead.

This decision may keep those involved safer. It it is a continuing trend however will likely make cycling in Australia less safe and free. I'm not meaning to criticise the decision. In some ways cyclists who wear hi-vis vests when cycling do also. (Something that at times I have done.)

**(well sorta, if you have your helmet)
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by BNA » Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:30 am

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Re: Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

Postby wombatK » Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:30 am

Pedaling wrote:I have asked for other suggestions previously, but all I received was ridiculous comments.
Cheers,

I made a suggestion with the photo post, not a ridiculous comment
Wombatk wrote:So why not ride single-file in the shoulder ? With cyclist mounted video surveillance for insurance

Cheers
WombatK

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Re: Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:38 am

Pedaling wrote:
Xplora wrote:
Pedaling wrote:No one is forcing you to ride with a sag wagon. You can ride wherever you desire.

Right now. You can't guarantee that this won't be the case in the future.



Hopefully that asserted right isn't taken away.

I haven't ridden Southern Cross Drive, but it's worth considering what Padrone is saying, even if you continue to use the sag wagon. It is possible that this could hurt more than help.

Neither can you guarantee that it will be the case in the future, so it really is a mute point.
I am not using a sag wagon (I have volunteered once), two Sydney clubs are using a sag wagon on one particular ride to help protect riders.
As for "hurt", three fused spines as well as other horrific injuries is the type of hurt we are trying to prevent.
I have asked for other suggestions previously, but all I received was ridiculous comments.
Cheers,


For the Eastern Suburbs clubs there really isn't an alternative to Southern Cross Drive. Princess is fine, but part of Gardners and Canal to get there isn't that great

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Easts using Foreshore? Or was that just for the way out?
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Re: Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

Postby Mulger bill » Wed Apr 02, 2014 6:41 pm

Pedaling wrote:As for "thin edge of the wedge", seriously? What are you talking about? Do think there will be a bikie law for cyclists?

From the QLD VLAD legislation...
any other group of 3 or more persons by whatever name called,
whether associated formally or informally and
whether the group is legal or illegal.

Now, IANAL but it reads to me that ANYONE could be made to fit under such a broad brush, and since relevant crimes need only be declared under regulation it wouldn't take much.
I welcome comment from anybody who is not entitled to append IANAL after their name.
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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Re: Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

Postby find_bruce » Wed Apr 02, 2014 8:02 pm

What was that old line from Joh's time - 1's company, 2's company, 3's an illegal gathering
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Re: Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

Postby il padrone » Wed Apr 02, 2014 8:18 pm

Pedaling wrote:I have asked for other suggestions previously, but all I received was ridiculous comments.

A protest rally/ride is a "ridicluous comment" ??

I don't get that :|
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Re: Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

Postby Pedaling » Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:04 pm

wombatK wrote:
Pedaling wrote:I have asked for other suggestions previously, but all I received was ridiculous comments.
Cheers,

I made a suggestion with the photo post, not a ridiculous comment
Wombatk wrote:So why not ride single-file in the shoulder ? With cyclist mounted video surveillance for insurance

Cheers

Hey Wombat,
Unfortunately there is no shoulder for a few kilometres, eg; under the airport tunnel, etc.
I am sorry, I did not see your comment previously, thanks mate.

Darrin.
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Re: Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

Postby Pedaling » Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:18 pm

"For the Eastern Suburbs clubs there really isn't an alternative to Southern Cross Drive. Princess is fine, but part of Gardners and Canal to get there isn't that great"

"Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Easts using Foreshore? Or was that just for the way out?" Mikesbytes[/quote][/quote][/quote]
Hey Mike,
I am not familiar too familiar with the various routes Easts ride. I believe their slower group ride south along Foreshore Rd, then left onto General Holmes Dr when riding South.
To return that way you would need to turn right from General Holmes Dr onto Foreshore Rd, meaning the bunch would need to cross 5 lanes of high speed traffic.
Unfortunately this not an alternative to return back to Centennial Park.
Thanks for that Mike.
Cheers,

Darrin.
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Re: Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

Postby wombatK » Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:33 pm

Pedaling wrote:Hey Wombat,
Unfortunately there is no shoulder for a few kilometres, eg; under the airport tunnel, etc.
I am sorry, I did not see your comment previously, thanks mate.

Darrin.

Yep, there's no shoulder there. The airport tunnel, with the merge of General Holmes
Drive and M5, plus upcoming turn-offs left into the BP/Maccas and right into Foreshore
Drive make it a hectic place for traffic, with a shoulder that might be 50 cm at most.
The crashes into cyclists seem however to occur in less hectic places, where there
is a viable shoulder option.

IIRC, there has been one in recent times where a female cyclist was badly injured
(crushed against guard rail) on the fly-over where Southern Cross Drive goes
over General Holmes Drive and Botany Rd (and there's minimal shoulder).
In those places, claiming the lane in single file might be more daunting than
two abreast - maybe defies the Theory of Big a bit. But it would actually give
each cyclist a better safety margin for sideways falls or escapes if any
inadvertent wheel-touching or other problems brought a rider down.

Two-abreast cycling is a well established standard practice for large bunches
and pro riders training. As well as looking "big", it has advantages in keeping
the bunch together at traffic lights etc.,.. But there's no lights on motorways
and other ways of looking "big". Changing standard practice for these
non-standard situations might be worth a thought.

Cheers
WombatK

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Re: Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

Postby Pedaling » Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:40 pm

wombatK wrote:
Pedaling wrote:Hey Wombat,
Unfortunately there is no shoulder for a few kilometres, eg; under the airport tunnel, etc.
I am sorry, I did not see your comment previously, thanks mate.

Darrin.



Two-abreast cycling is a well established standard practice for large bunches
and pro riders training. As well as looking "big", it has advantages in keeping
the bunch together at traffic lights etc.,.. But there's no lights on motorways
and other ways of looking "big". Changing standard practice for these
non-standard situations might be worth a thought.

Cheers


A bit lateral thinking, i will bring this up at Bathurst this weekend with my club mates.
Thanks mate.
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Re: Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

Postby Pedaling » Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:45 pm

il padrone wrote:
Pedaling wrote:I have asked for other suggestions previously, but all I received was ridiculous comments.

A protest rally/ride is a "ridicluous comment" ??

I don't get that :|


I made a mistake in thinking your suggestion was ridiculous, sorry my bad.
"Put 1000 road cyclists down Southern Cross Drive, one Sunday morning..............." Il Padrone. :roll:
Cheers,

Darrin.
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Re: Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

Postby il padrone » Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:59 pm

You have had six riders hit by a motorist (who evidently may not have braked at all) with two at least having severe, life-changing injuries involving a very long-term recovery. On a popular riding route that is used by large groups on Sunday mornings, a route that has no provisions for cyclists. You don't think a protest action of some kind is desirable :? :shock:

Is it that you don't think you can muster the numbers?




A few years ago in Melbourne a lady was riding to work. She passed a stationary bus on Swanston 'Walk'. As the bus began to move off, she was forced out across tram tracks, clipped the track, and fell in front of the bus.... and was killed. Horribly. In the middle of peak hour traffic.

Mass numbers of commuter cyclists turned out spontaneously, in silent vigil in protest about the death. Everyone knew the buses on Swanston were a real hazard, there had been warning incidents and discussions. Following ongoing lobbying (not sure whether there was a further protest ride) the buses were banned from Swanston Walk. Protest action together with well-targetted lobbying does work.



Can I suggest a lobbying target to work for with your RTA. Transit lanes are common on some of our freeways, time limited. Only vehicles with two or more people on board can use them. This is seen as a way to rationally allocate road space for efficiency and safety. How about campaigning for a time-limited whole-lane bike lane on the road - just for, say, 6am-10am on Sunday mornings? Cars have two lanes (there are three I gather from the photo), cyclists have access to the left lane with safety.

Campaign amongst the road clubs, road riders forums etc. Mobilise riders for a special one-off Sunday morning protest ride down Southern Cross Drive. Hundreds.... thousands (?), with some warning/support vehicles as well. Get the police on board, perhaps start by talking to their bike sqaud first. Just some ideas.



But if it doesn't matter to you, or if it's all too hard......... well go for the sag I guess :roll: You did ask for suggetions about what to do.
Last edited by il padrone on Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

Postby Xplora » Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:30 am

il padrone wrote:How about campaigning for a time-limited whole-lane bike lane on the road - just for, say, 6am-10am on Sunday mornings? Cars have two lanes (there are three I gather from the photo), cyclists have access to the left lane

This isn't as stupid as it first seems. I have had my third moment. MHL, cars as roving battering rams, and now cycling as the dominant road user.
I will have a word.
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Re: Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

Postby redned » Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:15 pm

Xplora wrote:
il padrone wrote:How about campaigning for a time-limited whole-lane bike lane on the road - just for, say, 6am-10am on Sunday mornings? Cars have two lanes (there are three I gather from the photo), cyclists have access to the left lane

This isn't as stupid as it first seems. I have had my third moment. MHL, cars as roving battering rams, and now cycling as the dominant road user.
I will have a word.


I have seen this in other cities. This one in Brasilia. All day Sunday.
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Re: Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

Postby Lukeyboy » Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:54 pm

Do Lazer? RUN THE TRACK!

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Re: Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

Postby herzog » Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:57 pm

Still no charges laid?
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Re: Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

Postby trailgumby » Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:38 pm

Probably still investigating. I highly doubt they'll have let it go given the high media profile - it would be a career limiting move.
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Re: Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

Postby trailgumby » Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:54 pm

@IP: Wow. Some very incisive commentary in that article you linked from The Age:

Clay Lucas wrote:"In many ways, the growth (of cycling in Melbourne) is happening back to front," says Cycling Promotion Fund spokesman Eliot Fishman. "We do the marketing and then the infrastructure is a lot slower coming behind."
Other less diplomatic transport experts say this practice has another name: greenwash.
RMIT senior transport lecturer Dr Paul Mees supports encouraging cycling by making it safer for cyclists. But he doesn't believe this is what Victorian local and state governments do.
"Governments and city councils that want to distract attention that their main agenda, which is facilitating car use, will often say nice things about cycling, and they run Ride to Work days. They will put on breakfasts and barbecues for people that do the right thing, because it's a lot easier than actually substantially changing transport policies."
Ride to Work Day, which attracts 30,000 cyclists nationally, is about attempting to get more people riding more often.
But it is hard not to speculate that there is an element of greenwash in the event, given its sponsorship by, among others, VicRoads and the RACV.
Its organiser, Bicycle Victoria, gets some of its money from Melbourne City Council, VicRoads and the State Government - which it rarely criticises, even in extreme circumstances such as earlier this year when bikes were banned - albeit briefly - from trains during peak hour.


Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/national/in-ca ... z2xorErkN7
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Re: Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

Postby il padrone » Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:55 pm

trailgumby wrote:@IP: Wow. Some very incisive commentary in that article you linked from The Age:

That is all pretty accurate in my opinion. BV/BN has routinley failed to support the concept and interests of cyclists using trains for multi-mode travel. They ignored the attempted ban, until a group of rural commuters raised the issue and ran hard on it. BV/BNB was embarassed into some action. They failed to ensure that the new V'locity trains had suitable room for bike carriage (and I have heard nothing about modifications to the design for the new trains about to be ordered ??). They used to use trains for transport to the start of the GVBR, but dropped that in about 1993.

BV/BN is funded to a fairly large measure by government grants, and this colours their desire to criticise the government's policies.

BV/BN has been into greenwash and image coiffures for a long time. They abandoned the ownership of a valuable and very versatile city heritage property for their office, to instead move to an inaccessible city 12th floor anonymous office (which to this day I have never found the time nor desire to visit). They managed to get their operations classified as a "health charity" - what a freakin' joke :roll: :evil: . All in the pursuit of the glorious manna!
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Re: Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

Postby bigfriendlyvegan » Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:26 pm

il padrone wrote:You have had six riders hit by a motorist (who evidently may not have braked at all) with two at least having severe, life-changing injuries involving a very long-term recovery. On a popular riding route that is used by large groups on Sunday mornings, a route that has no provisions for cyclists. You don't think a protest action of some kind is desirable :? :shock:

Is it that you don't think you can muster the numbers?


My club gets over 200 riders on weekday mornings at Sydney Olympic Park, some of the same guys who ride Southern Cross Dr on weekends. It's a very small community, relatively speaking, and I'm pretty certain there are no more than 2 degrees of separation between any club cyclists in Sydney. A thousand riders in club kit is completely doable and, if they rode in their club groups, would be extraordinarily "visual".
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Re: Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

Postby schroeds » Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:51 pm

I'll be there. Name a date.

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Re: Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

Postby il padrone » Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:08 pm

redned wrote:I have seen this in other cities. This one in Brasilia. All day Sunday.
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Ciclovia, Bogota. I think it is every Sunday.
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Re: Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

Postby biker jk » Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:18 pm

il padrone wrote:
Ciclovia, Bogota. I think it is every Sunday.
Image


Is that Nairo Quintana in the red, white and blue top, with cap heading over the pedestrian crossing?
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Re: Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

Postby TREKKER_MIKE » Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:18 pm

Just an FYI guys, i emailed my local member Barbara Perry with a few suggestions.
She asked me if this could be forwarded to the transport minister
2 things i strongly suggest are as follows

5am - 10am on saturdays and sundays ALL motorways have a dedicated cycle lane. Much like a bus lane or a transit lane. no motorist is allowed to be in that lane so riders should have more space. This will encourage more riders to use these dedicated lanes for training without traffic lights and stops, so you can get a GREAT training session in. The roads are never that busy that time of more to impact the traffic.

Personally i would love to hit the M4 and ride to Penrith and back on a saturday morning knowing that i have my own space and minimise the risks

Councils start sweeping the shoulders once a week. This way when we hear a car coming, we can move over just a little bit more or if we feel unsafe with the road/traffic we can use a nice clean shoulder. "if the shoulders were clean, more cyclists could shuffle over and have 2 meters between car and bike"
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Re: Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

Postby human909 » Sat Apr 05, 2014 2:20 pm

I'm not sure that we bicycles should be encouraged onto "motorways", not only is it dangerous but it defeats the purpose of these roads.

Motorway is an odd NSW term that has no meaning in the road rules. In many cases "motorways" are in fact "freeways" which IS does have a meaning in the road rules. Sydney is a bit odd the fact in the fact that bicycles are allowed on their freeways in metropolitan areas. In general bicycles are banned from metropolitan freeways, exceptions seem to be made where there is no practical alternative route. Likewise freeways, motorways, interstates and autobahns across the globe normally ban bicycles and other slow moving vehicles except where no alternatives exist.

Now if there is a there is no practical alternatives to cyclists than the motorway then that is the problem that needs to be fixed. Having bikes on a metropolitan motorway even with a dedicated lane is NOT a good fix. Dutch cyclists, in fact most European cyclists, would find this concept laughable.


(It puzzles me that there is no other practicable alternative exists, but I'm ignorant on Sydney topography. Why isn't Anazac and Botany Rd possible?)
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