UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby LG » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:04 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
Comedian wrote:
LG wrote:What I struggle to understand is the immediate argument that a wound like this couldn't be caused by a disc rotor, it must have been something else unless all other theories are disproved. Have disc rotors not caused injuries in the past? I don't know, I wasn't there for this incident, but Katie rides a disc braked bike and is not advocating against the use of discs, the only mention is tangling with 2 other riders. Maybe it was on a hard surface or the edge of a barrier, I don't know, but cyclocross tracks often aren't the most solid surfaces. I'm not advocating for or against discs, as mentioned in numerous previous posts they are just one of innumerable possible way to be injured during a bike race.


What gets me about this thread and others.. is how the pro disc-ers :mrgreen: will argue that adding discs to a road biking peloton does not create additional risk. I get that they might argue the quantum of that risk - but that it doesn't add some additional risk is beyond me. :roll: Typically they argue that because of the existing risks that the addition of however many riders x 2 disc rotors adds no risk whatsoever. :roll:

It's really only answerable with sufficient race accident data, which we will never see.

The use of disk brakes in road races can both add and reduce injury risk because there are various risk factors, some of which may be positively influenced by use of disk brakes, some negatively, others neutrally and a few factors will depend on the race scenario. What the overall difference is we'll likely never know due to the lack of data.


Couldn't agree more. You will see injuries like those to Katie, not commonly but they will occur, but better braking modulation will also provide more confidence descending which in theory will be safer.
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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:37 am

Jmuzz wrote:Disks can also reduce injury due to better braking. Shorter stops, less front wheel lockup stack, less chance or a rim explosion, less chance of weak brakes.

If your brakes work better it means riders may well push the limits more and find other points of failure instead - keep in mind this is about UCI racing and that as I said above, many risk factors can go either way depending on the scenario.

Jmuzz wrote:All things considered it is not an answer anyone can give, not going to be much in it.

Most likely but we won't really know because the data to answer the questions is not being collected.

I don't see the UCI or CA reversing the introduction of such tech though so it's probably somewhat moot now.

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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby andrewjcw » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:02 am

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:Most likely but we won't really know because the data to answer the questions is not being collected.

I don't see the UCI or CA reversing the introduction of such tech though so it's probably somewhat moot now.


But but people have been racing discs for months in Australia now :shock: :?: . Surely that should be enough time for hundreds of arterial lacerations, 50 rider pile ups from difference in braking strength, people flying over the handlebars from braking too hard, 3rd degree burns from contact with glowing red hot rotors and terrible crashes from wheels unable to cope with the forces of disc brakes.

Or have just all the disc racers been dropped in the first 2 minutes from the horrendous weight and aero disadvantage we've all been hearing so much about?

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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby LG » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:29 am

andrewjcw wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:Most likely but we won't really know because the data to answer the questions is not being collected.

I don't see the UCI or CA reversing the introduction of such tech though so it's probably somewhat moot now.


But but people have been racing discs for months in Australia now :shock: :?: . Surely that should be enough time for hundreds of arterial lacerations, 50 rider pile ups from difference in braking strength, people flying over the handlebars from braking too hard, 3rd degree burns from contact with glowing red hot rotors and terrible crashes from wheels unable to cope with the forces of disc brakes.

Or have just all the disc racers been dropped in the first 2 minutes from the horrendous weight and aero disadvantage we've all been hearing so much about?


This now seems to have moved towards being absurd (although maybe it's been there awhile), I'm assuming irony is in play although it doesn't seem to present well on internet forums. Is it now going to be a situation where 'look nothing's happened for a couple months that proves it's a non-issue' to 'look somebody's suffered a rotor wound that vindicates the argument that discs are dangerous'?

It will be interesting to see what occurs over the period of years with widespread use of discs. Will hypothetically 1 rotor wound a year be acceptable for better braking modulation and 'safer' descending? How about 5 wounds a year? It may be 1 every 5 years? I don't think anyone can argue that a disc rotor will never form part of an injury to a rider. I assume every rotor wound will be heavily reported, while other wounds are already an accepted risk/outcome of the job and don't receive attention. Can this be evaluated adequately from 1 Australian summer? On the flip side, how do you quantify that an accident has been prevented by using disc rather than caliper brakes?

I look forward to somebody (not sure who) gathering statistics from several years data of how many single rider crashes occur and percentage of disc v's calliper brakes by percentage of peloton. But then again, can this be measured properly when numerous confounding variables come into play like rider fatigue (or just screwing up), do you count crashes in Paris-Roubaix, tyre pressure, tyre brand, race situation (somebody slightly outside their comfort zone trying to chase down Nibali on a descent), etc, etc. Other situations where a dog or unseen obstacles are struck brake type may play no part in the crash. It's a race, riders are pushing the limits when they need to, those limits will be exceeded be they on caliper or disc brakes.
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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby Jmuzz » Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:40 pm

Likely disks will just be allowed, and if a few serious disk injuries do happen they will react by requiring covers.

There is a chance covers will happen by themselves anyway for aero, contamination, cooling (both faster and slower, depending on situation) and structural reasons.

Things like fork bottom suspension would benefit from a bolbous lump down there for aero and cosmetics, plus it helps reduce sintered pad noise and contamination. So that is attractive to the commuter market and may flow into the pro race market, if for no reason other than it being good marketing for pro bikes to resemble what is being marketed to consumers.

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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby Comedian » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:45 pm

andrewjcw wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:Most likely but we won't really know because the data to answer the questions is not being collected.

I don't see the UCI or CA reversing the introduction of such tech though so it's probably somewhat moot now.


But but people have been racing discs for months in Australia now :shock: :?: . Surely that should be enough time for hundreds of arterial lacerations, 50 rider pile ups from difference in braking strength, people flying over the handlebars from braking too hard, 3rd degree burns from contact with glowing red hot rotors and terrible crashes from wheels unable to cope with the forces of disc brakes.

Or have just all the disc racers been dropped in the first 2 minutes from the horrendous weight and aero disadvantage we've all been hearing so much about?

Do you mean they have been PERMITTED to be used in races for months? I'd say it's a bit too early to tell anything yet..

On the local crit scene up here we are starting to see them, but they are very rare. No doubt they will become more common over the coming years..

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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby biker jk » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:45 pm

“USA Cycling has reviewed four years of our most recent accident reporting and have not yet found any injury attributed to a disc brake being used,” Shafer continued. “We believe that our national membership is best served by the allowance of these brakes.”

https://cyclingtips.com/2017/07/national-vs-uci-rules-road-disc-brakes-continue-cause-confusion/

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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby Comedian » Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:34 am

Hmmm.. disc brakes are legal.. yet no one riding them at the cobbled classics.. Flat and wet races.. yet even champions of discs and ex mountain bikers like Sagan riding rim brakes.. :mrgreen:

Sagan started the race on a rim-brake version of the Tarmac SL6, which was a better match for the neutral service support on the day than the disc-brake version, and also simplified things with the team since the mechanics only had to carry one type of wheelset.


https://cyclingtips.com/2018/04/tour-of-flanders-tech-pedersen-sells-his-madone-the-bikes-that-survived-flanders/

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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby Jmuzz » Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:54 am

They are heavier so why would they?

It will soon hit the point where they are forced to use them because that's what their sponsors are selling and it's terrible marketing (plus ICF rules) not to be displaying the consumer product.
Will Giant still have a rim TCR in their 2019 lineup? What do the racers do if they don't? Giant won't be paying sponsorship to have out of production 2018 rims paraded around.

Plus the weight issue will even out with the next generation so it's only beneficial from that point.

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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby human909 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:09 am

Compelling arguments for disc brakes seem:
-its the latest technology
-its what the bike companies want to sell
-the disadvantages are negligible so why not

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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby Comedian » Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:38 pm

human909 wrote:Compelling arguments for disc brakes seem:
-its the latest technology
-its what the bike companies want to sell
-the disadvantages are negligible so why not


When you've trained your whole life to get to the very top of the sport.. there is no such thing as a negligible disadvantage. It's either a disadvantage or it is not.

As I've said before.. rim brake bike will survive as a performance option. The only thing that will drive them out of the pro-peloton is if they mandate them. Personally I wouldn't be surprised if they do that at some point as that's the only way to get rid of the disadvantage.

EDIT: An agreement in the teams would also be equally effective at negating the disk dis-advantage.

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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby Jawa » Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:58 pm

Jmuzz wrote:They are heavier so why would they?

It will soon hit the point where they are forced to use them because that's what their sponsors are selling and it's terrible marketing (plus ICF rules) not to be displaying the consumer product.
Will Giant still have a rim TCR in their 2019 lineup? What do the racers do if they don't? Giant won't be paying sponsorship to have out of production 2018 rims paraded around.

Plus the weight issue will even out with the next generation so it's only beneficial from that point.


I think the whole weight thing is already moot. The fact pros have to add ballast to an already featherweight frame clearly proves that there’s room to offset the overall weight now

I’m with you in that the sponsors don’t want the outdated tech being shown around. Likewise a pro can kick and scream about not wanting discs all he wants but if his contract is up for consideration I’m sure he will fall into line. This may also only ever increase in the coming years as the neo pros come through and may only have ever known discs to begin with.

I’ll make a bold prediction … the next gen Dura-ace (3 years?) / SRAM Red group sets will be disc only … if that happens its goodnight for rim brakes

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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby human909 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:16 pm

Jawa wrote:I’m with you in that the sponsors don’t want the outdated tech being shown around.

Are wheels outdated tech too, they've been around for a while...

Who said rim brakes are out dated tech? Sure the are old, they have been kicking around for over a century and depending on definition much much longer. But how are they 'out dated tech?

Jawa wrote:Likewise a pro can kick and scream about not wanting discs all he wants but if his contract is up for consideration I’m sure he will fall into line.

To what ends?

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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby human909 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:19 pm

Here is some 'modern technology' from 1970....

Image
Image
Image

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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby baabaa » Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:20 am

Jawa wrote:
I’m with you in that the sponsors don’t want the outdated tech being shown around. Likewise a pro can kick and scream about not wanting discs all he wants but if his contract is up for consideration I’m sure he will fall into line. This may also only ever increase in the coming years as the neo pros come through and may only have ever known discs to begin with.


Not a big one to fix, look at the paris roubaix plenty of sponsors allow riders to use Dugast tyres they just get the sharpie out. Lots of people know \this and no one really cares. If a rider wants to use FSA stuff the same happens.

Most people here would call a Tiagra rear derailleur with a Ultegra sticker on it looks and shift better than a Ultegra one with a Tiagra sticker and the big brands know that. The leaders ( or the riders with known names) of a pro team could use anything they want but the difference between any of the high end stuff that moves on bikes or shoes of clothes or...at that level is now so, so marginal they ride the stuff until it gets a reboot. Is new always better, doubtful, and possibly the difference is more to do with how many bananas a rider had or had not on that day and in that race.

I don't really follow the what they do anymore, but plenty seem to race on rim brakes but train on discs and I think that they do this (train vs race) is a very good endorsement of both types. I have had discs on a road/ cx bikes for more than 10 years now and still like the overall feel of getting out for longer rides on the rim brake bike as much as I can. If any of the pro riders feel the same and the sponsors don't want them riding a certain bit of kit they wont have a happy team and people will just move on to a team that is.

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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby WyvernRH » Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:56 am

[quote="human909"]Here is some 'modern technology' from 1970....
<snip pictures>
As someone who is old enough to have used these brakes when new (fitted to a tandem) back in the day I can only say that they set back rider acceptance of disc brakes by decades. They didn't work very well (understatement), they squealed like stuck pigs except under heavy braking and the disc was a chunky piece of stainless steel which is not the ideal material for the job (as Japanese motorcycle manufacturers found out about the same time). Also the whole fitting was a bit fragile. Pretty sure that tandem had the cable fitting version but all the hydro versions I have encountered since over the years have been sitting in boxes with broken bits.

N.B. - Of course by 'riders' I mean tourists :P . The racing scene was still wearing red/white/green blinkers back then and had their noses firmly welded to the Campag bandwagon. MTB's of course hadn't been invented yet as such. There were only 'rough stuff' riders in Europe and the pioneer 'Repack' riders in the US.

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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby Jmuzz » Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:37 pm

human909 wrote:
Who said rim brakes are out dated tech? Sure the are old, they have been kicking around for over a century and depending on definition much much longer. But how are they 'out dated tech?


Giant, if they drop TCR rim like they already killed Defy and Propel.

When a major (especially when they are the most powerful) manufacturer stops selling something then they won't be sponsoring it's display anymore.

It will make a lot of sense for them to flatout eliminate stock of rim groupsets from their operation, bulk ordering considerations etc.

If they do keep a rim TCR around it will probably just stagnate on the current 2018 with new paint job.


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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby foo on patrol » Sat Apr 07, 2018 4:54 pm

Only because they think it is quicker to change wheels. :wink:

Disc brakes well and truly have better feel for braking in wet conditions but I guess it is what we are used to? :wink: = CF wheel braking in the wet is by far pathetic to normal rim braking with alloy rims. :idea:

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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby Thoglette » Sat Apr 07, 2018 5:44 pm

foo on patrol wrote:Only because they think it is quicker to change wheels. :wink:

Yes, that article got too close to the truth on a few points.

Gregor Brown wrote:The industry has been pushing discs into the peloton over the last years.

If he keeps letting things slip like that he'll be pushed out of the nest trough!
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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby Comedian » Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:13 am

Jmuzz wrote:
human909 wrote:
Who said rim brakes are out dated tech? Sure the are old, they have been kicking around for over a century and depending on definition much much longer. But how are they 'out dated tech?


Giant, if they drop TCR rim like they already killed Defy and Propel.

When a major (especially when they are the most powerful) manufacturer stops selling something then they won't be sponsoring it's display anymore.

It will make a lot of sense for them to flatout eliminate stock of rim groupsets from their operation, bulk ordering considerations etc.

If they do keep a rim TCR around it will probably just stagnate on the current 2018 with new paint job.

Hmmm.. not even 12 months ago Giant were still releasing super light rim bikes to try and get their teams advantages. :mrgreen:

https://cyclingtips.com/2017/06/team-sunweb-debuts-new-featherweight-race-bike-giro-rosa/

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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby Jmuzz » Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:55 am

Yeah top TCR is still rim only too.
But will be interesting to see what their MY2019 lineup will be.

Part of their Propel motivation would have been that they were making custom rim brakes for it at great expense (more aero), so they were happy to eliminate that and go back to standard Shimano disks.
Plus they could dedicate their deep carbon wheels to disk usage with no braking surface to worry about.

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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby Thoglette » Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:36 pm

Jmuzz wrote:Yeah top TCR is still rim only too.

Interestingly Specialized had rim brakes on a disc-only bike for Quick-Step Floors riders at Paris Roubaix on Sunday

Josh Evans Bike Radar wrote:While the consumer version of the bike is now only available as a disc brake model, the team is using a rim brake version of the bike, which isn't yet available to consumers.


The funniest bit (as a retrogrouch) is that the Dura Ace R9100 calipers are now actually centrepulls with vestigal sidepull cable mounts. (eecycleworks goes one step further towards neo-Mafac-ism)

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(Yes, MAFAC comes in direct mount too)
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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby biker jk » Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:54 pm


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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby Comedian » Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:09 pm

biker jk wrote:UCI finally approves disc brakes (from 1 July 2018). :D

https://cyclingtips.com/2018/06/trial-over-uci-authorise-disc-brake-usage-in-road-racing-2018/


Yes, now we wait to see whether they actually happen. I still don't think they make sense in racing, and especially for pro teams. The bikes aren't faster and the logistic issues are huge. It just depends whether the bike sponsors force it on them and whether they would rather have a losing disc brake bike or a winning rim bike. That's going to be a tough call for them.. :mrgreen:

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