UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

CKinnard
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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby CKinnard » Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:32 pm

Why does any sub 70kg rider (most pro mountain stage winners) need disc brakes?

You could make a case for amateur riders weighing >90kg on long steep descents having an advantage in that they are less likely to heat the rim excessively and blow their front tire off. But that's hardly a sizeable market.

Jmuzz
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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby Jmuzz » Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:36 pm

Probably won't be a huge switch until the next Dura Ace, which should have weight parrity, possibly even lighter when they work out that pro race bikes are fine with half the current sizing.
By that stage teams will have their budgets aligned for new wheels and frames.

Current size has been imported from mountainbike but it's huge overkill for race bikes who are going full speed descent and can throw away disc and pads after a single descent.

Regular people need bigger long lasting brakes, but they will want to shave it down as much as possible at top level which means some questionable disc braking will probably hit the roads to satisfy production requirements.
Unless UCI head it off by setting some minimum disc and pads size formula.

I can't picture any way that they won't all go disc, just because that's the "upgrade" the industry wants to sell to obsolete all the old models, marketing and money.

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andrewjcw
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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby andrewjcw » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:43 am

https://cyclingtips.com/2018/06/trial-o ... cing-2018/

The timing of this announcement coincides with the 2018 Tour de France, where it’s expected a number of brands will reveal new 2019 disc-equipped road bikes. With (unconfirmed) rumours circling that a few large teams will exclusively commit to the use of disc brakes in 2019, the UCI’s announcement should come with little surprise.

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MichaelB
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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby MichaelB » Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:31 pm

andrewjcw wrote:https://cyclingtips.com/2018/06/trial-over-uci-authorise-disc-brake-usage-in-road-racing-2018/

The timing of this announcement coincides with the 2018 Tour de France, where it’s expected a number of brands will reveal new 2019 disc-equipped road bikes. With (unconfirmed) rumours circling that a few large teams will exclusively commit to the use of disc brakes in 2019, the UCI’s announcement should come with little surprise.


OH NO !!!!

The world will end !!!

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Comedian
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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby Comedian » Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:45 pm

MichaelB wrote:
andrewjcw wrote:https://cyclingtips.com/2018/06/trial-over-uci-authorise-disc-brake-usage-in-road-racing-2018/

The timing of this announcement coincides with the 2018 Tour de France, where it’s expected a number of brands will reveal new 2019 disc-equipped road bikes. With (unconfirmed) rumours circling that a few large teams will exclusively commit to the use of disc brakes in 2019, the UCI’s announcement should come with little surprise.


OH NO !!!!

The world will end !!!

Just out of interest, when do you think the first TDF will be won by someone on a disc brake road bike?

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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby jasonc » Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:52 pm

Comedian wrote:Just out of interest, when do you think the first TDF will be won by someone on a disc brake road bike?

2020
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andrewjcw
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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby andrewjcw » Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:04 pm

Would not surprise me at all to see rim brakes disappear from the pro tour completely within the next 3-4 years.

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biker jk
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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby biker jk » Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:13 pm

2018 may well be the last opportunity for a rim brake bike to win the TdF.

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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby Jmuzz » Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:35 pm

Comedian wrote:Just out of interest, when do you think the first TDF will be won by someone on a disc brake road bike?


There are only a few riders/teams considered contenders.
So the first year their team bike sponsor makes them go disc will be the year.

2020 will be the next Dura Ace year won't it?
Going to be a big push for every Shimano sponsored team to be on new model disc that year so the shock will be if that's not a disc year.
SRAM and others might sort themselves out before then, but doesn't seem likely.

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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby Duck! » Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:42 pm

Jmuzz wrote:Current size has been imported from mountainbike but it's huge overkill for race bikes who are going full speed descent and can throw away disc and pads after a single descent.

Regular people need bigger long lasting brakes, but they will want to shave it down as much as possible at top level which means some questionable disc braking will probably hit the roads to satisfy production requirements.
Unless UCI head it off by setting some minimum disc and pads size formula.

Smaller rotors introduce problems with heat management, which increases the risk of brake malfunction in demanding situations - big descents with a lot of corners for instance. Many early disc-braked roadies were fitted with 140mm rotors, which tame the absolute braking power a bit, but can be prone to suffering overheating, mostly manifested as brake fade, which is a reduction in the friction of the braking surfaces. 160mm rotors - specified as standard by UCI - are better able to deal with heat, as the greater surface area is able to shed it at a faster rate than the 140mm discs, which ultimately makes them safer brakes, even though they're also a bit more powerful.

You will never see brake components that need to be thrown away after a single descent. Firstly that's counter-productive if the rider has to stop to change bikes after every descent, but secondly absolute brake power is limited by what the tyres can put to the ground, and modern production brakes of all types are pushing that limit in most situations (but not so much rim brakes on carbon in the wet). The key difference with discs, especially hydraulics, is they make application of the available power much more consistent and controllable in all conditions.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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trailgumby
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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby trailgumby » Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:25 pm

OK, so they've standardised on 160mm. Any other standards applicable such as axles? I confess I stopped monitoring this thread when I got bored with hearing the sky was falling, almost entirely from those who've never used the technology. ;)

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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby Duck! » Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:14 pm

Pretty sure they determined 12mm through-axles as well. I haven't followed the saga in the deepest detail, but assume there is nothing to stop teams/manufacturers doing other things, but that will of course preclude them from neutral service availability.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby Comedian » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:44 am

Ok, when will a disc brake bike WIN the tdf.

- Jason C 2020
- AndrewJCW vague but predicts a total disc field by 2022.
- BikerJK 2019
- jmuzz with I think the most logical reasoning 2020

Noted No comments
- TG
- Duck.

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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby Jmuzz » Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:29 am

Wheel manufacturers could play an even bigger part than groupset I guess.

Most wheels are still being designed with rim braking needs in mind, but there are ways disc allows them to change when they don't need to deal with the clamping forces on the rim, don't need a flat rim surface, can perhaps flex/deform more.

Some new concept may come out which makes disc rims really desirable. Something like a dimpled golfball or spiraling surface being more aero. Rim flexing out at the road contact patch to get benefits of wider tyre while the rest of the profile is an aero 23. More rim flex for more shock absorbtion allowing for lower profile lighter rubber.
Who knows what, new inventions are new inventions and unpredictable except to the geniuses who invent them. But disc allows a whole lot of new concepts which were previously impossible when rim brake had to be considered.

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MichaelB
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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby MichaelB » Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:30 pm

Meh, doesn't worry me when someone wins a GT or week stage race on discs. Wont change what I ride.

I'm already ahead of the pack !!

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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby trailgumby » Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:33 pm

Comedian wrote:Noted No comments
- TG
- Duck.

Lost my enthusiasm for the TdF when Sky went Postal. Haven't watched it for a few years. I get everything I need to know about it by reading Your Investment Property magazine. :lol:

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Alex Simmons/RST
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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:36 am

A better question is when will the first win on a disk braked bike be as a result of using disk brakes?

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g-boaf
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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby g-boaf » Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:24 am

CKinnard wrote:Why does any sub 70kg rider (most pro mountain stage winners) need disc brakes?

You could make a case for amateur riders weighing >90kg on long steep descents having an advantage in that they are less likely to heat the rim excessively and blow their front tire off. But that's hardly a sizeable market.


I suspect that most people who have pretty decent bikes already probably won't upgrade to disc brakes untill they absolutely have to.

I'm in that sub-70kg (actually sub-60kg) group so disc brakes aren't necessary for me. The brakes I have on the bike already are massively powerful anyway.

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andrewjcw
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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby andrewjcw » Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:54 am

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:A better question is when will the first win on a disk braked bike be as a result of using disk brakes?


Interesting idea.

Now try the same sentence but with 'carbon frame', 'electronic shifting' or '11 speed cassette'. Funnily enough out of all of them my money would be on disk brakes as being the one where in a 1/1000 scenario where it could actually make a difference.

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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby Jmuzz » Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:43 am

Disc won't help anyone win.
It's the sponsor manufacturers who will push them onto it because that is what sells new frames, levers and wheels.

Their marketing guys will be given a mission to make rim brakes uncool and even encourage them to be considered the unsafe option.

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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby RobertL » Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:48 pm

CKinnard wrote:Why does any sub 70kg rider (most pro mountain stage winners) need disc brakes?


Not that it makes much difference, but if we're talking about the pro riders, then you have to consider the mountain stage losers as well as the winners. So you're looking at 80kg or maybe 85kg (max) sprinters descending those same hills.

All of whom are still lighter than most amateurs, to be sure.
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g-boaf
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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby g-boaf » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:55 pm

RobertL wrote:
CKinnard wrote:Why does any sub 70kg rider (most pro mountain stage winners) need disc brakes?


Not that it makes much difference, but if we're talking about the pro riders, then you have to consider the mountain stage losers as well as the winners. So you're looking at 80kg or maybe 85kg (max) sprinters descending those same hills.

All of whom are still lighter than most amateurs, to be sure.


Those big sprinters aren't riding the brakes all the way down the descent - they know how to descend safely, even at massive speeds. I rode with people last year who were heavier than I am, they had carbon wheels, rim brakes on their bikes and were doing very steep descents (multiple ones per day) without problem. Those wheels survived without melting and they all got to the end of the stages safely.

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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby Thoglette » Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:10 pm

Jmuzz wrote:Their marketing guys have been on a mission to make rim brakes uncool and even encourage them to be considered the unsafe option.

There, fixed it for you :mrgreen:
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CKinnard
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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby CKinnard » Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:46 pm

One of the main reasons I'd consider disc brakes is to accommodate wider tires >28mm.
I don't know of any side pull brakes that take them.
I presume some center pull brakes would. What's everyone's view/experience with rim brakes for wider tires?

GBoaf, I had no idea you are so light (compact!), a big advantage fitting into Italian super cars!

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Mububban
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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby Mububban » Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:01 pm

Jmuzz wrote:Disc won't help anyone win.
It's the sponsor manufacturers who will push them onto it because that is what sells new frames, levers and wheels.

Their marketing guys will be given a mission to make rim brakes uncool and even encourage them to be considered the unsafe option.


Were the same arguments employed when cars moved away from drum brakes and onto disc brakes? Drums are good enough, no problems, why bother etc etc?
Once disc brakes on cars were standard, did people romanticise "the good old days" for a certain period, before thinking changed and now anyone using inferior technology would be seen as crazy?

Once the weight penalty is sorted out or brought within a whisker, then disc brakes will be better in every aspect for their purpose - stopping a bike reliably and repeatedly in all weather and road conditions.

If you put any faith in GCN's tests, they found the following.

All tests done at 40kmh with SRAM rim brakes vs discs:
Dry weather - good road surface - same distance.
Dry weather - gravel - discs 2m better.
Wet weather - poor road - discs 3m better.
Very wet weather - discs 7m better.

Another test, 105 rim brake vs Dura-Ace discs in dry weather, discs stopped 70cm quicker.

All that said, if life hadn't intervened, my N+1 would likely have been rim brakes with carbon rims as it would be my fair weather bike. I'd keep the current disc bike for commuting and when the weather turns bad, because I specifically like doing hill rides, and only having one bike and descending on wet carbon rims does not appeal to me.
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