UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

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kb
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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby kb » Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:08 pm

Sharkey wrote:Personally I think we should have stuck with this:

Image

Since then it's just been bike companies bringing out new things we dont't really need to get us to buy more bikes.

Just got one of those (more or less) for 18 month daughter :-)
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silentC
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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby silentC » Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:31 am

Sharkey wrote:Personally I think we should have stuck with this:

Image

Since then it's just been bike companies bringing out new things we dont't really need to get us to buy more bikes.


Have you any idea how much those things cost? I have seen one in the storeroom of a bike shop in Sydney and he told me what it was insured for. You could buy a garage full of bikes for half the price!
"If your next bike does not have disc brakes, the bike after that certainly will"
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Thoglette
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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby Thoglette » Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:06 pm

Meanwhile, a mostly balanced piece from Jan Heine on the topic of the brakes in this year's tour.
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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby MichaelB » Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:29 pm

Thoglette wrote:Meanwhile, a mostly balanced piece from Jan Heine on the topic of the brakes in this year's tour.


Yep, and from an engineering point, this makes sense.....

And many riders find that rim brakes offer superior feel: The brake lever is directly connected to the rim via a cable, rather than having the feedback dulled by the wind-up of the spokes and by hydraulic fluid.


Not. It's both right & wrong.

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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby Jmuzz » Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:38 pm

I wonder whether the next generation of disc will make the rotor a quick swap floating part?
Neutral wheels wouldn't have a rotor, it would be a quick toolless swap when fitting wheel so disc stays with the bike.
It handles the issues with rotor alignment.

That hot swap disc hub cap may also allow the wheels to be rim compatible, the hub piece could have a discless thinner version.
The hub system would also allow for non standardized axle width and length since the bikes adaptors convert the standard wheel.

SRAM teams aren't going to want to see Shimano distinctive disc designs running on their bike, so that's a case for keeping disc seperate to wheel.

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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby Comedian » Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:29 pm

MichaelB wrote:
Thoglette wrote:Meanwhile, a mostly balanced piece from Jan Heine on the topic of the brakes in this year's tour.


Yep, and from an engineering point, this makes sense.....

And many riders find that rim brakes offer superior feel: The brake lever is directly connected to the rim via a cable, rather than having the feedback dulled by the wind-up of the spokes and by hydraulic fluid.


Not. It's both right & wrong.

I note that you excluded a couple of lines from your paragraph snip...

So why did the racers use rim brakes when their sponsors wanted them to use discs? If discs were superior, racers would have used them, especially in the mountains. After all, a real advantage on the many descents of this year’s Tour would have outweighed the relatively small risk of losing time due to a wheel change.

The answer is simple: Really good rim brakes stop just as well as even the best disc brakes. And many riders find that rim brakes offer superior feel: The brake lever is directly connected to the rim via a cable, rather than having the feedback dulled by the wind-up of the spokes and by hydraulic fluid. It’s refreshing that even today, where bike racing has become big business, winning races still is more important than pleasing sponsors.


I'm pretty sure I've been saying this all along. Good rim brakes work really well. This year has shown it - if you have serious aspirations of winning the TDF - you'll probably steer clear of a disc brake bike if you have a choice.

I would never say never to a disc brake bike winning the TDF - but I really don't think it will be for some time, and I think those pesky high performance rim brakes are going to be mucking up the marketing copy for a while.

I don't expect the manufacturers will really care - once they've sold most people a disc bike or two they can sell them a rim bike. "feel how well it handles and rides.. feel how light it is! It climbs like a dream! Look the best climbers at the TDF ride them. Buy Now!"

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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby warthog1 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:34 pm

Thoglette wrote:Meanwhile, a mostly balanced piece from Jan Heine on the topic of the brakes in this year's tour.


I wonder how true this bit is?
As the race continued, most racers quietly switched back to rim brakes. The yellow jersey contenders had used rim brakes from the beginning. Why?

The racers were concerned about flats. Through axles require extra time during wheel changes. Worse, the inevitable manufacturing tolerances change the alignment of the disc rotors on different wheels, even if the same model of hub is used. Unless the disc calipers are adjusted, the new wheel’s rotor will rub. (We realized this during our most recent tire tests, where we thought we could speed up the changes between different wheel sizes, but had to adjust the disc brake calipers after every run.)

BMC Racing found a work-around solution to the problem: When a rider flats, they don’t change wheels, but the entire bike. However, this also means they no longer can use neutral support. Most other teams weren’t willing to run that risk.


It rings true to me. His waffle about brake feel does not.
Here is a sport where, unlike cycling, braking is decisive. One finger and back wheel off the ground. He doesn't appear to be struggling with feel. :idea:

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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby warthog1 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:41 pm

Comedian wrote:
MichaelB wrote:
Thoglette wrote:Meanwhile, a mostly balanced piece from Jan Heine on the topic of the brakes in this year's tour.


Yep, and from an engineering point, this makes sense.....

And many riders find that rim brakes offer superior feel: The brake lever is directly connected to the rim via a cable, rather than having the feedback dulled by the wind-up of the spokes and by hydraulic fluid.


Not. It's both right & wrong.

I note that you excluded a couple of lines from your paragraph snip...

So why did the racers use rim brakes when their sponsors wanted them to use discs? If discs were superior, racers would have used them, especially in the mountains. After all, a real advantage on the many descents of this year’s Tour would have outweighed the relatively small risk of losing time due to a wheel change.

The answer is simple: Really good rim brakes stop just as well as even the best disc brakes. And many riders find that rim brakes offer superior feel: The brake lever is directly connected to the rim via a cable, rather than having the feedback dulled by the wind-up of the spokes and by hydraulic fluid. It’s refreshing that even today, where bike racing has become big business, winning races still is more important than pleasing sponsors.


I'm pretty sure I've been saying this all along. Good rim brakes work really well. This year has shown it - if you have serious aspirations of winning the TDF - you'll probably steer clear of a disc brake bike if you have a choice.

I would never say never to a disc brake bike winning the TDF - but I really don't think it will be for some time, and I think those pesky high performance rim brakes are going to be mucking up the marketing copy for a while.

I don't expect the manufacturers will really care - once they've sold most people a disc bike or two they can sell them a rim bike. "feel how well it handles and rides.. feel how light it is! It climbs like a dream! Look the best climbers at the TDF ride them. Buy Now!"


It remains a garbage paragraph. The bloke really appears clueless in many ways.
I don't think any would argue rim brakes are even remotely close to discs in the wet.
The stupid manufacturers need to sort out a universal size and fitment that doesn't affect wheel changes and brake drag if they want to bring them into the peleton universally.

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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby Thoglette » Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:23 pm

warthog1 wrote:Here is a sport where, unlike cycling, braking is decisive.

You rest Jan's case.
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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby Comedian » Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:36 pm

Thoglette wrote:
warthog1 wrote:Here is a sport where, unlike cycling, braking is decisive.

You rest Jan's case.

And from bike snob! :mrgreen:

https://www.outsideonline.com/2330416/praise-wonderfully-retro-bike-tech

Rim Brakes
Rim brakes versus disc brakes? Please. That debate is sooo 2016. Anyway, they’re riding discs in the Tour de France now and as of yet nobody has lost a limb to a hot rotor, so clearly they’re here to stay.

Still, it would be a huge loss for cycling if the disc brake were to take over completely. Instead, we should strive for a state of peaceful coexistence, because the humble rim brake—be it cantilever, linear pull, or caliper—is a sublimely simple yet profoundly effective bit of technology that should always be an option for the rider who puts ease of maintenance first. There are very few situations in which a properly adjusted rim brake won’t provide you with all the stopping power you need and then some. Plus, they make for faster wheel changes, they’re easier to travel with, and you’ve always got an unobstructed view of the current state of your brake pads.

Most importantly, rim brakes don’t always work that great with carbon rims, which discourages you from wasting money on carbon rims.

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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby biker jk » Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:54 pm

Just a quick note that both the Men's U 23 and Women's Elite road races at the recent UCI World Championships were won on disc brakes.

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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby singlespeedscott » Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:17 am

biker jk wrote:Just a quick note that both the Men's U 23 and Women's Elite road races at the recent UCI World Championships were won on disc brakes.

Yet all the other events where won using standard rim caliper brakes, proving the point that disc brakes are no better for racing, just different.
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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby find_bruce » Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:43 am

singlespeedscott wrote:Yet all the other events where won using standard rim caliper brakes, proving the point that disc brakes are no better for racing, just different.
No no no AVDB won by more than 3 minutes so discs must be really good :wink:

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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby madmacca » Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:43 pm

Comedian wrote:
MichaelB wrote:
Thoglette wrote:Meanwhile, a mostly balanced piece from Jan Heine on the topic of the brakes in this year's tour.


Yep, and from an engineering point, this makes sense.....

And many riders find that rim brakes offer superior feel: The brake lever is directly connected to the rim via a cable, rather than having the feedback dulled by the wind-up of the spokes and by hydraulic fluid.


Not. It's both right & wrong.

I note that you excluded a couple of lines from your paragraph snip...

So why did the racers use rim brakes when their sponsors wanted them to use discs? If discs were superior, racers would have used them, especially in the mountains. After all, a real advantage on the many descents of this year’s Tour would have outweighed the relatively small risk of losing time due to a wheel change.

The answer is simple: Really good rim brakes stop just as well as even the best disc brakes. And many riders find that rim brakes offer superior feel: The brake lever is directly connected to the rim via a cable, rather than having the feedback dulled by the wind-up of the spokes and by hydraulic fluid. It’s refreshing that even today, where bike racing has become big business, winning races still is more important than pleasing sponsors.


I'm pretty sure I've been saying this all along. Good rim brakes work really well. This year has shown it - if you have serious aspirations of winning the TDF - you'll probably steer clear of a disc brake bike if you have a choice.

I would never say never to a disc brake bike winning the TDF - but I really don't think it will be for some time, and I think those pesky high performance rim brakes are going to be mucking up the marketing copy for a while.


It is widely acknowledged that in dry conditions, there is indeed little difference in braking quality.

Given there were no wet descents in this year's Tour, braking quality wasn't an issue. If someone steals 20s+ on a wet descent with discs in the future, then you might see a change. Like teams make a disc/rim decision each day based on the weather forecast.

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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby Thoglette » Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:05 pm

madmacca wrote: If someone steals 20s+ on a wet descent with discs in the future, then you might see a change.

That would require one hell of a descent - technical to the degree that discs provided 20s of "confidence" or there's 20s of "unexpected" braking.

It'd be a very interesting stage. I'd stay up to watch that.
'
Part of the problem at the moment is that most of the peleton have done most of the course many, many times. Certainly the interesting bits.

I think discs would come into their own in an unsealed, technical, hilly section. With rain. We need more sections like that. (I love the pave and Strade Bianche (sp?) sections)
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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby Comedian » Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:39 pm

Thoglette wrote:
madmacca wrote: If someone steals 20s+ on a wet descent with discs in the future, then you might see a change.

That would require one hell of a descent - technical to the degree that discs provided 20s of "confidence" or there's 20s of "unexpected" braking.

It'd be a very interesting stage. I'd stay up to watch that.
'
Part of the problem at the moment is that most of the peleton have done most of the course many, many times. Certainly the interesting bits.

I think discs would come into their own in an unsealed, technical, hilly section. With rain. We need more sections like that. (I love the pave and Strade Bianche (sp?) sections)

That's the paradox. For toad racing discs just don't make sense. The pros are all experts at descending. They rarely use the brakes - but if they do they can manage just fine with what they've got. The extra weight means they are slower uphills - and that's where the race is won/lost. Extra complexity with spares makes it a significant risk to run discs for GC contenders. Long tours like the TDF amplify these factors. That's why the few that were in the peloton this year quietly disappeared after the first few days.

So, we're at where we are at. The only riders to use discs at the moment are sprinters. They don't have to go up hills or use the brakes so it doesn't really matter. Plus - if they have a flat and loose a bunch of time they can always hope to pick up tomorrows sprint.

MEH.

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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby human909 » Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:51 pm

So 92 pages to yet again conclude that discs brakes on road bikes are largely a solution looking for a problem....

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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby Mike Ayling » Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:33 am

human909 wrote:So 92 pages to yet again conclude that discs brakes on road bikes are largely a solution looking for a problem....


Don't disagree!

Mike

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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby P!N20 » Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:03 am

Comedian wrote:For toad racing discs just don't make sense.


Couldn't agree more.


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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby Newcastle Dave » Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:12 am

human909 wrote:So 92 pages to yet again conclude that discs brakes on road bikes are largely a solution looking for a problem....

No, 92 pages to conclude that except in a few limited circumstances disc brakes are no advantage in RACING.
However for those of us who don't race (and never will), who are not overly concerned with a few grams here or there (at over 95kg it's really not going to make a difference) they have multiple advantages.
From a selfish point of view, I am all for the manufacturers pushing them on their race teams, it just means they will get even better and lighter for the rest of us

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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby Mububban » Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:55 pm

P!N20 wrote:
Comedian wrote:For toad racing discs just don't make sense.


Couldn't agree more.




Hahaha, well spotted :D
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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby P!N20 » Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:12 pm

Mububban wrote:Hahaha, well spotted :D


Far more entertaining than pro cycling, too.

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Re: UCI expected to approve Road Disc Brakes for 2016

Postby Comedian » Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:52 pm

P!N20 wrote:
Comedian wrote:For toad racing discs just don't make sense.


Couldn't agree more.


It appears I've been caught on the hop. :mrgreen:

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