Punishment pass

InnerCityBoy
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Re: Punishment pass

Postby InnerCityBoy » Thu May 05, 2016 3:52 pm

InTheWoods wrote:Its not that hard to do a "calibration" shot by measuring out the distances (make a grid) using chalk on a flat area like your driveway, this should negate any fish eye issues.
Does that actually work? I mean, have the police and / or a court accepted a home-made 'calibration' of this nature? I could see several flaws ... you need to know how far the vehicle was from you to 'place' it on your grid, which would be a guess ... have you bumped the camera angle (up/down) since the calibration was made; is the camera pointing dead straight; were you steering perfectly straight or veering slightly ... all of which would render the grid invalid.

A more accurate (although more time-consuming) method would be to return to the scene of the 'crime' and measure the width of the road, get the width of the car (looking it up via something like the red book), measuring the width of your bike or your shoulders and then using maths to work out the passing distance. Using the video to 'place' the vehicle relative to the centre line. In this way, you should be able to get something +/- 20cm.

Of course, if a home-made calibration is being accepted, then yes seems a lot easier but it strikes me as something that wouldn't stand up if challenged.

And for you poor folks in Vic where there is no MPD law, then even proving the driver was <1m away doesn't seem to matter ... !

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outnabike
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Re: Punishment pass

Postby outnabike » Thu May 05, 2016 4:54 pm

I haven't been using the camera grid for my cameras. The head of the Springvale Road patrol, told me bluntly that it was of no relevance to anything I showed him.
It was put to me that if they prosecuted a case, those calibrations wouldn't even be put to the judge. It is to him, an unproven piece of info that the police would have to back up in court.
He told me of course that I was free to prosecute these drivers my self, but they would not. End of story. He asked if I had ever done that and of course I had not.
He went on to advise that under cross examination as to the exact science, the proof of calibration etc, the regularity of the calibration,
I would not have a leg to stand on.
In short I am left with the assumption that they say my camera info would scrutinized as closely as the cameras of the police as to the veracity of the alleged distances etc. I can see the reality of what they say I'm afraid.
It all might be true or bull dust, but I am presenting in Vic through the Police Commissioners office. It is their play pen so to speak and so I leave off the calibrations even though the do make the case for how close the car is. Also I know the lack of concern by the police in Vic is not going to be overcome with Video.
My latest video where I was actually hit, went to a detective that I had helped with a couple of different cases. He had told me on other occasions to go to him but I didn't want to wear out my welcome. I foolishly thought the road patrol would eventually come around. No such luck.

This was a different serious case, and so I will see if his dept has more teeth than the road patrols.
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jules21
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Re: Punishment pass

Postby jules21 » Thu May 05, 2016 5:25 pm

if you don't get a charge laid, you should go to the media. you can do it anonymously if you don't want your name up in lights.

it would be embarrassing for the police to have to publicly explain why that driver wasn't charged. easier when just dealing with you directly.

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Re: Punishment pass

Postby human909 » Thu May 05, 2016 5:44 pm

outnabike wrote:I haven't been using the camera grid for my cameras. The head of the Springvale Road patrol, told me bluntly that it was of no relevance to anything I showed him.
It was put to me that if they prosecuted a case, those calibrations wouldn't even be put to the judge. It is to him, an unproven piece of info that the police would have to back up in court.
He told me of course that I was free to prosecute these drivers my self, but they would not. End of story. He asked if I had ever done that and of course I had not.
He went on to advise that under cross examination as to the exact science, the proof of calibration etc, the regularity of the calibration,
I would not have a leg to stand on.
In short I am left with the assumption that they say my camera info would scrutinized as closely as the cameras of the police as to the veracity of the alleged distances etc. I can see the reality of what they say I'm afraid.
They are spinning you a pile of hogwash. The camera is a supporting evidence to the primary witness. YOU.

Furthermore most of the time you can work out that insufficient space is given simply based on lane width.

Time and time again we've seen police make up BS because when it comes down to it, they can't be bothered perusing the matter.

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Re: Punishment pass

Postby InnerCityBoy » Thu May 05, 2016 7:19 pm

outnabike wrote:... He went on to advise that under cross examination as to the exact science, the proof of calibration etc, the regularity of the calibration, I would not have a leg to stand on. ...
Yes, I would (unfortunately) agree with him on this, I don't think it would stand up either.

Have there been any attempts by Victorian cycling groups to engage the police via their community liaison officer (I think that's what they're called) and seek guidance as to how cyclists can get better support from the police regarding these incidents? That is, show them the footage and the response (or lack of response) received, and ask them to give guidance on what type of incident they are prepared to actually act on and the standard / form of evidence they need?

It might be that the response is 'we won't ever prosecute for a near pass' due to the lack of an MPD law; which is kinda what the police who turned up on your door said from memory Outnabike. Which leads back to the core need (in Victoria, at least) for greater advocacy to get a MPD law in place.

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outnabike
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Re: Punishment pass

Postby outnabike » Thu May 05, 2016 7:23 pm

jules21 wrote:if you don't get a charge laid, you should go to the media. you can do it anonymously if you don't want your name up in lights.

it would be embarrassing for the police to have to publicly explain why that driver wasn't charged. easier when just dealing with you directly.
Yep tried 3 AW. Two calls, a letter and an email. Not even a reply. All they did was add me to their advertising list and in the finish I added them to the deleted automatically files. And that was phoning up whilst they were talking about bicycles as well.
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InTheWoods
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Re: Punishment pass

Postby InTheWoods » Thu May 26, 2016 4:23 pm

InnerCityBoy wrote:
InTheWoods wrote:Its not that hard to do a "calibration" shot by measuring out the distances (make a grid) using chalk on a flat area like your driveway, this should negate any fish eye issues.
Does that actually work? I mean, have the police and / or a court accepted a home-made 'calibration' of this nature? I could see several flaws ... you need to know how far the vehicle was from you to 'place' it on your grid, which would be a guess ... have you bumped the camera angle (up/down) since the calibration was made; is the camera pointing dead straight; were you steering perfectly straight or veering slightly ... all of which would render the grid invalid.

A more accurate (although more time-consuming) method would be to return to the scene of the 'crime' and measure the width of the road, get the width of the car (looking it up via something like the red book), measuring the width of your bike or your shoulders and then using maths to work out the passing distance. Using the video to 'place' the vehicle relative to the centre line. In this way, you should be able to get something +/- 20cm.

Of course, if a home-made calibration is being accepted, then yes seems a lot easier but it strikes me as something that wouldn't stand up if challenged.

And for you poor folks in Vic where there is no MPD law, then even proving the driver was <1m away doesn't seem to matter ... !
Its worked enough that the police asked where my calibration lines had gone when I submitted one without them.

The lines are not intended to show a precise distance, I don't claim they do, and nor is it necessary. They make it quite obvious when you have been passed at about 0.5m and nowhere near 1m. It is not required to prove the pass was 53.23cm vs 46.86cm, only that it was beyond reasonable doubt less than 1m. The fact that it is not precise would only be relevant if you are complaining about a pass say >75cm <100cm. The closer the pass, the more accurate the lines are too, as angles such as not riding in a precisely straight line have a much lower impact on accuracy compared to a 1 meter pass.

You also forget that close passes only have to go to court if they are contested. People are probably less likely to take it to court when they see that they were way closer than 1m.

It would be easy enough to prove in court that a 30cm pass according to the calibration lines was less than 1m (all that is required), for example by measuring the road. It just gives the police something to start with as all the different camera lenses can make comparisons quite difficult. I know 1m on my mobius+defy is pretty much the bottom left corner, on jasonc's fly6+his bike, I believe that is well under 1m.

My camera has a fixed mount so no I haven't bumped it up or down. Plus the calibration lines include my back wheel to confirm it is in the same position on the same angle.

Re how to "place" the vehicle on the grid I think you misunderstand it. This is simple as the grid is on the road surface, so where the vehicles tyres are on the grid "places" them. And the distance from a particular model's tyre sides to the edge of the mirror can be measured easily. My grid makes for a generic 10cm allowance for this, which is very conservative.

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Re: Punishment pass

Postby outnabike » Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:47 pm

A detective I have been working with on a few incidence re burglaries, arson etc, that I videoed came up my driveway asking if my home drive way camera might have caught 4 young blokes running up the road. I said I think so and remembered them running. Kids do not run any where these days and I even remembered the time I actually saw them.
He knew of a few of my cycling incidences and asked how I was going with the police enquirers. I told him of a few and how no matter what, I am always to blame in their eyes, how every cop at my door is a cyclist and yet they wouldn't ride on the roads.

He told me to give them to him and he might get some thing done, but I didn't as it would only stir the pot and it might not turn out as well for him as he thought. I have been dealing with the head of the Greater Dandenong Road patrol after all.

Well a month later I had the incident where I was actually side swiped, and though it was a hit and run, I managed to not get pushed off the bike. So i typed up a letter bade a DVD and sent it direct to this detective at Narre Warren police marked in his name. After all he did tell me to, he is a detective, this is a serious offense; a hit and run.
So two months went buy and he hadn't spoken to me, so I emailed him saying I was a bit disappointed. He rang me back the next day.

What he did was take my package and simply place it in the file regarding the boys he had been chasing, as he thought that was what the video was about.
I have lost all faith in the man. This is a detective that received a registered package (cost me $5-00) with a clear letter of explanation in it. He didn't even read the letter, the DVD he didn't bother to watch, and it didn't see the light of day till I got back to him.

So its all ok now right? Nope....Though he had said HE would look int it, his boss said it happened one Klm out of his area, so they will pass it on to the traffic branch. :D

I am overwhelmed with the efforts to which the police have come to my assistance after telling me to get in touch with them and bypass the road patrol. Now the DVD incident is two month gone and they will probably forget about it. This is another complaint I get regularly, by the time it gets to them the driver has forgotten about it. The DVD of the event is not considered it seems.
All good fun. :)
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il padrone
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Re: Punishment pass

Postby il padrone » Wed Jun 08, 2016 5:18 pm

human909 wrote:
outnabike wrote:I haven't been using the camera grid for my cameras. The head of the Springvale Road patrol, told me bluntly that it was of no relevance to anything I showed him.
It was put to me that if they prosecuted a case, those calibrations wouldn't even be put to the judge. It is to him, an unproven piece of info that the police would have to back up in court.
He told me of course that I was free to prosecute these drivers my self, but they would not. End of story. He asked if I had ever done that and of course I had not.
He went on to advise that under cross examination as to the exact science, the proof of calibration etc, the regularity of the calibration,
I would not have a leg to stand on.
In short I am left with the assumption that they say my camera info would scrutinized as closely as the cameras of the police as to the veracity of the alleged distances etc. I can see the reality of what they say I'm afraid.
They are spinning you a pile of hogwash. The camera is a supporting evidence to the primary witness. YOU.

Furthermore most of the time you can work out that insufficient space is given simply based on lane width.

Time and time again we've seen police make up BS because when it comes down to it, they can't be bothered perusing the matter.
You've got the key point to it right there.

Ultimately the answer to this whole problem is something that must lead on from the 1m rule (and is far far easier to determine), and that is - for any multi-lane road - a 'change lane to pass' rule. It should apply to any motor vehicle overtaking a bicycle. It is just a simple extension and clarification of what is implicitly required under Rule 146 (everyone seems to want to twist that rule to say it somehow does not apply when overtaking a cyclist, or that an overtake of a cyclist is excluded by the rule, which it is not*).

This should be a strong campaign which needs to be pursued by bicycle advocacy groups, nation-wide.


*
Victorian Road Rules 2009 wrote:146 Driving within a single marked lane or line of traffic
(1) A driver on a multi-lane road must drive so the driver's vehicle is completely in a marked lane, unless the driver is—
(a) entering a part of the road of one kind from a part of the road of another kind (for example, moving to or from a service road or a shoulder of the road); or
(b) entering or leaving the road; or
(c) moving from one marked lane to another marked lane; or
(d) avoiding an obstruction; or
(e) obeying a traffic control device applying to the marked lane; or
(f) permitted to drive in more than one marked lane under another provision of these Rules.
Note: 1. a bicycle is part of traffic, not an obstruction (by the road rules definition);
2. moving from one lane to another would require a complete move, not a lane-split. But a 'change lane to pass' rule would define this fully.
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Re: Punishment pass

Postby ft_critical » Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:52 pm

0620 I ride in the centre lane of a significant 3 lane road, alone, downhill, 50kmh. I am in the centre lane because I intend to join the right turn lane in 1km. I could have returned to the left lane after passing left-turning traffic. Beep from behind. The beeper, a white Toyota traytop, is now beside me in the right lane, windows up, a man in a dark hoody is yelling at me, I can't hear him. I yell back that I am allowed to ride here in this lane. He doesn't hear me.
He accelerates, pulls into my lane in front of me and slams on the brakes locking up the vehicle. The driver is a renderer by trade. I know this because the company name "XXX Rendering" is stamped into the back of the tray and a concrete mixer is bobbing around unsecured in that tray.
I avoid the back of his vehicle by changing lanes.
He accelerates, now in the centre lane, until he is beside me and slams on the brakes, again locking up the vehicle. Only this was a far more dangerous manoeuvre as he chooses to steer hard left at the same time. To avoid hitting him, as the move by the renderer is so violent and rapid, I am forced brake hard and move left into the gutter. It is at this point that I realise I am in danger and make sure to remain behind the vehicle. He accelerates away, slows, lines me up and repeats his second manoeuvre. Brake, lock up, steer into cyclist.
You can't slow a road bike from 50 as fast a a white Hilux traytop can. So I have to use the gutter and bunny hop one of those cyclist killer drain covers.

Anyway as you can tell by my writing this, I didn't die.
He drove off. I caught him at the lights but did not engage in a discussion with the driver on what I thought of him. As I sit here this continues to seem sensible.

I reported it to the Police as I had his rego, company name and a clear visual of him. The Police explained nothing would likely happen to him, which of course I knew. None-the-less I do want them to at least talk to him.
Last edited by ft_critical on Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Punishment pass

Postby TheWall » Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:25 pm

Not a good one ft...

As tempting as getting in your own car and pulling the same trick is (Hilux Utes may brake better than bikes but they certainly don't brake better than cars and I may be presuming but I am sure he may not be the driver that allows enough braking room :shock: :D - this idea does have the added benefit of denying him his tool of trade vehicle for s period of time)...I really think the best idea is...

Camera time...

Matt

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ft_critical
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Re: Punishment pass

Postby ft_critical » Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:29 pm

TheWall wrote: Camera time...
I have a camera, but in many, many years of cycling I really have very seldom had a problem. There have been incidents but I think this is the first serious incident when I could have used one.

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il padrone
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Re: Punishment pass

Postby il padrone » Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:41 pm

Company name...... registration..... ??? You are just one step removed from :twisted:

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Re: Punishment pass

Postby ft_critical » Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:48 pm

il padrone wrote:Company name...... registration..... ??? You are just one step removed from :twisted:

Image
Funnily enough no steps required. I have the address, phone too of the self employed... c/o Google.

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Re: Punishment pass

Postby TheWall » Sat Jun 18, 2016 4:30 pm

I would love to get him to come over to tender for the render...of my timber house.

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outnabike
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Re: Punishment pass

Postby outnabike » Sat Jun 18, 2016 5:29 pm

That would be assault with a deadly weapon alright. But no proof. Even with a camera it is hard to get any action, but all of that would have been a beauty to hand in. You have to report it though as they can begin building a file on that animal.
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ft_critical
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Re: Punishment pass

Postby ft_critical » Sun Jun 19, 2016 8:22 am

outnabike wrote:You have to report it though as they can begin building a file
I work for a bank; conduct is a huge focus. What we have learned as we have dug into it is that conduct comes from culture. A way that bad culture forms is by 'stepping over' bad behaviour. Not speaking up is actually reinforcing that the bad behaviour is in fact not bad behaviour and is okay. Speaking up is always the difficult choice versus doing nothing. I think this is the same with behaviour on the road. Even though it is a pain, I have to report it and follow up on it until the police do something about it. Hopefully everyone not stepping over bad behaviour on our roads will build momentum to change attitudes. Cyclists need to demonstrate good behaviour as part of the programme.

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Re: Punishment pass

Postby fat and old » Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:10 pm

You ride around the Dandenong area aye?

After my second weekend of work in the centre (cbd I guess), there's no way in hell I'd ride around there. Way too many people who don't understand written English, nor value human life over the price of milk. I'm serious here....it's a death trap for cyclists.

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outnabike
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Re: Punishment pass

Postby outnabike » Sun Jun 19, 2016 3:25 pm

fat and old wrote:You ride around the Dandenong area aye?

After my second weekend of work in the centre (cbd I guess), there's no way in hell I'd ride around there. Way too many people who don't understand written English, nor value human life over the price of milk. I'm serious here....it's a death trap for cyclists.
Hi fat and old,
Exactly what every cop I speak to tells me. :) I keep asking them "Why then do you keep issuing licenses out like confetti"

So the police know it, and it is a condemnation by them of their own calling, but it is always some one else s department.
Sounds as though it is the license issuing dept that needs to be cycling to work.
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il padrone
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Re: Punishment pass

Postby il padrone » Sun Jun 19, 2016 3:31 pm

outnabike wrote:Exactly what every cop I speak to tells me. :) I keep asking them "Why then do you keep issuing licenses out like confetti"

So the police know it, and it is a condemnation by them of their own calling, but it is always some one else s department.
Sounds as though it is the license issuing dept that needs to be cycling to work.
That is generally done by Vicroads staff nowadays, moreso than the police.
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Re: Punishment pass

Postby skull » Sun Jun 19, 2016 7:26 pm

outnabike wrote:[I keep asking them "Why then do you keep issuing licenses out like confetti".
I have had my licence for around 25 years now, even back then the police didn't issue them but rather a state department. Most definitely not the police issuing them out

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Re: Punishment pass

Postby TheShadow » Sun Jun 19, 2016 7:56 pm

skull wrote:
outnabike wrote:[I keep asking them "Why then do you keep issuing licenses out like confetti".
I have had my licence for around 25 years now, even back then the police didn't issue them but rather a state department. Most definitely not the police issuing them out
Just a few years before you, I got my license at the local police station in the small country town I lived in then. :P Went for a 5 minute drive with a police officer in the family car, just a few blocks away from the station and then back. :) A different time and place, for sure.

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il padrone
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Re: Punishment pass

Postby il padrone » Sun Jun 19, 2016 8:12 pm

My country cousins got their licences that way - they drove with the police officer, around the block. But he well knew that they'd been driving the ute, the tractors, and the header, out on the farm for the past 4-5 years, and even occasionally along the farm lane (public roads).

Even way back then (40 years ago) less than 20% of drivers would have obtained their licence that way. By far most Australians live in the towns and cities, these days getting close to 90%.
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Re: Punishment pass

Postby TheShadow » Sun Jun 19, 2016 8:40 pm

ft_critical wrote:
outnabike wrote:You have to report it though as they can begin building a file
I work for a bank; conduct is a huge focus. What we have learned as we have dug into it is that conduct comes from culture. A way that bad culture forms is by 'stepping over' bad behaviour. Not speaking up is actually reinforcing that the bad behaviour is in fact not bad behaviour and is okay. Speaking up is always the difficult choice versus doing nothing. I think this is the same with behaviour on the road. Even though it is a pain, I have to report it and follow up on it until the police do something about it. Hopefully everyone not stepping over bad behaviour on our roads will build momentum to change attitudes. Cyclists need to demonstrate good behaviour as part of the programme.
You're doing a real act of public service. That guy is clearly on target to hurt someone very badly. Out of control. The police could save themselves a bunch of work if they just phoned him, or went to spoke to him and recommended he calm down. Otherwise the odds are sooner or later, they're going to have to clean up a mess he's made.

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Re: Punishment pass

Postby ft_critical » Mon Jul 11, 2016 6:52 pm

Police called me today. Quite funny really... The renderer indicated that, that morning he had travelled the other direction that morning not using the roads in my report. The police asked how the rego, discription etc was such a match to him? He struggled with this for some time but then indicated that I must have had a vendetta against him from some other road rage incident??? Police gave him a solid warning which meets my expectations. They were very nice. They did say it was a shame I didn't have video otherwise they could have done more.

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