Punishment pass

warthog1
Posts: 7105
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:40 pm

Re: Punishment pass

Postby warthog1 » Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:39 pm

Thoglette wrote:
If it is policy you need to address the politics: your two local members; the minister; the shadow minister and the press.

I am speaking specifically about minimum safe passing legislation and lack thereof in Vic. You are correct with respect to the lack of legislation in Vic. We need to do that and go around BN(V).
Our major cycling "advocacy" organisation in BN(V) is on record as resisting safe minimum distance legislation;

While the Amy Gillett Foundation is busy trying to get a minimum passing distance into Australian law, there are many countries around the world in which such legislation already exists. Twenty-three states in the US require drivers to leave at least three feet (roughly 90cm) when passing, Pennsylvanian drivers are required to leave four feet (1.2m) and drivers in Virginia must leave two feet (60cm). Belgium, France, Portugal and the Canadian province of Nova Scotia all have minimum passing distance laws as well.

But according to Garry Brennan from Government & External Relations at Bicycle Network, the fact these international precedents exist doesn’t mean they’ve been shown to work. While Garry acknowledges that the ‘safe passing distance’ law isn’t working, he says Bicycle Network won’t support the push to introduce a minimum passing distance into law because there’s no evidence such a law will work; that is, that it will increase cyclist safety and, ultimately, reduce the number of cyclists injured and killed on the roads.

“We never really had any problems with the Amy Gillett Foundation’s one-metre campaign but suddenly, one day, it metamorphosed and we’d learned it was now a fixed distance law campaign. We looked at the evidence and we found there were no benefits where [a minimum passing distance law] had been introduced — there’d been no benefits for bike safety.”


I put this apparent lack of evidence to Marilyn Johnson who, in addition to her role at AGF, is a cycling safety researcher at Monash University.

“I think a focus on the lack of evidence doesn’t recognise the lack of funded research in injury prevention to begin with. This is a poorly researched space and drilling down further, cycling is itself under-researched in terms of evaluating road safety programs.

The idea that the idea that there’s going to be a body of evidence we can point to is less likely because cycling safety issues are under-researched.”

To Marilyn it’s less about evidence and more about common sense.

“Evaluation or not, giving that extra bit of space, and drivers knowing that it’s not some space or a little bit of space, but it’s a metre […] is really going to help stop crashes, stop bike riders getting killed and stop them being seriously injured.”

Garry Brennan remains unconvinced:

“Giving cyclists more room is definitely better but [Marilyn Johnson] has missed the critical link: there’s no link between a law and giving cyclists more room. Where the law has been introduced and research has been done, the vehicles are not giving cyclists more room.”

Garry believes that a minimum passing distance law won’t only be ineffective, supporting it would actually be ethically dubious for Bicycle Network.

“For Bicycle Network to support a law which we know is not beneficial would be improper for us to do because we want our members and bike riders to know that if we recommend a change then it’s going to provide the benefits that are claimed. In this case it would be improper for us to pretend that a fixed one-metre law would be beneficial for bike riders when we know that it wouldn’t.”


http://cyclingtips.com.au/2013/12/a-met ... st-safety/

They are still at it;
Under the cosh in Queensland

15 July 2014. Bike riders in the Sunshine State are baffled as they come under intensive heat from the police who are said to be 'throwing the book’ at riders at every opportunity.

Evidence has emerged of a major crack-down by police, who racked up 1344 fines for riders in just three months since Queensland’s new bike safety legislation came into force.

The police have even issued multiple fines to riders for exceeding the speed limit.

The crackdown was apparently orchestrated to coincide with the controversial introduction of the one-metre passing laws.

The Queensland Government introduction of the one metre and one point five metre safe distance passing rules attracted huge publicity, but at the same time the government boosted the fines relating to bike rider offences, in some cases making them three times the previous level.

While the police got busy booking riders, the one metre laws for drivers have hardly been enforced.

In the three months since the rule changes, only four drivers have been fined for breaching the one metre law, and it is understood these drivers could have been fined for overtaking too closely even without the new law in place.

In the same period, four bike riders died on Queensland roads.

Queensland police have defended their actions, saying that that they have conducted major operations to detect one metre law offences, but none were observed.

Riders have accused the government of using the introduction of the one metre law as a smokescreen for a crackdown on cyclists' behaviour.

Ben Wilson, Bicycle Queensland CEO, described the statistics as “bordering on alarming”.

“I don’t know of any other State jurisdiction where police bother to fine riders for going too fast on a short, rural downhill. Police resources are scarce and they should be used where they can deliver a safety benefit to road users."

He said Bicycle Queensland was working with police on the enforcement of the passing rules.

“Evidence from around the world shows that enforcing passing distance laws is a difficult challenge, and Queensland is proving no different”, Mr Wilson said.


https://www.bicyclenetwork.com.au/gener ... igns/2904/

They have the ear of government and act in concert with the RACV in this matter. They need to be shown to be wrong. Outonabike's evidence does that.

User avatar
biker jk
Posts: 6177
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Punishment pass

Postby biker jk » Mon Dec 28, 2015 1:40 pm

Just ask Garry Brennan how many motorists in Victoria have been fined for unsafe passes of cyclists versus breaches of the minimum passing distance law in Queensland.

warthog1
Posts: 7105
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:40 pm

Re: Punishment pass

Postby warthog1 » Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:25 pm

Exactly right :x
If you are passed without being hit then the pass is deemed safe. Doesn't matter if they whoosh past at 80km/h 5cm off your elbow, not hit = safe :roll:

User avatar
outnabike
Posts: 2136
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:53 pm
Location: Melbourne Vic

Re: Punishment pass

Postby outnabike » Mon Dec 28, 2015 11:21 pm

Quote Warthog1,
15 July 2014. Bike riders in the Sunshine State are baffled as they come under intensive heat from the police who are said to be 'throwing the book’ at riders at every opportunity. Unquote.

Dead right, and I am getting that also, with my video submissions. I will give you a tip submit only as much as you need to on the video or you are the subject not the accuser.
I will explain more on that issue with a couple of postmortems on at least two videos I was knocked back on. "I actually get the You are no angel as you did this or that" They say. Then on something as blas'e as alleged riding on a path or a ped walk, (Not proven though) they let go of a person who could easily have taken my life.

Due to now being (allocated) to a different officer I am on good terms with the police, and have a lot more insight into procedure; from a position of the police building a case to actually not waste their time and prosecute dead issues.
I will also go into detail on red light runners and what the police are up against in getting a conviction.
It's pretty clear that they don't proceed against some one unless it is beyond the pail. I get that. I am trying to present my proof of incidents with the incident as being as unquestionable as possible, and take away the negatives.
For exsample I now say "I was riding wide of the cars due to any possibility of the drivers opening a door on me" hence this driver might have thought I was deliberately blocking his road way." Otherwise their thinking may be the same as the accused. "I can see why they close shaved him he is in the middle of the road."

So just trying to allay the perception with an explanation. The police are after all motorists.
Vivente World Randonneur complete with panniers

softy
Posts: 1665
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 3:44 pm

Re: Punishment pass

Postby softy » Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:18 am

Maybe it is a matter of finding a new revenue base because most drivers are keeping to the speed limit. Cyclist have been mostly ignored due to the focus on cars. Now they have jacked the fines and insisting on ID to easy identify, they can make up the gap, of maintain the revenue base.

maybe i am thinking a little negative, but money is money to the government. :(

User avatar
Xplora
Posts: 8272
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2010 12:33 am
Location: TL;DR

Re: Punishment pass

Postby Xplora » Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:38 am

outnabike wrote:Otherwise their thinking may be the same as the accused. "I can see why they close shaved him he is in the middle of the road."

So just trying to allay the perception with an explanation. The police are after all motorists.

If the police are allowed to use personal bias, racism is acceptable. And everyone knows that isn't true. If the police officer is incapable of dispassionate application of the law, they should do something else for a job. Some behaviour is understandable, yet illegal. That's why the law exists, to define certain behaviour and punish it.

This is definitely why I have lost faith in the passing law, it hasn't given better results in the courts. We already had safe passing laws.

softy
Posts: 1665
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 3:44 pm

Re: Punishment pass

Postby softy » Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:51 am

Laws are not equal, and things are not fair, that is life.

laws over shadow others, i travel on the train and the PTA officers always cite the law if you do not have a valid ticket. As it should be......

But i saw an exception the other day, two drunk "local Australians" were on the train, the officers said something to them and they answered, no ticket was show or travel card. The officers just kept walking, when they passed one of the passengers showed the officers the fingers behind their backs.

It appeared to me the consequence of one action was greater than another.

Fair is only an idea of two people happy making an agreement, not what is equal.

User avatar
ColinOldnCranky
Posts: 6098
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:58 pm

Re: Punishment pass

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Tue Dec 29, 2015 11:48 am

softy wrote:Maybe it is a matter of finding a new revenue base because most drivers are keeping to the speed limit. Cyclist have been mostly ignored due to the focus on cars. Now they have jacked the fines and insisting on ID to easy identify, they can make up the gap, of maintain the revenue base.

maybe i am thinking a little negative, but money is money to the government. :(


If they could be bothered they could easily increase that revenue by simply pinging cyclists for the many transgressions of ours that we already commit.

The simply explanation is that increasing the fines looks good in print to a large part of the electorate and costs no effort or money to do so. The bike haters. It's a simple political win and is no different than a lot of other punitive measures not related to cycling that they play with in the public space from time to time.

There is even an optimistic reading which I would not be betting m house on atm. That it may be even be a way of them appeasing the haters at the time that the government does implement some needed improvements like 1 metre or default liability of motorists.
Unchain yourself-Ride a unicycle
Image

warthog1
Posts: 7105
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:40 pm

Re: Punishment pass

Postby warthog1 » Tue Dec 29, 2015 1:58 pm

Xplora wrote:
This is definitely why I have lost faith in the passing law, it hasn't given better results in the courts. We already had safe passing laws.


I have lost faith in your redneck NSW state government and the manner with which they have implemented the passing law in your state. You clearly have a meathead roads minister and he is given a long leash by your populist premier.
The data from Qld, whilst small in number, is showing the minimum distance passing laws are having a good effect on reducing rider mortality which is certainly more important than any court action.
I don't know what you mean by "it hasn't given better results in the courts"?
I know some police have been reluctant to enforce it when presented with video evidence. Is this because of inbuilt bias or ineffectiveness of court prosecution. I'd have thought it a police issued fine that would only end up in the courts should the motorist in question choose to challenge it.

https://www.webcrash.transport.qld.gov. ... dsense.pdf

The current safe passing laws don't work in Vic. If no contact is made the pass is deemed safe, there is zero chance of any punitive action against the driver.

User avatar
Mulger bill
Super Mod
Super Mod
Posts: 29011
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 2:41 pm
Location: Sunbury Vic

Re: Punishment pass

Postby Mulger bill » Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:57 pm

softy wrote:Maybe it is a matter of finding a new revenue base because most drivers are keeping to the speed limit. Cyclist have been mostly ignored due to the focus on cars. Now they have jacked the fines and insisting on ID to easy identify, they can make up the gap, of maintain the revenue base.

maybe i am thinking a little negative, but money is money to the government. :(


Here you go...
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/lat ... sts-204275
Electronic detection and photographic recording for later invoicing. THIS is what modern road safety is all about in Vic. Surprised Dannyboy aint all over this...
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
London Boy 29/12/2011

User avatar
trailgumby
Posts: 13170
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:30 pm
Location: Northern Beaches, Sydney
Contact:

Re: Punishment pass

Postby trailgumby » Tue Dec 29, 2015 7:18 pm

Mulger bill wrote:
softy wrote:Maybe it is a matter of finding a new revenue base because most drivers are keeping to the speed limit. Cyclist have been mostly ignored due to the focus on cars. Now they have jacked the fines and insisting on ID to easy identify, they can make up the gap, of maintain the revenue base.

maybe i am thinking a little negative, but money is money to the government. :(


Here you go...
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/lat ... sts-204275
Electronic detection and photographic recording for later invoicing. THIS is what modern road safety is all about in Vic. Surprised Dannyboy aint all over this...


This is what Garmin should have brought out instead of that useless radar rear view thing. They already have the camera with the ability to overlay a dashboard on the recording from your Edge bike computer. Why not a passing distance and speed from the radar?

User avatar
Xplora
Posts: 8272
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2010 12:33 am
Location: TL;DR

Re: Punishment pass

Postby Xplora » Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:20 am

Good call TG ^^^

User avatar
kb
Posts: 2451
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:22 pm

Re: Punishment pass

Postby kb » Thu Dec 31, 2015 6:16 pm

(OT: and magpie approach warning)
Image

User avatar
trailgumby
Posts: 13170
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:30 pm
Location: Northern Beaches, Sydney
Contact:

Re: Punishment pass

Postby trailgumby » Thu Dec 31, 2015 6:59 pm

kb wrote:(OT: and magpie approach warning)

:lol: :lol: "Bandit at 6'oclock high!"

User avatar
Xplora
Posts: 8272
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2010 12:33 am
Location: TL;DR

Re: Punishment pass

Postby Xplora » Thu Dec 31, 2015 8:13 pm

Red 4 standing by

User avatar
trailgumby
Posts: 13170
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:30 pm
Location: Northern Beaches, Sydney
Contact:

Re: Punishment pass

Postby trailgumby » Thu Dec 31, 2015 10:35 pm

From earlier today near Narrabeen.

May have taken exception to me using the shared path to get around the red light before popping back onto the road, or he may just have been channeling Toad of Toad Hall (the motoring-addicted amphibian from a children's series from a different time). His appearance certainly fit the illustrations from the book - unfortunately not visible from the seatpost camera.


User avatar
Mulger bill
Super Mod
Super Mod
Posts: 29011
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 2:41 pm
Location: Sunbury Vic

Re: Punishment pass

Postby Mulger bill » Thu Dec 31, 2015 11:29 pm

trailgumby wrote:From earlier today near Narrabeen.

May have taken exception to me using the shared path to get around the red light before popping back onto the road, or he may just have been channeling Toad of Toad Hall (the motoring-addicted amphibian from a children's series from a different time). His appearance certainly fit the illustrations from the book - unfortunately not visible from the seatpost camera.


Some random YouTube commenter wrote:Hurr, your jist jellis cos his godda noice car...
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
London Boy 29/12/2011

User avatar
Lukeyboy
Posts: 3457
Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 2:38 am

Re: Punishment pass

Postby Lukeyboy » Fri Jan 01, 2016 12:22 pm

The driver who was driving her mothers car claimed I was weaving all over the road hence why she had to quickly get past (incident (AT) 0.53). She very very quickly backtracked when the officer informed her that the cyclist had front and rear video cameras showing what she was saying didn't match up with what happened in the video evidence. No action was taken against the driver.


So a few weeks back barriers were put up in the shoulder for the train station to protect the workers who were making a new entrance which would enable the construction of a new road overpass and new bikeway as part of the Gateway North works. Cyclists use the shoulder on this part of road as a defacto bike lane. I had my concerns about the barrier and the traffic so I was out doing a few runs and gathering some video evidence for the local bug. Most of the drivers were... very respectable.



As you can see the ute changed lanes and the white hatchback slowed right down and then changed lanes. That happened the majority of the time I was there but there were still morons that wanted to buzz past (I somehow didn't copy across the videos and only made shortcuts for some reason so I don't have those close passes on camera). Just as I was going to compile a write up for the local bug there was a very serious incident involving a garbage truck and a cyclist. So I went back with even more front, rear and helmet cameras with proper hd instead of the old blurry fly6 footage.

As I was going past with all these cameras running the first a car goes past pretty close with the drivers head down looking at the gear stick and almost running onto the shoulder when the road kinked right. Followed by the falcon driver refusing to change lanes. And to top it off this ute driver.
Image

No response from the police about this. I'll give them until next week to get back to me considering it was reported just before christmas and all the public holidays.

About 900m further along I had another close pass which was also reported on the same day.



The email exchange is pretty much:

blah blah blah... that the incident you were involved in has been investigated. We thank you for you report into this matter as it allows us to educate drivers as well as keep more people safe on the roads.


blah blah blah... confirm what incident this is in relation to with the Q-Prime number and what/if any action was taken against the driver?


blah blah blah... the driver was warned of the rules relating to cyclists. No further action has been taken at this time.


blah blah blah... Thank you for the reply. May I ask as to why the driver was only cautioned. I ask because blah blah blah The minimum safe distance for overtaking cyclists has been around for more than 18 months now which had large news media attention prior to and after the implementation of it becoming law along with promotion campaigns in video, billboard, news paper and online from the Queensland State Government and cycling advocacy groups. Other State Governments and Territories have also now blah blah blah


I'm still chasing this up.

softy
Posts: 1665
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 3:44 pm

Re: Punishment pass

Postby softy » Fri Jan 01, 2016 7:34 pm

Mulger bill wrote:
trailgumby wrote:From earlier today near Narrabeen.

May have taken exception to me using the shared path to get around the red light before popping back onto the road, or he may just have been channeling Toad of Toad Hall (the motoring-addicted amphibian from a children's series from a different time). His appearance certainly fit the illustrations from the book - unfortunately not visible from the seatpost camera.


Some random YouTube commenter wrote:Hurr, your jist jellis cos his godda noice car...


i think it is just a cyclist hater, ie, get off the road and out of my way.

User avatar
trailgumby
Posts: 13170
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:30 pm
Location: Northern Beaches, Sydney
Contact:

Re: Punishment pass

Postby trailgumby » Fri Jan 01, 2016 7:38 pm

Lukeyboy wrote:The driver who was driving her mothers car claimed I was weaving all over the road hence why she had to quickly get past (incident (AT) 0.53). She very very quickly backtracked when the officer informed her that the cyclist had front and rear video cameras showing what she was saying didn't match up with what happened in the video evidence. No action was taken against the driver.

No action? Seriously? That looked well inside the metre.

I can tell you that my measuring tape says a Commodore measures 2.1m from mirror tip to mirror tip, which is wider than that thing she was driving (Skoda?). There was roughly half her car width between her mirror and white line. Of that gap, you were taking a minimum of 50cm knuckle to knuckle, but looked to be further out from the white line than half a metre, which would put your right side knuckles and elbow roughly 3/4 of a metre into the space she's left you. Very close indeed.

The math is not complex.

"I pay registration"... but she's driving her mother's car? Makes perfect sense. :lol:

User avatar
jules21
Posts: 10371
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:14 pm
Location: deep in the pain cave

Re: Punishment pass

Postby jules21 » Fri Jan 01, 2016 7:58 pm

that's ridiculous she wasn't fined. there's no reason to go easy on her.

softy
Posts: 1665
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 3:44 pm

Re: Punishment pass

Postby softy » Fri Jan 01, 2016 8:58 pm

Why people quote the registration argument is beyond me.

It is like me saying skateboards and rollerskates don't wear helmets, why should I!

Ummmmm, no matter how much you don't like it, it is the law. The law says a bicycle is a vehicle and is legally allowed to be on the road. Suck it up lady, write to your member of parliament if that is what you believe!

I don't believe helmets should be mandatory but guess what, i wear a helmet because it is the law. What we may believe means nothing.

The law is the rules, not rubbish you read on FB or discuss with your friends!

rant over......

User avatar
outnabike
Posts: 2136
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:53 pm
Location: Melbourne Vic

Re: Punishment pass

Postby outnabike » Thu Jan 07, 2016 8:48 am

Definitely a contender here, and me with no cameras. But I carry a pencil and paper to note details of rego etc.
Sent email to police and bus company same afternoon after finding out the bus was owned by Grenda's - Ventura.

No reply from either of them..... :) Hard to believe.

I was riding my bike and had to stay clear of the cars to prevent a possible dooring. So I had to get a bit more central. I saw the bus in the rear mirror but we were not far from the stud road intersection with no vehicles waiting and lights were all red. Both for a left turn and straight ahead.
Your bus overtook me with very little room being given to me, and almost knocked me off my bicycle. I intend to go to the police on the matter as it was definitely a purposeful action on the part of the driver. And I can tell you why.
1/ First off, whilst I may have given the impression of riding a bit central it is good and recommended riding on my part to stay away from a possibility of a car door being opened into my path. There were many parked cars, so safety for me is paramount.
2/ We were both approaching red lights and there was no advantage for the driver to close pass me. We both had to know that we would have to stop.
3/ The oncoming Traffic was nil, so the driver, despite the foregoing could easily have afforded me more space. Yet he deliberately close passed me in the fashion known in cycling as a “Punishment Pass” to teach me a lesson. There can be nothing more obvious in his actions.
4/ He proved and corroborated his actions as we both had to stop at the traffic light with me right beside the entry door on the left of the bus. I spoke loudly to the driver to get his attention and he of course refused to look at me staring straight ahead. So I banged on the door, then he looked my way. I yelled “Congratulations you beat me to a red light.
His response was “You were in the middle of the road” and he waved his hand at me in a dismissive manner. So despite has having clear room on the right to overtake, facing a red light ahead that he knew he had to stop at, he close passed me on my bike and put my life in danger, due to his thinking “bike in the middle of my road”. That he makes clear.
I am sending a copy immediately to the police at The greater Dandenong Highway patrol, as well as your office.
Vivente World Randonneur complete with panniers

myforwik
Posts: 486
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:08 pm

Re: Punishment pass

Postby myforwik » Fri Jan 08, 2016 5:25 pm

Unless the bus drives over you, they won't care....

These drivers deliberatly drive you into the gutter. it is a matter of time before you hit some surface discontinuity at edge of the road and go under the wheels if you keep letting them bully you left.

I always claim lane by riding in middle, If not the right, and if some idiot tries to lane straddle as we approach lights, stick my arm out. Hand signals often work. i do not give any chance for a driver to even think they can pass in my lane.

But being forced to move left is the worst, i would probably stop, bail from bike, and let it go under the wheels than be pushed into the gutter.

User avatar
g-boaf
Posts: 9773
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:11 pm

Re: Punishment pass

Postby g-boaf » Fri Jan 08, 2016 5:33 pm

Lukeyboy wrote:The driver who was driving her mothers car claimed I was weaving all over the road hence why she had to quickly get past (incident (AT) 0.53). She very very quickly backtracked when the officer informed her that the cyclist had front and rear video cameras showing what she was saying didn't match up with what happened in the video evidence. No action was taken against the driver.


The book deserved to be thrown at her. What a charming lady. The video camera quickly equalises everything. :)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot]