Fore/Aft cleat position - HELP !!!!

[MichaelB]

Just bought a new pair of shoes (lightly used, but new to me), BONT Vaypor S in the same size as my other BONT shoes.

BUT ....

The positioning of the cleat anchor bolts are such that the shoe sits abou 10mm further fwd and inboard more.

Is this an issue ? I know that some people think mid-foot cleats are the bees knees, but am a bit non-plussed why the cleat mounting location would be different between shoes from the same brand and size ?

Please, no BONT bashing, I'm just trying to understand the potential impact (good or bad) of the difference if the cleats sit further rearward, and whether it will make SFA difference (similar to 2.5mm difference in cranbk length).

TIA

[MichaelB]

Here are some pics to show the differences between the shoes. The one without cleats is the Vaypor S (black with white stripe) , and the one with is the Vaypor (the older buckle version)

[find_bruce]

I am a bit confused Michael - is it the location of the grid you are worried about, or that you can't position the cleat in the same position ?

10mm difference in cleat position fwd & inboard makes a difference to me, BUT I would not be worried about the location of the mounts if I can still get the same position

[MichaelB]

I am a bit confused Michael - is it the location of the grid you are worried about, or that you can't position the cleat in the same position ?

10mm difference in cleat position fwd & inboard makes a difference to me, BUT I would not be worried about the location of the mounts if I can still get the same position

There are two key differences in the shoes ;
The Vaypor S are shorter
The Vaypor S cleat anchor screws are positioned such that if taken to the extremities, the shoe is further inboard and further fwd. I cannot match my existing position.

Side to side is not a major issue (just means shoe covers will probably rub the crank)

Fore/Aft - no idea if it's a deal breaker or not

[rodneycc]

Further back than normal I normally have no problems with. Further forward than normal I'm not so keen on. But its the side to side that I have REAL problems with (medial and lateral knee ligaments complain big time).

[MichaelB]

Further back than normal I normally have no problems with. Further forward than normal I'm not so keen on. But its the side to side that I have REAL problems with (medial and lateral knee ligaments complain big time).

Interesting.

Found some online stuff from Steve Hogg (can't seem to print - maybe that's how he gets people to subscribe) that is complex, but so detailed I reckon I need a weekend to start digesting it. Then there is a cut-down version from Bicycling magazine.

Steve Hogg - Power to the Pedal - Cleat position

Bicycling Aus article on Cleat Positioning by Steve Hogg

Basically, in a nutshell, the rule of thumb for me (EU46 size) is to have the ball of my foot 11-14mm behind the pedal axle, so the new shoes should be close to that.

Time to read a bit more and start measuring.

Happy to still get further feedback re cleats set more rearward - did you chnage and how did it help/hinder ?

[MichaelB]

Ended up buying one of the Steve Hogg Q&A online books for the princely sum of $11. 237 pages re feet, cleats, shoes & pedals

Bit of light Xmas reading !!!!

Seems the go is get as close as midfoot as you can, unless you are a sprinter !!

[find_bruce]

Good call - IIRC Steve Hogg has some suggestions not just on your ideal position but also some ways to achieve that outside the ordinary adjustment.

[rodneycc]

I will have to measure them to see, I'm actually a size 46 eu as well (sidi) (and are speedplay cleats any different?). I actually have then as far back as they go.

Edit: even with my cleats further back Ive been told my pedal stroke is still a bit "pointy toed".

[biker jk]

Further back than normal I normally have no problems with. Further forward than normal I'm not so keen on. But its the side to side that I have REAL problems with (medial and lateral knee ligaments complain big time).

Interesting.

Found some online stuff from Steve Hogg (can't seem to print - maybe that's how he gets people to subscribe) that is complex, but so detailed I reckon I need a weekend to start digesting it. Then there is a cut-down version from Bicycling magazine.

Steve Hogg - Power to the Pedal - Cleat position

Bicycling Aus article on Cleat Positioning by Steve Hogg

Basically, in a nutshell, the rule of thumb for me (EU46 size) is to have the ball of my foot 11-14mm behind the pedal axle, so the new shoes should be close to that.

Time to read a bit more and start measuring.

Happy to still get further feedback re cleats set more rearward - did you chnage and how did it help/hinder ?

It's the ball of the foot 11-14mm in front of the pedal axle.

[MichaelB]

Easy to get the fore/aft mixed up !!!

[MichaelB]

well, I sat down last night and did some actual measurements, and learnt two valuable insights. One is MEASURE, and the other is that the cleat position relative to the heel of the shoe is different on the Vaypor S when compared to the Vaypor/Blitz.

The overall length is the same (within a couple of mm) which surprised me, as when I looked before and with the above pic, it's different. I put that down to the fact one shoe had the cleat fitted, and the Vaypor S didn't.

w.r.t. the cleat anchor nut positioning, the Vaypor S a/nuts were clearly 10mm further towards the heel when compared with the older Vaypor, and the Blitz.

Tried to find my older Sidi shoes, as I think they are different again, but couldn't find them.


So, now armed with some 'Steve Hogg' knowledge and insight, I will do some reading over the weekend and see if I can set up my cleats further rearward !!

StS.

[warthog1]

I'm glad you brought this up. I've always had mine further back, as far as they'll go actually.
Otherwise I used to get calf cramps.
Anyway they've been like that for 10 years now. I'm glad to know Mr Hogg reckons they should be back.
I like a bit of positive affirmation. Makes me feel I knew what I was doing even though that's not the case

[MichaelB]

I'm glad you brought this up. I've always had mine further back, as far as they'll go actually.
Otherwise I used to get calf cramps.
Anyway they've been like that for 10 years now. I'm glad to know Mr Hogg reckons they should be back.
I like a bit of positive affirmation. Makes me feel I knew what I was doing even though that's not the case

Any idea of what your measurements are ?

[warthog1]

No sorry. I've got shimano, sidi and garneau shoes. Sz 45.
the cleats are all the way back on all of them.

[slowK]

Two perhaps peripheral considerations:

1.I have had achilles tendonitis (from running) and have been advised (and read in several places) that positioning the cleats more rearward/midfoot may help lessen the load on the achilles.

2. May not be a factor for you, but the rearward cleat position also puts the front of your shoes further forward, which may result in toe overlap/toe strike with the front wheel. It's more of an issue with smaller frames.

[warthog1]

Yeah I get a bit of toe overlap on the cervelo. 56.5 cm tt I think it is.

[rodneycc]

Yeah I give up measuring ball of foot to spindle. I can't get it accurate enough to get anywhere near 11-14mm. Its hard enough measuring 11cm centre of cleat to end of shoe.

[MichaelB]

Yeah I give up measuring ball of foot to spindle. I can't get it accurate enough to get anywhere near 11-14mm. Its hard enough measuring 11cm centre of cleat to end of shoe.

May be the same and just shove them rearwards and get the angle right.

I'll give it a go though !!!

[rodneycc]

Yeah thats what I do. Less problems with them further back.
What I hate is when they loosen themselves and move (normally after walking a lot on them). I had this recently and were getting a sore knee but I didn't realise for a couple of weeks it was the cleats (as I was checking seat height and all sorts of other things). I only picked it up when cleaning them that the cleat was more forward on one shoe than the other on my sore knee foot.

[Abby]

Just echo-ing some of the above - as a (very) general rule of thumb, it's better to have your cleats too far rearward than too far forward. Hence the advice by many to shove them as far back as you can, and then slowly march them forward mm by mm if you want to try that out.

I'm an 'as far back as they'll go' guy, and that's always worked well for me...

[eeksll]

Yeah I give up measuring ball of foot to spindle. I can't get it accurate enough to get anywhere near 11-14mm. Its hard enough measuring 11cm centre of cleat to end of shoe.

May be the same and just shove them rearwards and get the angle right.

I'll give it a go though !!!

this is also what I do

[MichaelB]

So.

Whist my daufghter was at soccer training Wed night, armed with my shoes (all three pairs), bits & bobs, I followed the steps in Method 2 from the Steve Hogg link above. This is where the position is based on the average distance from teh heel between the 1st & 5th really long foot bone name that I can't and wont try and spell.

I must have 'squarish feet', as the difference for me was 7mm left & 8mm right.

Shoes were marked as Steve described (fark, that was painful as I did the cable tie bit onb both sides !!!! ) and then cleats adjusted.

Overall they move back about 10mm from where they were. Here is a before & after pic

Before :



After :


Now to see if they make any difference. The bit in Steve's writeup that resonated with me was the heel drop stuff when seated hard climbing.