Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

human909
Posts: 9065
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:48 am

Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby human909 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:32 pm

find_bruce wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:Is this inquest a prosecution vs defense situation?

No Mike they a coroner's inquiry is very different.


While a coronial inquiry should be simply about getting the fact straight, sadly there are always vested interests and people's own bias involved. From the snippets of reporting we've had we can clearly see the police are on the back foot and being defensive regarding the inquiry. From the reporting I've read the police have been borderline combative to dispute viewpoints other than the one they've held. It is human nature to be defensive of positions taken, but it certainly isn't a good look for the AFP.

Example:
"Police re-creations showed the bike was "virtually indistinguishable" in the dark, with the rear red light on Hall's bicycle difficult to see."

"Senior Constable Potts said he wouldn't describe the strip as illuminating but agreed the bag had been on the bike."


The former flies in the face of REAL video evidence as opposed to the police 're-creation'. The latter just is evasive and defensive answering of questions. And from what I can tell the police 're-creation' long after the event, it smacks of preparation for the coronial inquest rather than investigation relating to potential charges.

fat and old
Posts: 3710
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:06 pm
Location: Mill Park

Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby fat and old » Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:19 am

TBH I find this quite different from my own experiences in CC. In both situations the family of the deceased wanted blood. The first had the police basically supporting this but no charges were laid before, during or after. The second had the police sitting on the fence. again, no charges. There was no hint of the police "taking the side" of the other party.


And from what I can tell the police 're-creation' long after the event, it smacks of preparation for the coronial inquest rather than investigation relating to potential charges.


Isn't that to be expected? It is a Coronial inquest, not a trial?


User avatar
queequeg
Posts: 5374
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:09 am

Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby queequeg » Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:16 am

fat and old wrote:
And from what I can tell the police 're-creation' long after the event, it smacks of preparation for the coronial inquest rather than investigation relating to potential charges.


Isn't that to be expected? It is a Coronial inquest, not a trial?


One thing I can't figure out is why this particular incident was referred to the Coroner, compared to various other similar incidents that are not. Generally in NSW, for example, there is a dedicated CIU Team that will come out to any traffic incident where there is a fatalty and conduct a thourough investigation, such as what appears to be happening with the driver that hit Jason Lowndes (https://www.bendigoadvertiser.com.au/st ... des-crash/). They have even been back to the site conducting additional measurements etc, and there is no suggestion that it's been referred to the Coroner to investigate the circumstances. In both the Mike Hall case and the one above, it's conclusive that cause of death was getting hit from behind by a distracted driver "who didn't see them".

I don't know whether the investigator in the AFP is part of a Crash Investigation Unit. That hasn't been mentioned in any of the reports, but it does seem that the reconstruction alone had many flaws, and I find it puzzling that a reconstruction of the incident was done without someone actually riding a bicycle in the dark with the same clothing/lighting setup at that location (on a closed road obviously) so that the visibility issue could be tested properly.
'11 Lynskey Cooper CX, '00 Hillbrick Steel Racing (Total Rebuild '10), '15 Cervelo S5

User avatar
find_bruce
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 7971
Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 8:42 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby find_bruce » Thu Sep 27, 2018 9:36 am

queequeg wrote:One thing I can't figure out is why this particular incident was referred to the Coroner, compared to various other similar incidents that are not.

Every single death from a vehicle collision must be reported to the Coroner & there is usually an autopsy. It is then up to the coroner to decide whether or not to conduct an inquest - typically they consider do they know the identity of the deceased and the date, place, circumstances and medical cause of death, but they don't publish any reasons why they decide whether or not to hold an inquest.

Sometimes an inquest is held because of a request from the family or interested parties. It can also be because the police investigation was not enough to determine the circumstances. There are also circumstances where a coroner's inquest is not held, relevantly where a person has been charged with an offence - hence there will be no inquest into Jason Lowndes death because the driver has been charged with dangerous driving causing death. Occasionally there will be an inquest after a person has been found not guilty - eg the Bowraville murders that have been in the news lately.

The police investigation in this case certainly seems inadequate, starting from the failure to secure evidence of the clothing, gear bag etc, the failure to even consider mobile phone use or other causes of distraction & the unquestioning acceptance of SMIDSY as a valid excuse. Even in preparing for the inquest the Police have done a pathetic attempt at "re-creating" how visible he was, let alone collecting evidence such as the videos.

fat and old
Posts: 3710
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:06 pm
Location: Mill Park

Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby fat and old » Thu Sep 27, 2018 10:21 am

This comment by Ed Hore is puzzling

We tried to also submit a 1-minute video of Mike Hall riding into Cooma filmed less than 12-hours before he died,” he continued. “The importance of that video was that it showed his high-vis leggings and reflective clothing, plus the brightness of his lights and effectiveness of his reflectors. But even though this was filmed only 12-hrs before he was killed, this was not accepted as evidence.”

Declining to comment upon why this video was not accepted Hore said.....

99


What’s the mystery? Is the reason known?

Edit: having now read the CC wrap up, which quotes the Coroner as stating the killers evidence would not be of use as English is his second language I say W T F?????? If the fella was applying for welfare we the taxpayers would be funding a translator. But he kills someone and gets a pass on testifying due to language (among other things)????? How does this work? Hey, coroner.... I’ll pay for the interpreter, no problems.

human909
Posts: 9065
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:48 am

Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby human909 » Thu Sep 27, 2018 10:52 am

find_bruce wrote:Even in preparing for the inquest the Police have done a pathetic attempt at "re-creating" how visible he was, let alone collecting evidence such as the videos.


It would seem that the police collected evidence to suit their predetermined view of SMIDSY. They then collected evidence to argue that case to the coroner. Surely they should be an impartial? But it seems that they did the re-creation FOR supporting their case at the inquiry rather than as an genuine criminal investigation. (From what I understand they did the re-creation AFTER deciding not to charge and before the inquest.)

User avatar
AUbicycles
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 13292
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:14 am
Location: Sydney & Frankfurt
Contact:

Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby AUbicycles » Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:51 pm

I am concerned how misleading the reconstruction was. In motion, visibility is significantly improved along with biomotion and the reflectors on the bike and body moving (particularly legs).

The driver attention and distraction is an issue - the reflectors are also bright and despite the motion and rear lights, the distracted driver did not appropriately distinguish the bike rider. Trying to describe it thoughtfully, there is other visual information (reflectors) that compete for driver awareness.


On the attendance of the driver, 'suggestability' was mentioned which I interpret as a continually changing story which makes it difficult any useful input.


In summary, this is frustrating and disappointing as it appears that there is a focus on reducing the accountability of the driver.


As a practical recommendation (in no way an insinuation) - the challenge of a bike rider is to be as visible as possible. In addition to the lights and reflective gear, I highly recommend running both a steady rear light and a flashing rear light to send additional visual signals to motorists.

User avatar
baabaa
Posts: 848
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2009 8:47 am

Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby baabaa » Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:05 pm

I consider the issue of viz very important. I recall that morning (but coming in from the west of Canberra and in a car and not by bike) very well in that it was cool, clear and fog free. As I was dot watching I knew that people would be on the road in and around the Monaro and recall noting to myself that the people on bikes that I did see during that week, with both flashing and solid rear lighting, were clear and easy to see at a distance. When it is foggy, and that drive between Cooma and Canberra often is, you can still make out a bike better with a solid and flashing rear as you tend to make a quite eerie travelling red light haze.
The number of people who now commute between Cooma and Canberra makes it like a high speed conga line of cars during peak hours. It is not an simple drive and therefore at the end of the week driver fatigue would be an issue with anyone that does it on a daily basis.
I have also biked this route but would stay off the road during driver commuting hours with good (sun) light as cars travel so close to each other that anyone tailgating a large vehicle will just not see you until the car in front moves across to give road space. Any weary and then a truck distracted driver on that busy part of the highway would not improve your chance of being seen until the last second even if you had the brightest of rear lighting and reflectors.
I wouldn’t want to be the police who have to deal with this case.

Jmuzz
Posts: 567
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:42 pm

Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby Jmuzz » Thu Sep 27, 2018 10:06 pm

fat and old wrote:Edit: having now read the CC wrap up, which quotes the Coroner as stating the killers evidence would not be of use as English is his second language I say W T F?????? If the fella was applying for welfare we the taxpayers would be funding a translator. But he kills someone and gets a pass on testifying due to language (among other things)????? How does this work? Hey, coroner.... I’ll pay for the interpreter, no problems.


Is the guy just a nobody immigrant, or a diplomats family member?
That would make a lot of pieces fall into place.

Jmuzz
Posts: 567
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:42 pm

Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby Jmuzz » Thu Sep 27, 2018 10:15 pm

queequeg wrote:One thing I can't figure out is why this particular incident was referred to the Coroner, compared to various other similar incidents that are not.


The fact that this was an organised (however loosely) race event makes it a much bigger deal than an individual.

Plus the victim was international, so home country would tend to demand more answers than usual.

It also got a lot more media attention worldwide than other similar incidents do.

User avatar
trailgumby
Posts: 13217
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:30 pm
Location: Northern Beaches, Sydney
Contact:

Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby trailgumby » Thu Sep 27, 2018 10:23 pm

Referring early deaths to the coroner is not unusual. The fact that Mikewas an internationally renowned athlete probably gave it a push along.

The federal police could not have screwed up the investigation more if they were trying.

fat and old
Posts: 3710
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:06 pm
Location: Mill Park

Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby fat and old » Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:40 pm

Jmuzz wrote:
fat and old wrote:Edit: having now read the CC wrap up, which quotes the Coroner as stating the killers evidence would not be of use as English is his second language I say W T F?????? If the fella was applying for welfare we the taxpayers would be funding a translator. But he kills someone and gets a pass on testifying due to language (among other things)????? How does this work? Hey, coroner.... I’ll pay for the interpreter, no problems.


Is the guy just a nobody immigrant, or a diplomats family member?
That would make a lot of pieces fall into place.


P-plater Shegu Bobb, 19 at the time, was driving the car at the speed limit of 100km/h and told police he didn't see Hall until it was too late.

He was excused from giving evidence at the inquest after being described as "suggestible" in police interviews about the incident.

Coroner Bernadette Boss noted English was a second language for Mr Bobb, who was born in Sierra Leone and moved to Australia in 2005.

Dr Boss said he was a very vulnerable person who would add little to proceedings.

"The quality of his evidence would be very poor," she said.


Just some bloke by the looks of it. A very vulnerable person :roll:

human909
Posts: 9065
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:48 am

Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby human909 » Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:37 am

fat and old wrote:Just some bloke by the looks of it. A very vulnerable person :roll:

And he might be a very vulnerable person. Quite distraught and aghast at the entire thing. But you know, that is what happens to many people when they kill somebody through their own driving mistakes.

It is a tragedy from both sides. But in other cases that doesn't stop the police from doing their job.

If those killed are a family out for a drive then then you will get questioned and most likely the book thrown at you. But if it is a cyclist then the police seem to only be concerned about the perpetrator.

There is an underlying culture of blame towards cyclists that is ever present in the police force and the broader motoring community.

Jmuzz
Posts: 567
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:42 pm

Re: Inaugural Indian Pacific Wheel Race

Postby Jmuzz » Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:40 am

A mate was booked for neg driving out that way because a kangaroo took him out sideways on a motorbike.
In hospital with a busted leg and police said "there was a crash resulting in injury so somebody has to be punished".

Like anyone can avoid a kargaroo shooting out of the scrub headbutting them from the side while airborne.

But actually kill a cyclist, say you thought they were a kangaroo even, no charge at all.
Doesn't make sense does it.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: P!N20